Stoking The 1897 For CAS

[Yul Lose]

I spent he day with the Imperial Valley Rangers CAS club out west of El Centro today. It was their first match of the year as they don’t shoot during the warmest months of the year.18 of us came over from the San Diego and Riverside area and shot the match, afterwards we were treated to a turkey dinner feast back at the match directors place in Ocotillo with his wife and a few other shooters  wives preparing the wonderful food. There were 2 Pike (Wild Bunch) participants shooting the match so I asked the MD if Cowboy shooters could stoke their 97’s at the loading table with no penalty and he allowed it. SxS users could preload theirs at the SG staging table. Lots of fun, it worked out well.

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

When I am using my 10ga 87, I always ask if I can stoke it on the clock.  It surely isn't faster, but it is much more fun!  4 quick shots of 10ga BP sure clouds up the place!

[July Smith]

Stoking/loading a shotgun off the clock at the loading table?  How is this remotely fair for SxS shooters?

[Juan Solo]

44 minutes ago, July Smith said:

Stoking/loading a shotgun off the clock at the loading table?  How is this remotely fair for SxS shooters?

 

I'm assuming it was only 2 shells, and he said SxS could do it as well. If it was more than 2, then yeah thats a pretty big disadvantage

[July Smith]

15 minutes ago, Juan Solo said:

 

I'm assuming it was only 2 shells, and he said SxS could do it as well. If it was more than 2, then yeah thats a pretty big disadvantage

I see.  When Yul mentioned WB shooters I though he meant loading the pump gun up like they do off of the clock.

[Yul Lose]

1 hour ago, Juan Solo said:

 

I'm assuming it was only 2 shells, and he said SxS could do it as well. If it was more than 2, then yeah thats a pretty big disadvantage

I stoked 4. The other gunfighters were using 1897’s also.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Two years back (TN State, Oct 2017),  3 Wild Bunch shooters challenged 3 other 97 shooters to a 

speed event.

 

Wild Bunch team:  Cardboard Cowboy, Billy the Avenger, Slater.   They all stoked their 97's full.

Cowboy team:   Missouri Traveler, Red Knee, and Widder.   Our 97's were EMPTY, just like normal.

 

Each team had 21 KD's to engage.  

Remember, the WB Team already had 18 rounds loaded in their 97's.

The Cowboy Team loaded from their belts.   

ALL shooters were holding their 97's in hand at the starting shot.   And everyone was firing

simultaneously.   There wasn't a shoot and tag a team member.

 

When the smoke cleared, the Cowboy Team put their last target on the ground just a whisper quicker

than the WB Team.

 

My point is:  some ways might seem faster.  And some gun styles might seem faster, sometimes.

But on any given day, ya can't take anything for granted..... 

 

P.S. - and never bet against Red Knee or Missouri Traveler..... 

 

..........Widder

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Stoking of the 87s and 97s on the clock should always been allowed.  When on the clock stoking is allowed, 87s should be staged open and empty.  97s should be staged closed and empty.

 

Loading them off at the loading table should only be considered for specialty events.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Two years back (TN State, Oct 2017),  3 Wild Bunch shooters challenged 3 other 97 shooters to a 

speed event.

 

Wild Bunch team:  Cardboard Cowboy, Billy the Avenger, Slater.   They all stoked their 97's full.

Cowboy team:   Missouri Traveler, Red Knee, and Widder.   Our 97's were EMPTY, just like normal.

 

Each team had 21 KD's to engage.  

Remember, the WB Team already had 18 rounds loaded in their 97's.

The Cowboy Team loaded from their belts.   

ALL shooters were holding their 97's in hand at the starting shot.   And everyone was firing

simultaneously.   There wasn't a shoot and tag a team member.

 

When the smoke cleared, the Cowboy Team put their last target on the ground just a whisper quicker

than the WB Team.

 

My point is:  some ways might seem faster.  And some gun styles might seem faster, sometimes.

But on any given day, ya can't take anything for granted..... 

 

P.S. - and never bet against Red Knee or Missouri Traveler..... 

 

..........Widder

 

 

Or Widder, it was a sight to see!

 

Randy

[Yul Lose]

55 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Stoking of the 87s and 97s on the clock should always been allowed.  When on the clock stoking is allowed, 87s should be staged open and empty.  97s should be staged closed and empty.

 

Loading them off at the loading table should only be considered for specialty events.

It was a special event, it doesn’t happen often, nobody lost a Cadillac because of it.

