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18 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

 

That's why it should have been addressed the way I wrote it.  It does not do away with the rule. It modifies the rule such that the shooter shows the TO whether or not there is a live round under the hammer or not.  Live round is penalized,  otherwise no call.

No, I am not a TG.  I did, however, submit this change through a TG for consideration.

 

BS

 

So, why should a loaded rifle be treated differently than a unloaded shotgun?

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When I re-stage my SG and it goes closed what does the TO do?  He has me open it and show empty to him/her.  This change would follow along those lines.

 

As far as "rifle being treated differently than a unloaded shotgun" - currently the rifle is being treated differently.  From the SHB, pg 16, under "Safe Conditions During a Course of FIre - Shotguns"

"A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only:

   -  Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.

   -  Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed."

 

So, a shotgun can be moved from point A to point B with the action closed and empty chamber.  A rifle, however, with the action closed, empty chamber, and hammer cocked will get you a SDQ.

 

That is part of the reasoning for the modification to the rule.  Not to throw the rule out.  But to penalize when there is indeed a safety hazard.

 

BS

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30 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

When I re-stage my SG and it goes closed what does the TO do?  He has me open it and show empty to him/her.  This change would follow along those lines.

 

As far as "rifle being treated differently than a unloaded shotgun" - currently the rifle is being treated differently.  From the SHB, pg 16, under "Safe Conditions During a Course of FIre - Shotguns"

"A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only:

   -  Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.

   -  Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed."

 

So, a shotgun can be moved from point A to point B with the action closed and empty chamber.  A rifle, however, with the action closed, empty chamber, and hammer cocked will get you a SDQ.

 

That is part of the reasoning for the modification to the rule.  Not to throw the rule out.  But to penalize when there is indeed a safety hazard.

 

BS

You haven't described a difference in how they are treated.  A shotgun may be moved with action closed, hammers down on empty chambers or expended rounds, same for a rifle.  What's the difference you're referring to? 

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1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

So, a shotgun can be moved from point A to point B with the action closed and empty chamber.  A rifle, however, with the action closed, empty chamber, and hammer cocked will get you a SDQ.

 

 

Negative. A shotgun can be moved from point A to point B with the action closed, empty chamber, hammers down on the empty chamber or spent rounds. It CAN NOT move closed with the hammer(s) cocked.

 

A shotgun with the action closed, empty chamber, and hammer cocked DOES CURRENTLY get you a SDQ.

 

If you move from point A to point B with a 97 or 87 with the action closed, hammer cocked, empty, you earn a SDQ.

 

If you move from point A to point B with a double, action closed with one or more of the hammers cocked, empty, you earn a SDQ. And remember, a hammerless double cocks those hammers when you open the action!

 

SHB PG 23 - emphasis added

Quote

Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked.

 

You prove my point in that folks will not pick up on the nuances of this rule change.

 

So, again, I ask, why does this proposal treat rifle and shotgun differently.

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Under the current PROPOSED rule, the no call applies only to rifles.

Moving from the loading table to the active firing line with a closed and empty and cocked shotgun would still be a Stage Disqualification.

Moving (taking two steps) from the active firing line with either long gun CLOSED, EMPTY, and COCKED toward the unloading table will still be a Stage Disqualification.

 

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1 minute ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Under the current PROPOSED rule, the no call applies only to rifles.

Moving from the loading table to the active firing line with a closed and empty and cocked shotgun would still be a Stage Disqualification.

Moving (taking two steps) from the active firing line with either long gun CLOSED, EMPTY, and COCKED toward the unloading table will still be a Stage Disqualification.

 

 

And moving along the stage during the course of fire with either long gun CLOSED, EMPTY, and COCKED will still be a Stage Disqualification.

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1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

As far as "rifle being treated differently than a unloaded shotgun" - currently the rifle is being treated differently.  From the SHB, pg 16, under "Safe Conditions During a Course of FIre - Shotguns"

"A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only:

   -  Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.

