Turkey Flats Jack Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 So I picked up a Navy Arms '73 carbine in 44-40 off of gunbroker(1st and probably last time I do that). Well it seems to work just fine until you load it. 1st issue the spring and follower would get stuck in the mag tube. It seemed extremely weak when I loaded it. I had a spare one laying around so easy enough. 2nd issue when you go to chamber a round the 2nd round slides into the carrier far enough that it will not let it lift. I've tried OAL 1.56 thru 1.60 Doesnt matter if you only load 2 shells or 10 it does it every time. I also swapped back to the original spring just to be sure the replacement one wasnt the cause. same thing. Any idea of what the possible causes are? Thanks, T.F. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Broken or bent ladle on the loading gate is the cause of double feeding. How badly was the mag tube spring corroded? Was the inside of the mag tube corroded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Flats Jack Posted November 9, 2019 Author Share Posted November 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: Broken or bent ladle on the loading gate is the cause of double feeding. How badly was the mag tube spring corroded? Was the inside of the mag tube corroded. Yep you nailed it also. had a couple fellows on fb suggest the same thing. checked it and bent the tab back to 90* and it no longer jams. However there are definitely issues with the mag tube. The new spring and follower hung up again and a couple times it failed to even feed one into the carrier. Got more work to do so guess I wont be testing it out at the match in the morning. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Google how to repair and strengthen the tab with JB weld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Flats Jack Posted November 9, 2019 Author Share Posted November 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: Google how to repair and strengthen the tab with JB weld. I was thinking solder to reinforce it but JB is a lot less involved thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Quote However there are definitely issues with the mag tube. The new spring and follower hung up again and a couple times it failed to even feed one into the carrier. Mag tube can be cleaned with an old 20 gauge shotgun brush on rod, scrub tube with a rust remover oil. I like Kroil. Liquid Wrench or WD-40 will work if you have nothing better. Then run patches through the mag tube until no rust shows on them. Then apply a dry-to-touch rust preventing lube. Eezoxx or Boeshield T-9 are great for this. Put lube on clean patch, run it back and forth, add a second dose of lube, repeat. Clean spring and follower and plug. Lube plug with anti-seize grease (sparkplug anti-seize works). Choke tube lube works. Inspect tube for any dents. Check that the follower falls freely through tube. Check that tube shows no active rust spots Then reassemble. Check it at least every 6 months. More often if shooting Black or substitute powders. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Howdy As you probably know, the length of the round on the carrier is the determining factor in how much of the next cartridge in the magazine will protrude onto the carrier. I have found that what works best with a toggle link carrier is to allow not much more than the rim of the next round in the magazine to extend onto the carrier. Around .060 or so with a 44-40. Here is a view down from the top of the carrier in my Uberti 1860 Henry. It does not matter whether or not it is a Henry, a '66, or a '73, the carriers all work pretty much the same. Notice just the rim of the next round is protruding into the space where the carrier rides. There is a bit of a ramp machined onto the floor of the trough where a cartridge sits. The purpose of this ramp is to shove the next round back into the magazine, so the carrier can pass by as it rises up. If the round protruding out of the magazine protrudes too far, the flat of the carrier trough (my term) will jam against the cartridge as the carrier tries to rise. The arrow in this photo is pointing to the ramp on my Henry carrier. Sorry for the flashlight, that was the only way I could get enough light down inside to show the ramp. Sorry too that the photo is a bit out of focus, that is the best I could do. Here is a photo of the ramp on the carrier of an original Winchester Model 1873. Notice that it is cut a little bit differently than the ramp on the Uberti. This ramp appears to have been cut with a cone shaped cutter coming in from the front of the carrier. I used to use a 44-40 Uberti 1873 as my main match rifle. It had been made sometime in the 1980s. The ramp on it absolutely would not allow 'standard' length 44-40s to feed well. I had to load my rounds extra long in order for them to prevent too much of the next round from protruding into the space where the carrier rides. Looking at