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

A club I shot with allowed stoking 87's and 97' on the clock. Whenever there were four or more KD's, I would stoke my 87. I always told the TO and spotters to take a break and have a smoke while I stoked it.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Cajon  Cowboys let you stoke on the clock as SOP.

Many clubs will, if you ask the PM or MD.

OLG 

[Yul Lose]

14 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Cajon  Cowboys let you stoke on the clock as SOP.

Many clubs will, if you ask the PM or MD.

OLG 

Yep, do it all the time up there, Escondido is a 10 second procedural.

[Stump Water]

On 11/18/2019 at 7:34 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Stoking of the 87s and 97s on the clock should always been allowed.  When on the clock stoking is allowed, 87s should be staged open and empty.  97s should be staged closed and empty.

 

 

I agree with the first sentence and encourage everyone else to do it.   I agree with the second sentence.   I don't agree with the third sentence.

 

 

[Von Dutch, SASS # 7995]

On 11/18/2019 at 12:28 PM, July Smith said:

Stoking/loading a shotgun off the clock at the loading table?  How is this remotely fair for SxS shooters?

If you don't think its fair, buy a 97  or live with it!!!!!!!!

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

3 hours ago, Stump Water said:

 

I agree with the first sentence and encourage everyone else to do it.   I agree with the second sentence.   I don't agree with the third sentence.

 

 

 

Let me explain the third sentance.    To quote it...

 

  97s should be staged closed and empty.

 

This is actually the safest and most similar way to the other types of shotguns.   

 

A SxS is open and empty.   It can be instantly be picked up and safely loaded.

 

An 87 is open and empty.  It can instantly picked up and safely loaded.

 

When a 97 is closed and empty, it can instantly be picked up and safely loaded.

 

When as 97 is open and empty, the action must be closed before it can be loaded.   Plus, if you drop a live shell into the chamber, and close the action, the gun is now cocked loaded and ready to fire.   Stuffing ammo into the loading port just strikes me a potentially very dangerous.   I think this might have something to do with why so many 97 shooters don't bother to stuff one into the magazine while one is chambered, even though it is allowed.   I know it's why I don't.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

If you start with 2 in the SG(chamber empty or SxS open). It will level the field out.

Wish SASS would give the SG guidelines from W3G a try. 

OLG 

[Stump Water]

On 11/20/2019 at 3:26 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

I think this might have something to do with why so many 97 shooters don't bother to stuff one into the magazine while one is chambered, even though it is allowed.  

 

Of course there are the few exceptions, but '97 shooters don't load-one-stuff-one because it's slower than single loading.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

4 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

 

Of course there are the few exceptions, but '97 shooters don't load-one-stuff-one because it's slower than single loading.

 

That is also true.

 

But with enough practice, who knows.

 

For a while I experimented with load one, close the action, shoot, stuff 2, shoot shoot, load 1.   It really only works well if there are exactly 4 targets, and I did seem to be slightly faster with it than single loading all 4.   But you've really got to concentrate.  Maybe I'll try again next season. 

 

 

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

 

If you start with 2 in the SG(chamber empty or SxS open). It will level the field out.

Wish SASS would give the SG guidelines from W3G a try. 

OLG 

Why? 

CAS is CAS

W3G is W3G

If I wanted to do that I'd go,and try W3G!

[Baltimore Ed]

We allow stoking the pump sg on the line at ECSASS. We often start scenarios with rifle or sg safely pointed down range so I will hold my sg on it’s side at my waist, drop one in the chamber, close it and stoke the mag before shouldering the gun. But then we allow the Marlin sg, 1911s and double actions at our monthly shoots. We have evolved beyond 10-10-4. IMO. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

 

If you don't think its fair, buy a 97  or live with it!!!!!!!!

Or shoot somewhere else, which is what I would do.

[Captain Clark]

 

We allow stoking the pump sg on the line at ECSASS. We often start scenarios with rifle or sg safely pointed down range so I will hold my sg on it’s side at my waist, drop one in the chamber, close it and stoke the mag before shouldering the gun. But then we allow the Marlin sg, 1911s and double actions at our monthly shoots. We have evolved beyond 10-10-4. IMO. 

Evolved? 
Perhaps your club is shooting Zoot Suit ??

Don’t take that personal, but your description of matches is far removed from Cowboy shooting IMO.
CAS does have some rules... they’re actually written down so there is a level of consistency wherever you or I choose to compete. 
Are the non CAS guns scored separate from SASS categories?
This past weekend we had a club member bring his BAR to the match! A BAR is a really cool Gun and We all drooled and played with it, but he didn’t  shoot it in the match. Why? .... cause it isn’t part of the game!