   -  Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed."

 

 

As far as there being differences between rifle and shotgun currently for movement, they are currently exactly the same, just ordered differently.

 

SHB pg 16

Quote

A rifle is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage) in the following condition only:
- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed.
- Action open, round on carrier or in chamber.

 

SHB pg 16

Quote

A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only:
- Action open, round in chamber or on carrier.
- Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action
closed.

 

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18 hours ago, Irish-Pat said:

When I go to the loading table I always work the action on my rifle and snap it on the empty chamber.  Then I load it.  Never had a problem with the hammer being left cocked.  Leave the rule alone.  Irish Pat

I'm a bit reluctant to do this.

See the third up from the bottom of SDQ's

 

Screenshot_2019-11-05-10-32-58.thumb.png.966f7f5b3e15a699f1be142899abd785.png

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1 minute ago, Brazos Bo said:

I'm a bit reluctant to do this.

See the third up from the bottom of SDQ's

 

Screenshot_2019-11-05-10-32-58.thumb.png.966f7f5b3e15a699f1be142899abd785.png

 

SHB pg 44

Quote

Dry firing – the act of bringing an unloaded firearm into a shooting position, cocking the
hammer, and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally.

 

If you do not bring the firearm into a shooting position, you are not dry firing regardless of whatever else the shooter does.

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3 minutes ago, Brazos Bo said:

I'm a bit reluctant to do this.

See the third up from the bottom of SDQ's

 

Screenshot_2019-11-05-10-32-58.thumb.png.966f7f5b3e15a699f1be142899abd785.png

What Irish described is not dry firing. Dry firing at the loading table includes the requirement that you be holding the gun as if you were going to fire it.

 

Edited to add that as usual Branchwater is too fast for me.

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Here is a real world application of the rules, as they are currently written, and will still hold true even if the proposed change passes:

 

Shooter is to shoot rifle at position A and restage rifle on vertical rack at position B, about 5 yards down range.

 

Shooter 1 goes up and shoots the rifle, moves to position B, and, during the course of restaging the rifle at position B, the lever closes. The hammer is still cocked. At the end of the course of fire, the TO has the shooter come over and open the lever, nothing comes out, everything is fine as the rifle was staged in a safe manner and the shooter did not change locations with a closed, cocked long gun.

 

OK so far, Shooter 1 grabs their rifle and, not paying attention, bumps the lever of their rifle into their shotgun held in their other hand, closing the action of the rifle. As soon as that shooter takes their second step towards the ULT, they have earned a SDQ for changing locations with the cocked rifle, empty, and action closed.

 

Shooter 2 goes up and shoots the rifle, shoots the gun dry, ejects the last round, closes the lever, pulls the trigger to drop the hammer, then moves to position B to restage the rifle. At the end of the course of fire, the TO has the shooter come over and open the lever, nothing comes out, everything is fine as the rifle was staged in a safe manner and the shooter did not change locations with a closed, cocked long gun. It was hammer down on an empty chamber and safe for movement.

 

Shooter 3 goes up and shoots the rifle, shoots the gun dry, ejects the last round, closes the lever, then moves to position B to restage the rifle. As soon as that shooter takes their second step, they have earned a SDQ for changing locations with the cocked rifle, empty, and action closed.

 

Shooter 4 grabs their 97 shotgun by the forearm at the loading table and the weight of the gun closes the action of the gun as they head to the staging position.  As soon as that shooter takes their second step, they have earned a SDQ for changing locations with the cocked shotgun, empty, and action closed.

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I have had to call for assistance after leaving the loading table and my double closed on me. I was holding a rifle and a closed cocked shotgun. Had to wait on someone to open the shotgun for me. No problem.

Branchwater, you and PWB need a raise. How does 200% sound?

