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Crusty Knees

TG asked for our opinion

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The TG of a club I've begun to shoot at asked how we wanted him to vote.  I haven't joined up yet, but I've been lurking here and have questions.

 

He wanted to know if the penalty for moving from the loading table to the shooting line with the hammer back on a loaded rifle, without a round in the action, should be made a no call.   I understand that presently it is a SDQ to move with a cocked loaded rifle.

OK, I get that and the question.

 

But, if that passes, moving from the loading table to the shooting line with an empty double-barreled shotgun that closes while you're walking is a SDQ, and that's not even loaded.

 

Wouldn't that make for very inconsistent rules?  Moving with a cocked, loaded gun is ok, but moving with a cocked UNloaded gun gets you DQ'd?

 

I'm just learning and puzzling this thing through.

Thanks,

CK

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16 minutes ago, Crusty Knees said:

The TG of a club I've begun to shoot at asked how we wanted him to vote.  I haven't joined up yet, but I've been lurking here and have questions.

 

He wanted to know if the penalty for moving from the loading table to the shooting line with the hammer back on a loaded rifle, without a round in the action, should be made a no call.   I understand that presently it is a SDQ to move with a cocked loaded rifle.

OK, I get that and the question.

 

But, if that passes, moving from the loading table to the shooting line with an empty double-barreled shotgun that closes while you're walking is a SDQ, and that's not even loaded.

 

Wouldn't that make for very inconsistent rules?  Moving with a cocked, loaded gun is ok, but moving with a cocked UNloaded gun gets you DQ'd?

 

I'm just learning and puzzling this thing through.

Thanks,

CK

 

 

The inconsistency with the calls is one of the things that troubles me about this as well.

 

You are correct that the proposed change makes is OK to move from the LT to the Firing Ling with a cocked, loaded rifle as long as there is no round in the chamber. 

 

You are correct that it will still be a SDQ to move from the LT to the firing line with a closed, cocked, empty shotgun.

 

It will also still be a SDQ to change position on the firing line with a closed, cocked, unloaded rifle.

 

It will also still be a SDQ to move from the firing line to the ULT with a closed, cocked, unloaded rifle.

 

There are a lot of nuances in the proposal that are going to cause a lot of inconsistent calls.

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Yep, seems very inconsistent to me.  The more complex we make the rules, the harder it is to run a match without argument, and the harder it is for a new shooter to learn all the rules.   Both would be bad outcomes, IMHO.  Better if shooters learn to drop and check hammers at the LT.

 

Good luck, GJ

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The cocked loaded rifle, w/o ammo in the chamber should be a SDQ.  The reason being that it’s easy enough to accidentally crank a round into the chamber and then, if it’s going to discharge accidentally, it’s likely safer that happen at the loading table.

 

Same way with the shotgun.  No one knows that it’s unloaded if it snaps shut.  SDQ

 

The penalties are there to reinforce the spirit of the rules, and to instill attention to safety.   Changing these infractions to “no calls” will only lead to carelessness.

 

But, you decide which path to take.

 

Cat Brules

 

 

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I still say we change the definition of the "firing line" to exclude the LT and ULT. Make the penalty just on the newly defined firing line. Once the hand comes off the rifle at the firing line, then call the penalty.

 

Fyi- I have no problem with the rule as written, just the definition of the firing line.

Edited by Tennessee williams
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The question should have been something like this: should the current rule be changed to - 

1) if a shooter arrives at the firing line with the hammer back on the rifle.  TO has the shooter aim the rifle safely down range and pull the trigger.  If it goes bang assess the penalty.  If it goes click have the shooter stage their firearms and shoot the stage.

 

BS

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I don't have an issue with the current rule, however, I think exception could be made for a hammer on the safety notch due to letting off the trigger B4 the hammer was all the way down.

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An Opinion.  The rules, as currently written are just fine.  Leave them alone.

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When I go to the loading table I always work the action on my rifle and snap it on the empty chamber.  Then I load it.  Never had a problem with the hammer being left cocked.  Leave the rule alone.  Irish Pat

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1 hour ago, Cat Brules said:

The cocked loaded rifle, w/o ammo in the chamber should be a SDQ.  The reason being that it’s easy enough to accidentally crank a round into the chamber and then, if it’s going to discharge accidentally, it’s likely safer that happen at the loading table.

 

Same way with the shotgun.  No one knows that it’s unloaded if it snaps shut.  SDQ

 

The penalties are there to reinforce the spirit of the rules, and to instill attention to safety.   Changing these infractions to “no calls” will only lead to carelessness.

 

But, you decide which path to take.

 

Cat Brules

 

 

 

I'm not understanding your response.  The majority of folks and TGs I've seen post on the Wire in previous threads seem to be leaning towards making it ok to walk with a cocked loaded rifle from LT to staging position.  I just opined that this would make for very inconsistent rules.  I can't vote on this and "decide which path to take".   Only SASS members and ultimately TGs can vote on this.   I'm on the outside looking in right now, until I send in my membership application.

