Stoeger Coach Recoil Pad and Dead Mule

[bgavin]

I've been working with David from Kick-EEZ about fitting a Magnum recoil pad to my SxS.

The mounting of recoil pads appears to be haphazard at best. 
Screw holes are in non-standard locations, drilled out of plumb in the stock, etc.

I will drill out my existing stock screw holes to accept a glued-in hardwood dowel.
Next step is drilling plumb pilot holes to match the Kick-EEZ pad.

There is no ready-made Kick-EEZ that fits the Stoeger.
The Magnum pad is a grind-to-fit type which is done on a slow belt sander or a drill press with a sanding drum.
Finish work is done with Lemon Pledge for a lubricant and a hand sanding block.
Kick-EEZ has a nice YouTube on how this is done.

I figure a cheap and easy dead mule is loading the stock bolt chamber with lead shot.
This is a round 6.75" x 15/16" chamber that holds 1.9 lbs of lead shot.
Those wanting a lesser load can put the shot up front, and stuff the pad side with rags.

The Stoeger Supreme weighs 6.5 lbs.
Winchester AA Featherlites #8, 980 fps produces 9.9 lbs of recoil at this weight.
Adding 1.9 pounds of dead mule reduces this recoil to 7.7 pounds... a substantial reduction.
Installing the Kick-EEZ magnum pad will further reduce the felt recoil.

At this point, my unknown is, "how will the gun feel with the extra weight."
8.4 pounds is very similar to a Ruger #1, Remington 700 Varmint SF or Weatherby Mark-V varmint, and less than my Savage 243 varmint rifle.
If it doesn't work out, I can pull the pad and drain out the lead shot.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Keep in mind (no matter how small) you only have to manage ALL that weight for about 10 seconds combined (taking you time).  In the "heat" of the moment, I seriously doubt those calculations will be at all noticeable.  Much.  If at all.  Any  

 

I would suggest though, you make a nice snug (tight) leather plug for the hole to prevent the shot from disappearing into the carpet the instant you loosen any future recoil pads 

[bgavin]

My wife's needs are different from the competitive shooters.
She is very recoil-averse after a negative experience with her dad's 10-gauge as a child.
A lady never forgets her "first time" and that one was a very long time ago.

It is incumbent upon me to make her first experiences with the SxS as pleasant as possible while she learns.
This is also an experiment in mass/recoil engineering, just to see if I can make it work.

I was also thinking about a canvas pouch, etc, to contain the shot.
I have some unused BBB shot to use for the experiment.
 

[G W Wade]

You will find the shotgun will feel real strange..  With all that weight in the butt, it will sit tight to your shoulder and the muzzle will feel and move really fast.   GW

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Go with the comp. They don't add much weight but tend to work better than loose shot because the forward movement of the mercury offsets the recoil without adding a bunch of weight.

 

You will want to change the angle when you cut and mount the new pad. Most shotguns are setup for arial targets. but we shoot toward the ground. What happens is the sharp angel tends to dig in and the ladies tend to drop the back end and then tend to shoot high over the targets. 

 

 My rule as to how long the stocks need to be for the ladies is with the gun shouldered, the thumb of the trigger finger hand should be about 2” but not more than 3” from her nose. This allows more bend in the elbow. Anytime the elbow is extended beyond 90 degree she will have a tuff time holding the gun up.

[Doc X]

Take her gun to a good sporting clays gun smith and have him lengthen the forcing cones. Doing this will not lessen actual recoil but the felt recoil will be cut around 15%. Instead of a whack it turns it into a shove, good for the action too. Add a lace on kick killer and call it a day.

[Rattlesnake Slim]

23 minutes ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

 

You will want to change the angle when you cut and mount the new pad. Most shotguns are setup for arial targets. but we shoot toward the ground. What happens is the sharp angel tends to dig in and the ladies tend to drop the back end and then tend to shoot high over the targets. 