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I get that this rule change might create some ambiguity that will require some attention by the ROC. Ok let them look at it and make some suggestions as  to how to bring things into line.  As for this rule, being about safety, I say BS to that..  Winchester and Marlin both say the only safe way to handle a loaded rifle is on half cock, yet we would SQ any shooter who moves from the LT to the Firing line, with a rifle on half cock.  Why was half cock deemed to be just as bad as a fully cocked hammer.  You might hear a whole bunch of BS, but come on the reason is really simple.  In its infancy SASS had a whole bunch of shooters who were not nearly as knowledgeable about lever guns as they are now.  So to avoid any possibility of not knowing the difference between fully cocked and half cock, lets just go with the hammer fully down.   This rule change is a good step in the right direction, it will be even better once  the ROC bring all the subsequent changes into line.  One of the dumbest reasons to not embrace change, is well we have always done it that way..  Please remember all children soil their pants, until they learn a better way.  But if you still soil your pants  because you have always done it that way....it sucks to be you.

Tres Pinos  

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5 hours ago, Tres Pinos #1702 said:

As for this rule, being about safety, I say BS to that..  Winchester and Marlin both say the only safe way to handle a loaded rifle is on half cock, yet we would SQ any shooter who moves from the LT to the Firing line, with a rifle on half cock.  Why was half cock deemed to be just as bad as a fully cocked hammer.  

 

If the proposed rule change were to deal only with a rifle on half-cock, I believe a lot of people would have less heartburn with this. After all, it would bring it more in line with the rules for Wild Bunch.

 

However, this proposed rule change makes no distinction between full cock and half cock.

 

Should we consider it safe for a shooter to travel with a fully cock rifle? If so, why not the shotgun? Why not during the course of fire? Why not on the travel to the unloading table?

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@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Here is another question... If this passes, what is the penalty for a shooter starting the stage with the rifle on full or half cock because the TO didn't catch that it was cocked and have the shooter go through the little prescribe dance before the beep?

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On 11/6/2019 at 12:54 AM, Tres Pinos #1702 said:

Winchester and Marlin both say the only safe way to handle a loaded rifle is on half cock, yet we would SQ any shooter who moves from the LT to the Firing line, with a rifle on half cock.    One of the dumbest reasons to not embrace change, is well we have always done it that way..  Please remember all children soil their pants, until they learn a better way.  But if you still soil your pants  because you have always done it that way....it sucks to be you.

Tres Pinos  

 

Reread the proposal.  It has nothing to do with "half-cock".  It is Yes or No.  There is no modification of the question allowed for consideration of half-cock.  When I've had to DQ people it has been almost always for moving on Full Cock.  So again, the only options before us are Yes or No.

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Perhaps the SG should be addressed next. I'm definitely for safety,  but let's ensure that a bit of common sense is used when drawing up the rules. 

 

Some examples : empty closed SG, spent hull in SG, spent brass on carrier.  None of these can cause any harm to an individual.  But each carries a safety penalty. 

 

Sorry for going off on a  tangent. 

BS

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9 hours ago, Tres Pinos #1702 said:

  You might hear a whole bunch of BS, but come on the reason is really simple.  In its infancy SASS had a whole bunch of shooters who were not nearly as knowledgeable about lever guns as they are now.  So to avoid any possibility of not knowing the difference between fully cocked and half cock, lets just go with the hammer fully down. 

Tres Pinos  

I'm gonna throw my .02 in there. Even if that is the original reason for the rule, we have new shooters joining that have NEVER even fired a gun.

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28 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Perhaps the SG should be addressed next. I'm definitely for safety,  but let's ensure that a bit of common sense is used when drawing up the rules. 

 

Some examples : empty closed SG, spent hull in SG, spent brass on carrier.  None of these can cause any harm to an individual.  But each carries a safety penalty. 

 

Sorry for going off on a  tangent. 

BS

Help me understand. 

What would cause there to be spent brass on a carrier? If it is spent, and is pulled out of the chamber, isn't it ejected?  Are you referring to a spent round that pulls back out of the chamber, but fails to fully eject because the lever is only partially opened?  If so is a partially (80%) opened lever/bolt considered an "open" or "closed" action?  WTC on that????? 

