Stoking The 1897 For CAS

[Hells Comin]

 

It does take a bit of practice. Try rolling your 97 over a little when you’re grabbing your shells so that the loading port is a little more horizontal and  then load one an shoot, roll it a bit load one and shoot, I found that I fumbled shells a lot less once I had done it a few times.

This is what I do and it works best for me. But a few times more like a 1000 times.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

Heck, at this point when I'm shooting my 97 it's all I can do to keep from pulling shells from my belt and hucking them over the top of my gun.

 

Hee hee hee.

 

 

I have never had that problem.   Of course, I shoot it left handed...  

 

[Baltimore Ed]

 

They were banned for good reason. I saw the safety aspect when one fails. It was bloody and the shooter could have been seriously maimed when the bolt flew backwards into his nose.

Allie, I’ve been at 2 matches where Henry rifles [the original ones] had magazine detonations and one where a shooter blew up his 3rd gen Colt sa with an intentional but accidental overload. He either used the correct data and wrong powder or the correct powder but wrong data but either way last time I looked Henry rifles and handloads were still sass legal. Shooter safety was not behind the outlawing of the hammer marlin, the WB bowed under the legal pressure of Marlin who for years [after cas was created and these old guns started showing up] had sent notices to gunsmiths NOT to repair these sgs. I use a Model 24 still though not as often as I used to. I’ll admit that Marlin sg shooters were a minority [one other cowboy in my club had an engraved 17 or 19 that he used every month] but it still don’t make it right.

[Yul Lose]

 

This is what I do and it works best for me. But a few times more like a 1000 times.

Yer a slow lerner.

[McCandless]

Seems like a lot of people want to shoot the game every which way except the way it's written.  I'll stick to SASS matches played by SASS rules.  

We all do what's fun for ourselves.  I joined SASS to play that game, not WASA, a blend of WB/CAS or a mix of some other rules.

A club that allowed the '97s to be fully stoked off the clock, running against empty SxS's?  No, I wouldn't shoot there a second time.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

Allie, I’ve been at 2 matches where Henry rifles [the original ones] had magazine detonations and one where a shooter blew up his 3rd gen Colt sa with an intentional but accidental overload. He either used the correct data and wrong powder or the correct powder but wrong data but either way last time I looked Henry rifles and handloads were still sass legal. Shooter safety was not behind the outlawing of the hammer marlin, the WB bowed under the legal pressure of Marlin who for years [after cas was created and these old guns started showing up] had sent notices to gunsmiths NOT to repair these sgs. I use a Model 24 still though not as often as I used to. I’ll admit that Marlin sg shooters were a minority [one other cowboy in my club had an engraved 17 or 19 that he used every month] but it still don’t make it right.

 

I know what I saw and I've read the reasons the Marlin SG was banned by SASS.  Please read this, https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/292141-why-your-marlin-1898-shotgun-is-dangerous-the-video/

[Baltimore Ed]

Thanks for the Marlin info Allie, I’ve been to Rusty Marlins site and know about the safety checks. I’ve never owned a 1898 preferring the later models. Shooting old firearms is dangerous, reloading is dangerous, driving to a match is dangerous. And nobody’s gonna get out of here alive. Have a good thanksgiving leftovers weekend.

[Griff]

 

When as 97 is open and empty, the action must be closed before it can be loaded.   Plus, if you drop a live shell into the chamber, and close the action, the gun is now cocked loaded and ready to fire.   Stuffing ammo into the loading port just strikes me a potentially very dangerous.   I think this might have something to do with why so many 97 shooters don't bother to stuff one into the magazine while one is chambered, even though it is allowed.   I know it's why I don't.

Actually, this was the way all cowboys did it prior to about 1988 or 1989.  Load one, stuff one.  I don't recall exactly when I first saw someone loading them singly, but I have always credited  (or blamed as my mood changes), Tequila and Evil Roy for popularizing the method.  They were among the very first to successfully employ this much speedier technique.

 

But, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the load one/stuff one technique... in the right hands, it can still be effective.  

[Hendo]

 

 

Hee hee hee.

 

 

I have never had that problem.   Of course, I shoot it left handed...  

 

Yup, I'm a lefty, too. Still hucked one over the top. My first match was with a borrowed 97 and seeing how I didn't have a shotgun belt, I was allowed to set my shells up on the table. On a 4+ stage, I got the first two rounds downrange and on target. For the third target, I reached down grabbed a shell, dropped it in, slammed the slide forward and click. I had grabbed one of the empties. Quickly, I shucked that sucker, grabbed another off the table, slammed the slide forward and click. I had either grabbed the other empty or the same one I had just shucked. I was laughing so hard at that point that the very next round I grabbed went right over the top of that shotgun and into the dirt.