 

 

 

Stock pitch is an often underestimated factor in felt recoil. There's a lot of interesting info to read online. Easier than cutting the angle is to try these https://kickeezproducts.com/recoil-pads/pitch-spacers/  . They come in different thicknesses and can be reversed to pitch the stock up or down. She can try both and see what feels better. 

 

Good stock fit is always better than just adding weight to a stock that is set up improperly.

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

I've handled a shotgun set up as you describe.  It would chase me off of shooting double barrels if I thought they were all like that.  Very weird feeling and handling

 

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

3 hours ago, bgavin said:

My wife's needs are different from the competitive shooters.
She is very recoil-averse after a negative experience with her dad's 10-gauge as a child.
A lady never forgets her "first time" and that one was a very long time ago.

It is incumbent upon me to make her first experiences with the SxS as pleasant as possible while she learns.
This is also an experiment in mass/recoil engineering, just to see if I can make it work.

I was also thinking about a canvas pouch, etc, to contain the shot.
I have some unused BBB shot to use for the experiment.
 

 

to tackle this from the opposite direction:  get some of those mini shotgun shells.  They have almost no recoil.  I've been working with some reloaded ones and am about ready to try them in a 'real' match

 

 

 

seems most Academy stores carry them

 

 

[bgavin]

1 hour ago, J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE said:

I've handled a shotgun set up as you describe.  It would chase me off of shooting double barrels if I thought they were all like that.  Very weird feeling and handling

 

That is a good possibility.
That is why reverting back to "stock" is as simple as removing the recoil pad and draining out the shot.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Eyesa Horg]

I could be wrong!!! I think those mini shotshells are considered "illegal" ammo.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

55 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I could be wrong!!! I think those mini shotshells are considered "illegal" ammo.

 

Yep, you are wrong.  No rule prevents a light load.   A magnum velocity load, or a coned-crimp, or a steel shot load, those are several that are illegal. 

 

However, they cause lots of folks who have tried them lots of fumbles trying to get them out of a belt and into a gun.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Sedalia Dave]

7 hours ago, bgavin said:

My wife's needs are different from the competitive shooters.
She is very recoil-averse after a negative experience with her dad's 10-gauge as a child.
A lady never forgets her "first time" and that one was a very long time ago.

It is incumbent upon me to make her first experiences with the SxS as pleasant as possible while she learns.
This is also an experiment in mass/recoil engineering, just to see if I can make it work.

I was also thinking about a canvas pouch, etc, to contain the shot.
I have some unused BBB shot to use for the experiment.
 

 

Most important thing you can do is have the stock cut to fit your wife. A properly fitted stock reduces felt recoil more than just about anything else. 

Second find one of the top women shooters in your area that can help her with how to hold the shotgun properly. Her anatomy is different and if not shouldered correctly the recoil will be painful no matter what.

 

I suggest you start her out with light BP loads. The felt recoil is less and it is more of a shove. You can load them as light as you want with no worries about damaging a shotgun.

 

Don't waste your time buying Winchester AA LNLR. Their quality control sucks and the last couple boxes I have shot had way more recoil than they should have. They felt more like light target loads than LNLR

 

The lowest recoil load I have found is using a Remington STS hull and a ClayBuster CB0175-12 wad. less felt recoil than the AA LNLR and if you load them yourself their will not be any quality control issues.

 

Here is a link to the load data https://www.claybusterwads.com/index.php/winchester-style/53-cb0175-12-load-data.

 

You can drop the 700X load down as low as 13.5 grains and still have a load that will consistently knock down shot gun targets.

[bgavin]

My wife and I have the same reach, so a fit for her is a fit for me.

I have three cases of AA Featherlites to work through.
After that, I'm all set up with a Sizemaster to load Remington hulls, CB0175-12 wads, Clays and #8 shot.
Federal 209A are finally back in stock (Midsouth) and I have 3 bricks on the way with 8 lbs of Clays.

