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Crusty Knees

TG asked for our opinion

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On 11/5/2019 at 9:00 AM, Barry Sloe said:

 

That's why it should have been addressed the way I wrote it.  It does not do away with the rule. It modifies the rule such that the shooter shows the TO whether or not there is a live round under the hammer or not.  Live round is penalized,  otherwise no call.

No, I am not a TG.  I did, however, submit this change through a TG for consideration.

 

BS

This is the change that was agreed to by the ROC back in 2018.

The actually wording is in the minutes. Here it is;

1. Eliminate the automatic SDQ penalty for leaving the LT and coming to the line of engagement with the hammer back on the rifle. "In such instances, the shooter would be directed to point the rifle safely into the back berm, bring the hammer to FULL COCK if it's in the "safety notch, and pull the trigger. If no bullet was fired, the shooter would be directed to finish staging firearms and to complete the stage (No Call). If a round fired when the shooter pulled the trigger, the shooter would be assessed a SDQ and directed to proceed to the ULT." RECOMMENDATION: YES…CHANGE THE RULE AS SUGGESTED (amended re "safety notch")

 

It's not only if the shooter came from the loading table with it cocked, there have been quite a few occasions when the hammer has been down, but is brushed back and cocked from touching shooters clothing as they have staged it.?

With light hammer springs these days this is very easy achieved, now a SDQ WITHOUT testing to see if there is a live round is a harsh penalty.

 

And here are the minutes for that item in the 2019 meeting.

2. It was discussed at the last EOT to change the penalty for coming to the line with a hammer back on rifle when leaving loading table. It has been suggested that the handling of the situation is as follows: If the hammer is back on the rifle while leaving the loading table to the stage, the shooter is to point the rifle safely down range, pull the trigger. If a round is fired, squib or otherwise (live round was under the hammer) a SDQ violation would have occurred. If the chamber is confirmed to be empty (hammer goes “click” with no round fired, the shooter may continue to stage guns with no further call. NOTE: The current rule remains in effect….no change has been voted on or approved by the TGs. The ROC has agreed with this concept. There will likely be a future vote either electronically or at a Summit.

 

Edited by Jackaroo, # 29989
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Jackaroo,

Thank you for giving us the exact verbiage.  

 

BS

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And, here is what was recently sent to the TgGs

 


VOTING ITEM INFORMATION
Proposed rule change:
Eliminate the automatic Stage DQ penalty for leaving the loading table with a cocked rifle.
In such instances, the shooter will be directed to point the rifle safely into the back berm, bring the hammer to full cock if it is in the half-cock/safety position, then pull the trigger.
If no round is fired, the shooter will be directed to finish staging firearms in order to start the stage (No Call).
If a round fires when the shooter pulls the trigger, the shooter will be assessed a Stage DQ and directed to proceed to the unloading table
 
Current rules/penalties:
Movement is not allowed with a loaded round under the hammer of any firearm. Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded round under the hammer of a firearm in hand, at least one foot must remain in place on the ground. The first violation will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty. The second violation will result in a Match Disqualification penalty assessment. It is also not allowed to leave the loading table with a cocked, loaded firearm.
SHB p.12 – Participant Conduct - Safety
- Rifles may be staged with the magazine loaded, action closed, hammer fully down on the empty chamber (NOT the safety notch), with the muzzle pointing in a safe direction (adheres to the 170° rule).
SHB p.15 – Safety and Handling Conventions - Rifles
- Changing location/moving with a live round under a cocked hammer or firearm with the hammer down on a live round.
- Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked.
SHB p.23 – Stage Disqualification Penalty (SDQ)
 
Definitions:
Cocked – hammer not fully down (full, half-cock or safety notch).
SHB P.43 – Glossary of Terms
Hammer down – hammer fully down at its final resting position.
Loaded Firearm – Any firearm with unfired round(s) in the action/chamber/magazine.
SHB p.44 – Glossary of Terms
 

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How exactly does excusing inattention at the loading table improve safety?

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1.   Always treat all firearms as if they were loaded.

2.  Never allow the muzzle of any firearm to point at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3.  Never put your finger near the trigger until you are ready to fire.

 

How does moving from a Loading Table to the stage with a loaded rifle with a hammer in a half cock/full cocked position violate the three cardinal rules of handling firearms?

 

 

 

Edited by Matthew Duncan
the word "carnal" corrected to "cardinal".
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1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said:

1.   Always treat all firearms as if they were loaded.

2.  Never allow the muzzle of any firearm to point at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3.  Never put your finger near the trigger until you are ready to fire.

 

How does moving from a Loading Table to the stage with a loaded rifle with a hammer in a half cock/full cocked position violate the three carnal rules of handling firearms?

 

Shooter fires a 10 rounds from the rifle and has to take the rifle with them to a downrange position.  The lever accidentally closes and the shooter is moving with a cocked hammer and the action closed.   Shooter does not have their finger near the trigger.  Does not violate the 170, does not sweep anybody.

 

How does moving from a one position to another with an Empty rifle with a hammer in a half cock/full cocked position violate the three carnal rules of handling firearms?

 

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On 11/10/2019 at 5:44 PM, J-BAR #18287 said:

How exactly does excusing inattention at the loading table improve safety?

I don't think the point of the rule change is to improve safety.  

 

I'm going to paraphrase Matthew a bit because I don't want to talk dirty like he did, but how is moving with a cocked hammer and no round in the chamber dangerous?  Or better yet, should moving with a cocked hammer and a live round in the chamber have the same penalty has moving with a cocked hammer and no round in the chamber?

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2 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

1.   Always treat all firearms as if they were loaded.

2.  Never allow the muzzle of any firearm to point at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3.  Never put your finger near the trigger until you are ready to fire.

 

How does moving from a Loading Table to the stage with a loaded rifle with a hammer in a half cock/full cocked position violate the three carnal rules of handling firearms?

 

 

 

Enquiring minds want to know what the three carnal rules are, but keep it clean, this is a family forum.;)

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22 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't think the point of the rule change is to improve safety.  

 

I agree.  The point of the rule is to excuse those folks who aren’t paying attention while loading their rifle.   I’m not convinced that is a good direction for any change.   

 

I see Buckaroos and Buckarettes who have no problems under the current rules, why should experienced adults have problems?  I don’t see how the proposed change is an improvement.  If one does not want a SDQ, make sure the rifle is not cocked.  Simple.

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6 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

I agree.  The point of the rule is to excuse those folks who aren’t paying attention while loading their rifle.   I’m not convinced that is a good direction for any change.   

 

I see Buckaroos and Buckarettes who have no problems under the current rules, why should experienced adults have problems?  I don’t see how the proposed change is an improvement.  If one does not want a SDQ, make sure the rifle is not cocked.  Simple.

I understand.  

 

So you're of the opinion that moving with a cocked gun with a round in the chamber should carry the same penalty as moving with a cocked gun with an empty chamber?  Simple question, yes or no.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I understand.  

 

So you're of the opinion that moving with a cocked gun with a round in the chamber should carry the same penalty as moving with a cocked gun with an empty chamber?  Simple question, yes or no.

 

Yes.

 

While I can appreciate the difference between those two situations,  keeping the rule simple is more likely to ensure that neither happens.

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11 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Yes.

 

While I can appreciate the difference between those two situations,  keeping the rule simple is more likely to ensure that neither happens.

Very fair.

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