[Baltimore Ed]

And one more thing while we’re talking. The smith in the video you posted is right about most of it but is incorrect about the inertia block. The purpose of it was to prevent the gun firing accidentally while it was out of battery if a hang fire shell occurred. Hang fires were fairly common with paper shells and bp I guess. The bolt would be locked in battery by the block until the shooter waited the recommended length of time and then would unlock the block and eject the defective shell. If there were no inertia block the shooter could naturally unlock the bolt by cycling the slide and the hangfire  could then go off harming the shooter. The other thing he says is that if the button was accidentally pushed the bolt was out of battery. The block keeps the slide from moving the IN battery bolt until the block is manually or inertially moved but can not make the gun go out of battery unless the slide moves. I just went out back and chambered a shell, unlocked the inertia block by depressing the button, cocked the hammer and safely fired my still IN battery Model 24. As complicated as they are they have fewer parts than a ‘97. In good shape, clean, safety checked and with cas loads they’re as safe as any other antique firearm we play with. 

[Captain Clark]

 

Shooting old firearms is Can be dangerous, reloading is Can be dangerous, driving to a match is Can be dangerous. And nobody’s gonna get out of here alive. Have a good thanksgiving leftovers weekend.

These activities in themselves aren’t dangerous, but they can become if not done with a bit of skill and common sense! Just cause someone wants to be ornery doesn’t make them skilled in verifying whether problem firearms are safe for use. Really if you want to chance your own well being is your call, but the TO, spotters, brass picker, etc standing nearby might not want to get caught up in the potential self disintegrating shotgun spectacle! 
 

Like it was stated that nobody is getting out alive...... just don’t take collateral casualties with you
 

[Baltimore Ed]

I’ll have to respectfully disagree, the danger is always present in the activities that I mentioned. It’s when we become complacent about the danger is when we get into trouble. Whether the nonchalant attitude about safety comes from repetition, laziness or being careless it will eventually get us hurt. Shooting guns and driving cars are most definitely dangerous. It’s through our knowledge and skill that we mitigate the dangers and arrive at the match, shoot our reloads and drive home again.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

The only thing I will say about the Marlin 98 is that I do believe that they have some potentially very serious problems.  I also believe that these problems CAN be corrected.  As to if one that has been corrected can be used in our game goes, well, there's the kicker, has it been corrected?   This is a legitimate concern.

 

I find them to be very interesting looking guns, and I would like to have one.   I have seen 2 over the years.   The first one I saw failed all the safety checks, so I put it back and walked away.   The second had a trigger lock on it, and the store refused to remove it to allow me to do the safety checks.  Nor would they take the gun out back and perform the checks themselves, so I walked away.   Which is sad cuz this one was a later model one that had been issued to some police department, and I had every reason to believe it was in proper working order.   But being unable to check it I was not going to take the chance.

 

And to be honest, even if it DID pass all the checks, I would still take it to a smith who knows those guns and have him check it.

 

Part of the larger problem is the "The 97 is the only allowed pump shotgun" rule.   This rule takes out not only the Marlin, but the Spencer, the Burgess, the 93 and the 93/97.    With the first three shotguns, if you use black powder and properly length shells, they are perfectly safe to fire, just like original 87s that require the same ammo restriction.   And of course you can have the chambers and forcing cones [I am under the impression that those are not the same thing.  Please correct me if I am wrong] lengthened you can use modern length shells in them.   People I know and respect also say you can use light smokeless rounds in them, and 87s, but given how many of the Spencers at least have Damascus barrels, I don't believe I would try it.   As far as the 93-97 goes, I don't understand why it is not allowed, and it should be with no qualifiers.   

But that's just my opinion.  These vintage shotguns, most of which are bonafide antiques, are not allowed.   There are lot of guns that are of the era that are not allowed to be used in our game.   Some would only fit in various side matches.  Some could, perhaps, be used as main match guns.   But according to the rules they can't be.   Or there are some guns that can be used, but only in ways that don't make much sense. 

 

There are also a few guns that are not of the era, but are sort of throwbacks to it, that are perfectly fine in our game.  In some ways this is a contradiction, but to me, it seems like a good thing as it gives gun makers a reason to make new old style guns that have been modernized.   But while they can do this for pistols and rifles, they can't for shotguns.  [93/97 for example.]

 

But those are the rules.   Until or unless we can get them to be changed, we have to operate within the existing rules.  

 

But that doesn't mean we can't talk about them and advocate for their change.

[Baltimore Ed]

As you say H.K. once a safety based policy/rule is enacted its forever like diamonds and what a handful of shooters want doesn’t count a hill of beans. We can still talk though remembering sass runs the show and we have to play their game their way. But I had honestly never heard of a Marlin oob accident in a cas match before and my # is 11754 so I’ve played this game for awhile. I will still play this great game but prefer WASA rules at my little club, however if my Rafe Covington rig comes together next year I might break down and go to a bigger cas club’s match. I haven’t been to a big monthly in years let alone a state or regional. The declining health of my wonderful wife of 42 years, Baltimore Ed’s Lolita kept me close to home.