Yes, 700-X can yield a lower recoil than Clays in 3/4 oz.
I've been through all the loads and calculated them all.

Clays is the choice because I can use it for my 38SP loads, and regular Trap loads.
I was looking into Alliant Extra-Lite, but their lightest load is a higher recoil.
Quite a few in my posses shoot Clays.
I have 4 pounds of Trail Boss for the revolvers, so that will last awhile.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I always kinda chuckle to myself when people get coach guns because they are light and handle well but then complain about recoil. I like barrels of at least 26", for the extra weight and sight picture, such as it is. But that is just me.

[Sedalia Dave]

Still have the stock cut for her. You want a little negative (down) Pitch 

1. 

I still feel it is worth it to load shells for her now and save the AAs for you to use. One box of shells that are too hot may end her CAS shooting before it gets started.

 

BTW my wife no longer shoots the AAs as she got a nasty bruise from the last box she shot.  So now I have 9 cases of factory shells that I will have to use up in between all the Frontier Cartridge Duelist and Frontiersman shooting I do. Figure I have about 10 years worth of factory smokeless shells before I need to buy any. 

 

Ask any man whose wife shoots CAS with him and he will tell you that it is worth every dollar spent to ensure she enjoys herself.

[bgavin]

12 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Ask any man whose wife shoots CAS with him and he will tell you that it is worth every dollar spent to ensure she enjoys herself.

You FULLY understand the situation. 
Handing her my 870 with a load of slugs is just as stupid as teaching her to snow ski by dropping her off at the top of a Black Diamond run.
I know if she is really put off by it, she will walk away.  Don't want that, so I jump through hoops to make "her first time" a real pleasure.

I bought a set of Single-Six in Bisley 22LR expressly for the purpose of her SASS training.
They have the same heft and feel as her Vaqueros, but shoot mouse fart loads, no recoil, and 22LR is cheap to shoot.

She is already an excellent shot with a rifle.
When we were first married, she spent time with her Weihrauch pellet gun shooting the eyes out of photos of her ex-husband.
I got her a Henry Frontier in 22LR as another trainer before stepping up the the 1894.
We practice all the SASS procedures to get them deeply ingrained, and have fun together.

I'll put together a run of 3/4 oz loads and compare them with the AA in the Stoeger, and have her shoot the lighter ones.
Good thought on that... thanks!

[bgavin]

29 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I always kinda chuckle to myself when people get coach guns because they are light and handle well but then complain about recoil. I like barrels of at least 26", for the extra weight and sight picture, such as it is. But that is just me.

I bought the coach gun because I REALLY don't want a 97.
The handling characteristic was not part of the decision.

This is not a complaint about recoil.
It is about dialing in an optimum and enjoyable first-timer situation, same as you would do for a grandson.

[watab kid]

if i can ever get my wife to shoot SASS i will do all of this and anything more that it takes to keep her interested , it would be so much fun to enjoy this together , 

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

2 hours ago, bgavin said:

My wife and I have the same reach, so a fit for her is a fit for me.

I have three cases of AA Featherlites to work through.
After that, I'm all set up with a Sizemaster to load Remington hulls, CB0175-12 wads, Clays and #8 shot.
Federal 209A are finally back in stock (Midsouth) and I have 3 bricks on the way with 8 lbs of Clays.

Yes, 700-X can yield a lower recoil than Clays in 3/4 oz.
I've been through all the loads and calculated them all.

Clays is the choice because I can use it for my 38SP loads, and regular Trap loads.
I was looking into Alliant Extra-Lite, but their lightest load is a higher recoil.
Quite a few in my posses shoot Clays.
I have 4 pounds of Trail Boss for the revolvers, so that will last awhile.

 

 

Not necessarily. Generally women don't have the upper body strength that men do. Again, when shouldered if the thumb of her trigger finger hand is more than 3" from her nose as in the elbow is more than 90 degree extended she will probably struggle to hold the gun up.  