[Baltimore Ed]

We have adopted WASA as well as SASS rules which accommodates everyone.  WASA is about the same except for the handgun specifications. With only about 12 to 16 shooters we just list our scores without any categories. We truly shoot for the fun of it but there are a couple of other duelists who I personally shoot against. There are separate categories in WASA though just not anywhere near as many as in sass. Yes, I would say evolved, last Saturday we shot a BAM match ALONG with our cas match. One stage had 10 sg targets to engage. I have developed monthly matches based on Inglorious Bastards, The wizard of Oz among others and matches where even a second rifle was used. You can only shoot 20 plus rounds so many ways so why not add variety by shooting other pistols. Double action and self loaders were in existence before 1900 just not prevalent in the US west. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

 

We allow stoking the pump sg on the line at ECSASS. We often start scenarios with rifle or sg safely pointed down range so I will hold my sg on it’s side at my waist, drop one in the chamber, close it and stoke the mag before shouldering the gun. But then we allow the Marlin sg, 1911s and double actions at our monthly shoots. We have evolved beyond 10-10-4. IMO. 

LOL, sounds like you have evolved into something different from SASS.  Might be fun, but it's not cowboy.

[Yul Lose]

 

We have adopted WASA as well as SASS rules which accommodates everyone.  WASA is about the same except for the handgun specifications. With only about 12 to 16 shooters we just list our scores without any categories. We truly shoot for the fun of it but there are a couple of other duelists who I personally shoot against. There are separate categories in WASA though just not anywhere near as many as in sass. Yes, I would say evolved, last Saturday we shot a BAM match ALONG with our cas match. One stage had 10 sg targets to engage. I have developed monthly matches based on Inglorious Bastards, The wizard of Oz among others and matches where even a second rifle was used. You can only shoot 20 plus rounds so many ways so why not add variety by shooting other pistols. Double action and self loaders were in existence before 1900 just not prevalent in the US west. 

Sounds like fun.

[Baltimore Ed]

 

Sounds like fun.

It is. 

[Eyesa Horg]

 

 

Of course there are the few exceptions, but '97 shooters don't load-one-stuff-one because it's slower than single loading.

Ellie will when there is a pop-up clay bird as she can't load fast enough from the belt to beat the bird to the ground. Maybe in time with some more practice though.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

As some clubs 'evolve' into various areas of shooting, one of these days someone will show up

with just a pair of single action revolvers and everyone will say..... "Wow, those are neat.   We need

to have some competition with just SA revolvers".

 

Stranger things have happened!

 

Happy and Blessed Thanksgiving to everyone.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

 

As some clubs 'evolve' into various areas of shooting, one of these days someone will show up

with just a pair of single action revolvers and everyone will say..... "Wow, those are neat.   We need

to have some competition with just SA revolvers".

 

Stranger things have happened!

 

Happy and Blessed Thanksgiving to everyone.

 

..........Widder

In '99 when I decided to get into CAS, there was no internet presence to find out about it, mostly word of mouth.  I got my two single actions and went and talked to the guy at the gunshow who was promoting a local club.  When I asked if there were categories for pistols only, he said no, I needed a rifle and shotgun as well.  I was bummed at first.   I had just gotten into shooting a year or so before and had no interest in long guns.  I'm sure glad now, though. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

 

Why? 

CAS is CAS

W3G is W3G

If I wanted to do that I'd go,and try W3G!

It would be optional and shooters choice.

OLG 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I prefer clubs that follow SASS rules for SASS matches. 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

We allow stoking the pump sg on the line at ECSASS. We often start scenarios with rifle or sg safely pointed down range so I will hold my sg on it’s side at my waist, drop one in the chamber, close it and stoke the mag before shouldering the gun. But then we allow the Marlin sg, 1911s and double actions at our monthly shoots. We have evolved beyond 10-10-4. IMO. 

They were banned for good reason. I saw the safety aspect when one fails. It was bloody and the shooter could have been seriously maimed when the bolt flew backwards into his nose.

[Hendo]

Heck, at this point when I'm shooting my 97 it's all I can do to keep from pulling shells from my belt and hucking them over the top of my gun.

[Yul Lose]

 

Heck, at this point when I'm shooting my 97 it's all I can do to keep from pulling shells from my belt and hucking them over the top of my gun.

It does take a bit of practice. Try rolling your 97 over a little when you’re grabbing your shells so that the loading port is a little more horizontal and  then load one an shoot, roll it a bit load one and shoot, I found that I fumbled shells a lot less once I had done it a few times.