Time for another police question

[Alpo]

Someone breaks into my house. I shoot him.

 

The house is now a crime scene, right? Cops can search all over the place in the house, because it's a crime scene?

 

Do they need a search warrant?

 

The first story I read about the woman in Hillsborough County who shot the home invader, the Hillsborough sheriff's department PIO mentioned nothing about being pregnant, and nothing about an 11 year old kid. Nothing about them being married. Just the homeowner was beaten, and the female homeowner got a legally owned a gun and shot one of the Invaders.

 

At the end of his little blab, he said they were getting a search warrant so they can finish checking the house.

 

That seemed strange to me, but I ain't a cop.

[Ozark Huckleberry]

Someone breaks into a house and the homeowner defends it, and the police want to search the victim’s house?

 

That sounds odd. 
 

ETA: Unless there’s something credible about the reason that house was chosen for the break-in that gives them reason to believe there’s something else at play here. 

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

No.  They can't search the house.  They would secure the area and get a warrant.

[Tascosa, SASS# 24838]

Unless there was some connection between the home owner (shooter) and the bad guy (dead) there is no reason to search the rest of the home. To get a warrant they (the police) need "reasonable suspicion" and have to identify in the warrant what they are looking for. Search warrants are not fishing expeditions.

[Henry T Harrison]

The officers can clear the whole house for their own safety. If they see any contraband they should secure the house and obtain a warrant 

[Utah Bob #35998]

No. Without probable cause to search anywhere else they only would examine the immediate scene. Anything else would take a warrant. Now, if you shot him in the bedroom and then he stumbled, crawled, hopped, and ran bleeding into every other room in the house before flopping dead in the bathtub next to a sink full of meth..........

[Henry T Harrison]

16 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

No. Without probable cause to search anywhere else they only would examine the immediate scene. Anything else would take a warrant. Now, if you shot him in the bedroom and then he stumbled, crawled, hopped, and ran bleeding into every other room in the house before flopping dead in the bathtub next to a sink full of meth..........

Sorry Bob but if I walked into a house with a homicide victim lying on the floor I’m clearing the whole house both for my safety and to be sure there were no other victims.

In this case this is a homicide scene 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

The initial responding officers can secure the scene, make it safe by searching the house for other victims, suspects.  They may only search where a victim or suspect may be hiding.  They can't open drawers or search through a bookcase.  The police would then need to get a search warrant to search the house for evidence.  The crime is murder however, the victim has a defense, that being that it was justified.  The officers could get consent from the victim and avoid a search warrant but that's not a good idea.  Getting a search warrant is the safest and best course.  Failure to do it right will get all of your evidence suppressed.

[Captain Bill Burt]

4 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

The initial responding officers can secure the scene, make it safe by searching the house for other victims, suspects.  They may only search where a victim or suspect may be hiding.  They can't open drawers or search through a bookcase.  The police would then need to get a search warrant to search the house for evidence.  The crime is murder however, the victim has a defense, that being that it was justified.  The officers could get consent from the victim and avoid a search warrant but that's not a good idea.  Getting a search warrant is the safest and best course.  Failure to do it right will get all of your evidence suppressed.

Absent something that makes you suspect the homeowner isn't legit would you get a warrant and search as SOP?

[LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L]

5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Absent something that makes you suspect the homeowner isn't legit would you get a warrant and search as SOP?

We always obtained a warrant on cases such as these.  Much better to have one than to have evidence ruled inadmissible due to lack of a search warrant.   

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

Absent something that makes you suspect the homeowner isn't legit would you get a warrant and search as SOP?

Absolutely I would get the search warrant.  Suppose the homeowner concocted this story and next week you find out the person she shot was her lover.  You then find out additional information that she killed him to cover up the affair she was having.  She gave a good performance at the scene but you found motel receipts in the victim's wallet and surveillance at the motel shows them going into a room together.  All that good stuff is now worthless because you got lazy and didn't get a search warrant.  Fruits of a poisonous tree.