This young lady was 11 years old when these pictures were taken. This first pic is her with one of the youth size Henry 22’s and as you can see she is still struggling to hold it up.

 

 

Here she is with a 12ga Baikal SXS that is cut with a 5 degree negative pitch to about 10”LOP with a mercury recoil reducer and good sorbothane pad. Her stance isn’t that great but she is definitely in more control of the gun.

 

 

 

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

9 hours ago, Doc X said:

Take her gun to a good sporting clays gun smith and have him lengthen the forcing cones. Doing this will not lessen actual recoil but the felt recoil will be cut around 15%. Instead of a whack it turns it into a shove, good for the action too. Add a lace on kick killer and call it a day.

 

 

Doc,

IIRC the Stoegers already have long cones.

[Doc X]

14 hours ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

 

 

Doc,

IIRC the Stoegers already have long cones.

 

Nate,

Not to argue but, every Stoeger I've examined that was stock had roughly a 3/4" forcing cone with is pretty much industry standard for a budget priced gun not purpose built for trap. The clays guys take them way deeper, close to 3" or slightly over. The difference in felt recoil really surprised me.

[bgavin]

Nate, that is an interesting measurement.
In my natural stance, my thumb-to-nose distance is 6 inches.

The Stoeger stock is cut at 90-degrees.
Shooting at a flat-level SASS target has the bottom of the butt pad on the should, the top not touching at all.

I will have to make a deep-dive into understand how to properly fit our shotgun.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

20 hours ago, bgavin said:

I will have to make a deep-dive into understand how to properly fit our shotgun.

 

Right here in this thread resides a lot of the world's expertise in fitting a shotgun for SASS use.   Between Sedalia Dave and NKJ's posts above, you have already been given the major tricks. 

 

Quote

(The gun's factory stock, when) shooting at a flat-level SASS target, puts the bottom of the butt pad on the shoulder, the top not touching at all.

 

1.  3-5 degrees of Negative pitch, or more if a lady is well endowed and has lots of "tissue" to work around.

Negative pitch fixes this condition so that recoil is spread over the entire surface of the pad and into the shoulder, instead of stabbing the toe of the pad into the tender part of the upper chest and lower shoulder.  Also, the negative pitch makes it easy to get the gun down onto our ground level targets instead of shooting over them.

 

2.  Butt Stock Length shortened so the nose and the gripping thumb are 2-3 inches apart.   This shorter than standard stock improves the ease of mounting (no push-out, raise, pull-in motion, just a raise directly into shoulder motion).   And this stock length allows even a person with minimal upper body strength to reach far enough forward with the non-grip hand to manage the weight of most shotguns.

 

Going to a shorter stock also means that there is no way a pre-fit pad fits the stock.  A grind-to-fit pad is 100% required to get a nice looking fit.   And grinding your own pad the first time means, "you better buy two", because the first one will probably get gouged up.

 

Good luck with fitting your own.    GJ

[Chuck Steak]

I shoot a bone-stock Stoeger Coach gun and recoil as a comfort issue isn't a big deal - I am only looking for recoil reduction as a way of speeding up recovery for that second shot.  

Are the store bought recoil reducers noticeably more effective than just pouring lead shot into the bolt-hole of the stock? 

Unless recoil reduction is an absolute imperative, it doesn't seem like the "juice" in a store bought recoil reducer is worth the "squeeze" - that lead shot trick sounds pretty worthwhile. 

A lace-up stock cover with a layer of sorbothane inside also seems like a relatively inexpensive reduction method.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, bgavin said:

Nate, that is an interesting measurement.
In my natural stance, my thumb-to-nose distance is 6 inches.

The Stoeger stock is cut at 90-degrees.
Shooting at a flat-level SASS target has the bottom of the butt pad on the should, the top not touching at all.