my loading notebook I was loading them 1.610 - 1.615 long for them to feed properly. I'm not sure why I did not lengthen the ramp on the carrier with a little bit of file work, there must have been a reason. Perhaps your '73 is from the same time period and also wants extra long rounds. If so, perhaps a little bit of surgery to the carrier will help. I looked into replacing the carrier with another one. I was visiting my favorite gunsmith one day and he had some extra carriers. None would fit into the mortise where the carrier rides. I don't remember if they were too long or too short, but none of them would fit, so I abandoned that idea. I know you did not ask, but I currently load my 44-40s nominally 1.585 long and they feed fine. I just grabbed one and it is actually 1.575 long. Hope this is of some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 You should also check the back wall of the Carrier Block Mortice. The bottom of the back wall, on the Carrier Side, should have a nice tasty bevel to align the cartridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Flats Jack Posted November 10, 2019 Author Share Posted November 10, 2019 Straightening the tab on the load gate fixed the double feeding issue. Cleaned out the mag tube and still had issues with the spring and follower hanging up. took the plug cap off to get a better look. The channel that the screw goes through to hold the barrel band on is cut all the way through the mag tube and has serious burrs on the inside. I'm guessing the spring is hanging up on the burrs. Well deburred that. Now I have jb weld curing on the back of the loading gate tab to try and prevent it from bending back again. I also filled in the slot on the mag tube. Once it's all cured i'll file out the notch just enough for the screw and hopefully not all the way through. I'll let y'all know if it works out. Again thanks for all the advice and help! T.F. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 On 11/8/2019 at 7:43 PM, Turkey Flats Jack said: 2nd round slides into the carrier far enough that it will not let it lift. I've tried OAL 1.56 thru 1.60 Well, that's impossible unless you have a carrier that is longer than 1.600" by about 0.100" at least, which no 73 clone has ever been made with! Rounds are too short if the 2nd round is what is stopping the carrier from rising, and you probably are not measuring carefully. A 1.560" cartridge should feed fine. A cartridge at 1.580" will be almost the maximum length a 73 should feed in 100% of the 73s. Go up to Driftwood's post and re-read and look carefully at the fine photos. Now, some early 73s (chambered in .38 spl) were made with a SHORTER carrier block, and those require a shorter cartridge length. Put a vernier caliper in the carrier shaft and measure it's length. All the 44-40's frames were made full length, I am pretty sure, and have a carrier and carrier shaft of right at 1.600". Most likely you have a badly beveled cartridge loading mortise in the frame. Hint - if you can make the gun feed well by sticking your finger in the loading gate and shoving the base of the cartridge there over to the left (straight in the carrier), then working lever, it is almost always the cartridge loading mortise not beveled. Here's how to fix and what a good one looks like. http://www.pioneergunworks.com/technical-info/ Then scroll down to and click on "66 and 73 frame modification" tech note. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Replace the Ladle (loading gate). Bending it back will weaken it. Not trustworthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Flats Jack Posted November 11, 2019 Author Share Posted November 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Replace the Ladle (loading gate). Bending it back will weaken it. Not trustworthy. I most likely will but want to get it functioning before ordering parts so I can make 1 order and only pay shipping once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go West Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Early Navy Arms 73s had a different sized lifter than those made today. I had one. Someone had destroyed the ramp on the lifter and the newer parts did not fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Flats Jack Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 I'd like to thank everyone for their help on this. I got it up and running 100% based on the knowledge of you fine folks. I had one other hiccup afterwards and that will be remedied once I order the parts. The lifter spring is worn and needs replaced. So i'll be ordering a loading gate, rear sight retaining screw, and the lifter spring. So my last question (especially after Go West's comment) does anyone know if the standard Uberti parts will work on the Navy Arms? If it makes a difference the date code stamp is AD putting it made in 1978. Thanks T.F. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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