 

Consent to search given by a victim/suspect under duress or in highly stressful situations can often be suppressed by the judge.  Also the person giving consent is able to withdraw consent at any time.  Lots of rules and case law involving searches.

[Captain Bill Burt]

4 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

Absolutely I would get the search warrant.  Suppose the homeowner concocted this story and next week you find out the person she shot was her lover.  You then find out additional information that she killed him to cover up the affair she was having.  She gave a good performance at the scene but you found motel receipts in the victim's wallet and surveillance at the motel shows them going into a room together.  All that good stuff is now worthless because you got lazy and didn't get a search warrant.  Fruits of a poisonous tree.

 

Consent to search given by a victim/suspect under duress or in highly stressful situations can often be suppressed by the judge.  Also the person giving consent is able to withdraw consent at any time.  Lots of rules and case law involving searches.

That makes sense to me.

[Dubious Don #56333]

The officers can do a "protective sweep" looking for threats, not "stuff". Anything in plain sight that's illegal is fair game. For instance, if you're in the habit of leaving a kilo of heroin on the kitchen table, you're gonna kiss the donkey LOL. They can't look in drawers or in little boxes a human can't fit. Its just for officer safety. Anything they DO see that may be part of the crime they can use as probable cause to get a search warrant. Takes probably cause to get that, not mere suspicion. Under most circumstances its unlikely they'd go that far. But it happens.

 

So the cops come to my house after I smoke some evil-doer. I tell them he kicked in the front door, made threats, was holding a deadly weapon and I defended myself. The gun I used was a 12ga shotgun. Dead dork's got 12ga holes in him. My wife saw the whole thing and her story matches. There's not really going to be anything the cops would be able to use in that to GET a warrant like, what are they looking for? Um judge, we thought he might have another gun he used and hid it. What makes you think that. Um, he's Dubious....LOL, judge ain't gonna give'em a warrant on that.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

If the evil doer was killed in your living room, I promise the police will be able to get a search warrant for the premises to process it for evidence.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

We always cleared the entire house for our safety.

Couple of times contraband was spotted and seized.

Then the DA would decide whether to file charges or not. 

OLG 

 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

I suppose they could get a warrant. After all, in the Minneapolis shooting of the Australian woman who called the police to report a crime in the neighborhood, and who was shot by a responding officer for no articulated reason when she came up to the prowl car, they obtained a warrant to search her house for "drugs, writings, etc." I have never been able to figure that one-- how did they show a magistrate that there was any suspicion, much less probable cause, that she had drugs in her house?

 

But they certainly should get a warrant. Presumably they will have to show a magistrate that there is some legitimate reason to search a whole house of a victim, where the solitary burglar lies there dead in the front hallway.

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

10 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

We always cleared the entire house for our safety.

Couple of times contraband was spotted and seized.

Then the DA would decide whether to file charges or not. 

OLG 

 

 

If John Smith, record-free citizen, calls 911 and says that he shot a burglar, and the responding LEOs see the corpse,  talk to the homeowner and he tells them what happened, why do they need to clear his 3-story house and basement 'for their own safety'? Does there have to be some factual pattern besides the happening of the shooting to indicate how their safety is at risk? Like, did somebody else come in with him?

 

The question is entirely serious: do I lose my protection against search because I'm a victim, where I haven't invited a search?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 minutes ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

If John Smith, record-free citizen, calls 911 and says that he shot a burglar, and the responding LEOs see the corpse,  talk to the homeowner and he tells them what happened, why do they need to clear his 3-story house and basement 'for their own safety'? Does there have to be some factual pattern besides the happening of the shooting to indicate how their safety is at risk? Like, did somebody else come in with him?

 

The question is entirely serious: do I lose my protection against search because I'm a victim, where I haven't invited a search?

Depends on initial investigation and evaluation of the responding LEO's.