I will have to make a deep-dive into understand how to properly fit our shotgun.

 

As GJ poined out the way your stock is currently cut is not correct for women that shoot CAS.  You stock is cut for shooting at targets at elevations that require you to look up. Fine for ducks and doves but completely unsatisfactory for CAS. In CAS 99% of all shotgun targets require you to aim the shotgun down. The way your stock is currently cut all of the recoil is concentrated in the toe area. When your wife shoots this shotgun that recoil will be near a rather sensitive area and not on the muscles of her shoulder. The negative pitch gets the main contact area closer to the heel of the butt stock.

 

The reason for having another woman coach your wife is so that she can show here how to place the shotgun so that it is in contact with the muscle of her shoulder and not more sensitive parts of her anatomy. This is critical if she is going to enjoy CAS.

 

In your deep dive keep in mind that 99.9% of what your will find was written by a man with zero reguard for the diferences between mens and womens anatomies.

[bgavin]

1 hour ago, Chuck Steak said:

Are the store bought recoil reducers noticeably more effective than just pouring lead shot into the bolt-hole of the stock? 
 

 

 

 

This graphic is from a thread on ShotgunWorld forum.
The author was not at all impressed with Kick-EEZ, despite it's wide acceptance.

The take-away:  thicker pads absorb more than thinner pads.
Kick-EEZ and Limbsaver both make a grind-to-fit magnum pad.
The pads do not so much "absorb" recoil, as they do widen the recoil pulse where it is "perceived" as less.
The Kick-EEZ is a high-hysteresis device that absorbs recoil by converting it into heat.

Randy Wakeman looked at the recoil device, and concluded the spring and mercury gadgets are not worth the bother.
He favors both Limbsaver and Kick-EEZ pads.

Lead shot in the stock is a cheap, quick, easy and reversible method to test if more mass is what you need.
This weight will indeed move the center of balance farther to the rear.

Using the crook-of-the-arm-to-trigger method, my bone-stock Stoeger LOP is at least an inch too long.
My trigger finger falls naturally on the rear trigger, and I have to reach for the forward trigger.

Using Nate's thumb-to-nose guideline, my LOP is 3 inches too long.
The Stoeger stock is cut on a 90-degree angle from the barrel line.
The pad is not uniformly on the pocket unless I am aiming 45 degrees up in the air.

My wife is cross-dominant... right-handed shooter, left-eye dominant.
I have a feeling she will skip the shotgun stage all together and just take the "P".
She is indeed gifted with large tracts of land...
We compete more against the calendar, than the TO clock...

I am very much interested in going deep-dive into the proper fit.



 

[Sedalia Dave]

10 minutes ago, bgavin said:

Using Nate's thumb-to-nose guideline, my LOP is 3 inches too long.
The Stoeger stock is cut on a 90-degree angle from the barrel line.

 

One VERY important thing to point out is that your LOP is not 3 inches too long. Removing 1/2 inch from your stock will change the distance between your nose and thumb a lot more than a half of an inch. 

 

Go slow and remove a little at a time checking the fit as you go.

 

The relationship between the lenght of your stock and the distance between your thumb and nose is more complex that it appears.

 

I would bet that you will find that the nose to thumb distance is different for you and your wife for a given length of stock. Fit the shotgun to her and if that fit is not correct for you live with it till you get another shotgun.

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

bgavin when you have some time read this. You will get a lot out of it..

 

When U.S. air force discovered the flaw of averages

 

Quote

 

Daniels was not interested in typing, however. Instead, his undergraduate thesis consisted of a rather plodding comparison of the shape of 250 male Harvard students’ hands. The students Daniels examined were from very similar ethnic and socio-cultural backgrounds (namely, white and wealthy), but, unexpectedly, their hands were not similar at all. Even more surprising, when Daniels averaged all his data, the average hand did not resemble any individual’s measurements. There was no such thing as an average hand size. “When I left Harvard, it was clear to me that if you wanted to design something for an individual human being, the average was completely useless,” Daniels told me.