Just clarifying. 

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7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Help me understand. 

What would cause there to be spent brass on a carrier? If it is spent, and is pulled out of the chamber, isn't it ejected?  Are you referring to a spent round that pulls back out of the chamber, but fails to fully eject because the lever is only partially opened?  If so is a partially (80%) opened lever/bolt considered an "open" or "closed" action?  WTC on that????? 

Just clarifying. 

Minor Safety

 

SHB 17-18

Quote

Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely
downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round
being fired. If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being
fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of
the stage under the observation of the CRO/TO. Should an empty casing/hull be
ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open
action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed. However, if the action
is opened and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed
for a long gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s

hands”. In this case, there is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing
the next firearm, as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands.
o If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving
the shooters hand(s) at the unloading area.
o This does not apply to firearms shot out of sequence, made safe, and then
restaged.

 

SHB pg 22

Quote

Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine, action, or carrier of the long gun in
which it was loaded.

 

SHB pg 28

Quote

A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left
in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded,
results in a Minor Safety Violation.

 

SHB pg 42

Quote

Empty or live round in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded after the next firearm is fired, or
if last firearm, put down on the unloading table.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 If so is a partially (80%) opened lever/bolt considered an "open" or "closed" action?  WTC on that????? 

OPEN

 

SHB pg 43

Quote

Action Closed (lever & pump action long guns) – BOLT in “full battery” ( e.g., unable to
further close by manipulation of the lever or pump mechanism).

 

Action Closed – (SxS & single-shot firearms) functional firearm that requires
manipulation of the opening mechanism (e.g., top/side lever/button) to open the
action.

 

Action Open (lever & pump action long guns) – BOLT not closed completely.

 

Action Open– (SxS & single-shot firearms) – functional firearm that opens without
manipulation of the release mechanism (e.g., top/side lever/button)

 

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38 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

empty closed SG, spent hull in SG, spent brass on carrier.  None of these can cause any harm to an individual.  But each carries a safety penalty.

 

Well, also sweeping someone with an unloaded gun or dropping an unloaded gun "can't cause any harm" (unless it falls on your toe...), but here this comes into play:

On 11/5/2019 at 2:50 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

That's why we have multiple layered safety rules, so one instance of carelessness hopefully isn't enough to get someone hurt.

 

Basically, also a life round in the chamber isn't dangerous as long as you haven't an AD and even then you had to point at someone to "cause harm"...

 

I am glad that violating one safety rule (EVERY OF THE SAFETY RULES) can't cause harm.

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On 11/5/2019 at 9:29 AM, Barry Sloe said:

So, a shotgun can be moved from point A to point B with the action closed and empty chamber.  A rifle, however, with the action closed, empty chamber, and hammer cocked will get you a SDQ.

No it cannot, if the shotgun closes on an empty chamber it is still cocked, penalty applies....can only move with shotgun uncocked on empty rounds or empty chamber...uncocked

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Shooters at clubs are probably going to vote to change this safety rule, as they don’t want a penalty for it. It happens quite frequently because they aren’t called on it. Changing this safety rule is not fixing the real problem; it appears to be a reaction to minimizing the complaints of getting a SDQ penalty. The real issue is about TOs not making the calls; picking and choosing which rules they like and don’t like. I’d bet this happens at every match. I see comments to FB posts all of the time where shooters say they wouldn’t make the call in certain scenarios; even when it’s clear in the rules what the penalty is...because they don’t like the rule. 

** Making the calls will change the behavior of the shooters to be more attentive to their firearms. **

 

I guarantee that most TGs aren’t going to explain the issues and risks of changing the rule to their club members. The reason I’m saying that is that most haven’t responded to past votes (per reports from the SASS office) and many don’t know the rules or reason for a rule.