I've rolled of a couple that were 'iffy' and we cleared the house because 'things' just didn't add up.

One time-that's  when we found the meth lab and the dead guy was the 'former' partner. 

OLG

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

 

Absolutely; all depends on the circumstances.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

1 hour ago, Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 said:

 

If John Smith, record-free citizen, calls 911 and says that he shot a burglar, and the responding LEOs see the corpse,  talk to the homeowner and he tells them what happened, why do they need to clear his 3-story house and basement 'for their own safety'? Does there have to be some factual pattern besides the happening of the shooting to indicate how their safety is at risk? Like, did somebody else come in with him?

 

The question is entirely serious: do I lose my protection against search because I'm a victim, where I haven't invited a search?

The people who process the "crime scene" will probably not be sworn law enforcement officers.  They will be crime scene techs (civilians).  They are unarmed and are specialists called in to collect evidence and document the scene.  These folks do a lot more than throw fingerprint powder around.  I've never heard of a search warrant in a death investigation limiting the search to a particular room in the house.  I suppose different jurisdictions may have different rules.

 

Follow the physical evidence and don't jump to conclusions until all of the evidence has been collected.   And don't let the person's status dictate how you process the crime scene.  That way you won't look stupid/incompetent like those that handled the Jon Benet Ramsey case.

 

I'm retired and ya'll are making me have flashbacks.

[Cat Brules]

edited out

[Hashknife Cowboy]

The house is a crime scene, it must be treated as such.  Once safety has been confirmed the police cannot search without a warrant.  My question is, why are they searching the house of the victim who used force to protect themselves?  The more I think, the more questions I come up with.  As I always instructed, when in doubt, get a warrant.  So not deny due process to anyone.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Whether the shooter is the victim or the perp needs to be established.

[Sarge]

They would not need a search warrant for any place the homeowner summoned them to.  Nor would they need a search warrant if they believed there were "exigent circumstances" (an emergency).  You said a shooting right?  I think exigent circumstances would apply until the scene was secure.  At that point, whether it was necessary or not, a prudent detective would obtain a search warrant.  Probably for the entire premises.   

[Sarge]

On 11/5/2019 at 11:35 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

Absent something that makes you suspect the homeowner isn't legit would you get a warrant and search as SOP?

Yes.

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

Burglars don't always work alone.  If a homeowner shot a perp, that does not mean it was the only perp in the house.  As a lawyer, not a police officer, I will throw in that a responding officer damn well better clear the house of potential threats- that means anywhere a person could hide is fair game for a search.

 

Can they search your drawers-probably not.  Will they-possibly.

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

On 11/6/2019 at 3:23 PM, Sarge said:

They would not need a search warrant for any place the homeowner summoned them to. 

Huh?? Not in any jurisdiction I know of.

[Sarge]

6 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Huh?? Not in any jurisdiction I know of.

If you are called to a residence and invited in by the home owner, you don't need a warrant to enter.  Why would you? 

[Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619]

4 hours ago, J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE said:

Burglars don't always work alone.  If a homeowner shot a perp, that does not mean it was the only perp in the house.  As a lawyer, not a police officer, I will throw in that a responding officer damn well better clear the house of potential threats- that means anywhere a person could hide is fair game for a search.

 

Can they search your drawers-probably not.  Will they-possibly.

 

 

Every case turns on its facts. The fact that someone breaking in is shot, where the homeowner clearly states that one person only broke in, there is no reasonable inference that there might be another miscreant in the house "because burglars don't always work alone".

 

And the idea proposed by some that if a homeowner's house can be searched just because he 'summoned the police to his home' won't fly. He didn't summon the police to his home, he reported a crime and a shooting.

 

If the perp is dead in the front hall, and the door is broken down, and the homeowner says he shot the single bad guy as he broke through the door, then there will be no basis to search the 3-story home and its basement. A warrant will be needed, with a showing of a good reason.