 

So when the air force put him to work measuring pilots, Daniels harboured a private conviction about averages that rejected almost a century of military design philosophy. As he sat in the Aero Medical Laboratory measuring hands, legs, waists and foreheads, he kept asking himself the same question in his head: How many pilots really were average?

 

 

[bgavin]

15 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

I would bet that you will find that the nose to thumb distance is different for you and your wife for a given length of stock. Fit the shotgun to her and if that fit is not correct for you live with it till you get another shotgun.

 

 

I have a line on an old Stevens 311C if I want to pull on that line.
My bride is cross-dominant which creates further problems.
Perhaps she can train on the shotgun and 1894 as a left-handed shooter.
I won't be at all surprised if she balks 100% and just takes the "Ps" instead of shooting shotgun.

I figure I can measure the actual angle of her chest pocket and mine, relative to the horizontal, or maybe even a slight down angle.
I've learned hard lessons about hacking up cars, motorcycles, induction systems, guitars, houses, etc to "customize" them, only to find out the resale is a Big Zero.
I have to have a very clear understanding of all facets before I get into permanent tweaking.

Yes, her thumb-to-hose is around 3+ inches.  Mine is 6", and we have the same reach, finger tip to armpit.

[Sedalia Dave]

If the barrels haven't been cut the Stevens 311 would be a great starter gun for her to learn on. It is not the fastest to load as the locking lug sitting between the barrels can get in the way of smooth loading.

However the extra weight will adsorb recoil while maintaining the balance of the firearm.

 

I know a few shooter that are cross dominate. With practice it can be mitigated.One thing that helps is to use a computer mouse with your non-dominate hand. Playing minesweeper and solitaire will speed the process. 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Don't put too much on the fact your wife is left eye dominant.  85% of women are left eye dominant.  She will be able to shoot right handed without much problem.  A woman mentor would be a huge help in training her.

 

Cross dominance is when, typically with a woman, both eyes share dominance equally.  This is generally not a problem if the shooter simply closes one eye.  A spot can be added to the support side of her shooting glasses for consistency.  Very few women are cross dominant.

 

If she is recoil sensitive, she could shoot the shotgun outlaw style from the hip.  This is a common practice by folks with shoulder issues.  

 

Rather than take misses, many local clubs will allow a shooter with infirmaties to use a rifle to shoot shotgun targets by single loading for each target.  This practice must be approved by the club first though.

 

There are a lot of options for her so be patient and let her find what works for her irregardless if it works for you.  Of she's happy, you'll be happy.

[bgavin]

Thanks for all the tips.
Never thought about shooting from the hip.
I asked her about using the rifle in lieu... "pain in the..." for loading singles.

Wrongway is completely Left eye dominant, right handed, and a right handed shooter.
One of our posses here is the Sacramento Shady Ladies.
We are at the tail end of the season here, so perhaps one of those ladies will do some shotgun mentoring with a SxS.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

1 hour ago, bgavin said:

Thanks for all the tips.
Never thought about shooting from the hip.
I asked her about using the rifle in lieu... "pain in the..." for loading singles.

Wrongway is completely Left eye dominant, right handed, and a right handed shooter.
One of our posses here is the Sacramento Shady Ladies.
We are at the tail end of the season here, so perhaps one of those ladies will do some shotgun mentoring with a SxS.

There ya go, there are some very good women shooters there.  

[Eyesa Horg]

On 11/6/2019 at 2:50 PM, Doc X said:

 

Nate,

Not to argue but, every Stoeger I've examined that was stock had roughly a 3/4" forcing cone with is pretty much industry standard for a budget priced gun not purpose built for trap. The clays guys take them way deeper, close to 3" or slightly over. The difference in felt recoil really surprised me.

Had mine recut to 3" due to a shoulder injury and the difference is quite noticeable.