 

I would think that SASS as a whole (which includes the SASS office, the founders, the ROC, and the shooters) would want to maintain SASS’s reputation of being the safest shooting sport in the world. Would like the ROC and founding members to reconsider completely pulling out a safety rule based on a Yes/No vote (that doesn’t have a response for comments from the TGs for other considerations on the rule).

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On 11/6/2019 at 10:40 AM, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Help me understand. 

What would cause there to be spent brass on a carrier? If it is spent, and is pulled out of the chamber, isn't it ejected? 

 

...If so is a partially (80%) opened lever/bolt considered an "open" or "closed" action? 

 

There have been instances where the extractor on my Marlin has been clogged by fouling or debris and has failed to properly extract a round, so the ejector can't function as it should, then the empty case slides back onto the carrier.  MSV.  Fixed that with a stronger, aftermarket extractor.  If I fail to open the lever all the way when putting the rifle down, the case can't be ejected either.

 

With a '73 or '66, sometimes the extractor/ejector gets some crud under it and fails to launch the case.  Sometimes the lever isn't opened all the way when the shooter puts the rifle down, and the case stays on the carrier.

 

As to Open/Closed lever/bolt... if it's not closed, it's open.  Penalty depends on if there is an empty case or live cartridge in the gun and where, and when it is discovered... After the next gun is cocked?

 

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If the chamber is empty, then having the hammer fall on it when the rifle is pointed in a safe direction doesn't make it any different than lowering the hammer at the loading table, SO LONG AS THE CHAMBER IS EMPTY! 

 

The real problem is if there is a round in the chamber.  If the shooter jacks out a round on the first levering, it's a SDQ.  If the rifle goes bang when the hammer is dropped, it's a SDQ.  In both of these cases, the unsafe act has already occurred and we already, and will with the proposed rule, penalize it.

 

This is one of the reasons for carrying the guns vertically to the line and not sweeping anyone just in case there is a round in the chamber.  Once the round is in the chamber and we're moving we have an issue.   We don't want movement with a live round in the chamber and the hammer down.  That's what the rules concentrate on doing.  

 

We have made moving with a cocked hammer on an empty chamber an administrative penalty.  The gun can't go bang.   I think the SDQ for a rifle that is safe is too severe.

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15 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

We have made moving with a cocked hammer on an empty chamber an administrative penalty.  The gun can't go bang.   I think the SDQ for a rifle that is safe is too severe.

 

I absolutely understand your point. But with the same argumentation you should then lower the penalty for a dropped empty firearm, sweeping anyone with an unloaded firearm, leaving the firing line after stage has begun before all firearms have been verified as clear, violating of the 170 rule, all of them result in a SDQ, too, despite the gun "can't go bang". I myself certainly wouldn't lower those penalties (and suppose most shooters wouldn't). Why? You never know if there's a round in the chamber. Well, the shooter himself (and the LTO) might be 99.x% sure that the chamber is empty and therefore the penalty seems harsh for him/her, but everyone else on the site doesn't know. If I see someone walking by with a cocked gun I feel very uncomfortable, the same as I do when swept with a gun even if I know there's most likely no round in the chamber.

 

Basically, it's an easy rule to follow and a little bit of concentration and mindfulness while handling firearms doesn't hurt. Please leave it as it is.

 

Treat every firearm always as if it were loaded.

 

Equanimous

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I look at this like the dropped round rule.  After all the warnings and hand wringing the effect of the rule on safety was nothing.   We have plenty of rules regarding keeping control of the guns, and I wouldn't change them.  Most of the dropped rounds ended up on a prop, and the shooter picked them up and continued.  I've never seen a problem with it.

 

We have plenty of rules on sweeping which no one is suggesting we change.  We have plenty of rules on how live rounds in the chamber should be handled.  Again, no one suggesting we change those.   We treat every firearm as if it were loaded, as you state.   I just think that at the start of the stage, if we can ensure the hammer is down on an empty chamber, then safety is not compromised, the shooter is happy, and the TO doesn't have to DQ anybody.

 

 

3 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

 

I absolutely understand your point. But with the same argumentation you should then lower the penalty for a dropped empty firearm, sweeping anyone with an unloaded firearm, leaving the firing line after stage has begun before all firearms have been verified as clear, violating of the 170 rule, all of them result in a SDQ, too, despite the gun "can't go bang". I myself certainly wouldn't lower those penalties (and suppose most shooters wouldn't). Why? You never know if there's a round in the chamber. Well, the shooter himself (and the LTO) might be 99.x% sure that the chamber is empty and therefore the penalty seems harsh for him/her, but everyone else on the site doesn't know. If I see someone walking by with a cocked gun I feel very uncomfortable, the same as I do when swept with a gun even if I know there's most likely no round in the chamber.

 

Basically, it's an easy rule to follow and a little bit of concentration and mindfulness while handling firearms doesn't hurt. Please leave it as it is.

 

Treat every firearm always as if it were loaded.

 

Equanimous

 

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3 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

I look at this like the dropped round rule.  After all the warnings and hand wringing the effect of the rule on safety was nothing.   We have plenty of rules regarding keeping control of the guns, and I wouldn't change them.  Most of the dropped rounds ended up on a prop, and the shooter picked them up and continued.  I've never seen a problem with it.

 

We have plenty of rules on sweeping which no one is suggesting we change.  We have plenty of rules on how live rounds in the chamber should be handled.  Again, no one suggesting we change those.   We treat every firearm as if it were loaded, as you state.   I just think that at the start of the stage, if we can ensure the hammer is down on an empty chamber, then safety is not compromised, the shooter is happy, and the TO doesn't have to DQ anybody.

 

 

 

 

If it is not a safety issue, then why should we not allow it at any time with any long gun then?

 

Why not allow the shotgun to be brought up to the line empty, closed and cocked?

 

Why not allow the rifle to be brought from the line to the ULT empty, closed, and cocked?

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48 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

If it is not a safety issue, then why should we not allow it at any time with any long gun then?

 

Why not allow the shotgun to be brought up to the line empty, closed and cocked?

 

Why not allow the rifle to be brought from the line to the ULT empty, closed, and cocked?

 

The reason is simple - the rules.  It's not that it is unsafe because in none of those instances are the firearms going to go bang, they are empty.  And it is easy enough for any RO to check/verify that the firearm is in-fact empty.

 

There seem to be a lot of people more than willing to go over the top on safety.  That's not always a bad thing, but unless common sense is allowed in, then the over the top is beyond what is needed.  Explain what is unsafe about having a spent hull in a shotgun chamber?  Or a spent casing on the carrier or stove-piped in a rifle?  Nothing is going to go bang, the round has been expended.  But it is a RULE and the penalty is a Minor Safety Violation.

 

Safety is a good thing.  Applying rules without a dose of common sense can make things a bit ridiculous.

 

Be safe,

BS

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15 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

 

The reason is simple - the rules.  It's not that it is unsafe because in none of those instances are the firearms going to go bang, they are empty.  And it is easy enough for any RO to check/verify that the firearm is in-fact empty.

 

There seem to be a lot of people more than willing to go over the top on safety.  That's not always a bad thing, but unless common sense is allowed in, then the over the top is beyond what is needed.  Explain what is unsafe about having a spent hull in a shotgun chamber?  Or a spent casing on the carrier or stove-piped in a rifle?  Nothing is going to go bang, the round has been expended.  But it is a RULE and the penalty is a Minor Safety Violation.

 

Safety is a good thing.  Applying rules without a dose of common sense can make things a bit ridiculous.

 

Be safe,

BS

So why only change the rule in this one instance? 

 

Why not remove the inconsistency and change the rule to allow the same movement at any time with any long gun then?

 

why propose to change only the rifle, only from the LT to the line?

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It's called baby steps.  I proposed the original rule change to a TG at least a year ago.  Trying to get too many rules changed would bring the changes to a standstill. 

 

BS

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