 

I was just thinking that a rule ought to be a rule from beginning to end.  But, whatever y'all decide.  I'll play the game however it's written. 

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

An Opinion.  The rules, as currently written are just fine.  Leave them alone.

 

48 minutes ago, Irish-Pat said:

When I go to the loading table I always work the action on my rifle and snap it on the empty chamber.  Then I load it.  Never had a problem with the hammer being left cocked.  Leave the rule alone.  Irish Pat

 

I don’t see what the problem is. It’s a simple matter to lever the rifle closed and lower the hammer before you begin loading. If a lightning style rifle, load, then work the slide forward and drop the hammer. The last thing I want as a TO is to have a shooter walking toward me with a cocked rifle. If your excuse is being distracted at the loading table and forgetting to lower the hammer, then shame on you. As a shooter you should be as focused on loading and unloading your firearms as you are in shooting. 

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58 minutes ago, Irish-Pat said:

When I go to the loading table I always work the action on my rifle and snap it on the empty chamber.  Then I load it.  Never had a problem with the hammer being left cocked.  Leave the rule alone.  Irish Pat

The Lightning rifle is loaded with the action open. Attention must be paid to lowering the hammer after closing the action on an empty chamber.

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1 hour ago, Irish-Pat said:

When I go to the loading table I always work the action on my rifle and snap it on the empty chamber.  Then I load it.  Never had a problem with the hammer being left cocked.  Leave the rule alone.  Irish Pat

 Be careful not to shoulder the rifle when you "snap it".  That would be a dry fire at the LT.  Stage DQ. 

 

So hypothetically, WTC if the rifle is laid down on the table when snapped, and it fires a round downrange (say it hits nothing within ten feet)? 

1.  SDQ on prior stage (if same day) for arriving at the LT with a loaded firearm. 

2.  Is the Uncontrolled Discharge "deemed unsafe" if it goes downrange and hits no props? (MDQ)? 

I thought I recalled a DQ penalty  for discharging a live round at the LT, but I don't see it in the current rules.  Did I miss it? 

 

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6 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

So hypothetically, WTC if the rifle is laid down on the table when snapped, and it fires a round downrange (say it hits nothing within ten feet)? 

1.  SDQ on prior stage (if same day) for arriving at the LT with a loaded firearm. 

2.  Is the Uncontrolled Discharge "deemed unsafe" if it goes downrange and hits no props? (MDQ)? 

I thought I recalled a DQ penalty  for discharging a live round at the LT, but I don't see it in the current rules.  Did I miss it? 

 

 

MDQ

 

SHB pg 24

Quote

Any  discharge  at  the  loading  or  unloading  areas. 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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When I go to the loading table I always work the action on my rifle and snap it on the empty chamber.  Then I load it.  Never had a problem with the hammer being left cocked.  Leave the rule alone.  Irish Pat

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The rifle is on the table loading gate up. If it fires it is  a MDQ.  Has not happened yet knock on wood.  I started in sass in 1998,  Irish Pat sass 19486

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3 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

An Opinion.  The rules, as currently written are just fine.  Leave them alone.

He's right ya know ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

MDQ

 

SHB pg 24

 

 

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

MDQ

 

SHB pg 24

 

Thank you.  That is the passage I was looking for.  I note it is absent from the pocket card on P. 42.  

 

I do wish someone (I'd be willing) would go through the SHB and other attendant RO manuals and use Section and subsection numbers that can suscinctly be cross-referenced (and a good index) to move all of the rules for particular subjects under the same heading,  just like is done in writing more formal laws and regulations.   It would eliminate a lot of searching, recalling, deliberation and debate, here and elsewhere, to be able to look in an index, then go to ONE section to find all of the pertinent discussion and cross references.   

 

No offense meant to anybody, but in the present SHB, things like dropped firearms, loading/unloading area rules, Stage Operations Covenants, unintended discharges, and many others appear in numerous places.  Finding one of them doesn't assure you have seen everything. 

 

Just stating my own humble opinion.   Others will disagree I am sure.   That's OK.  

  

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13 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

Thank you.  That is the passage I was looking for.  I note it is absent from the pocket card on P. 42.  

 

 

SHB pg 42

Quote

Discharge impacting within 5 feet from shooter, while on the line or any discharge away from the firing line.   Any discharge in the loading or unloading areas

 

Untitled.png.ac957ec2dca61ad645518902443d054a.png

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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43 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

SHB pg 42

 

My error.   That's embarrasing.

  I read that item about four times, but each time I stopped reading too soon, assuming it went on to address discharges between 5 and 10 feet.  Again, my error.  Thanks. DDD

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I was working Bordertown as Expeditor.  A gentleman came up, I looked him over and told him that his hammer didn't look right.  It was on the "safety" position.  He worked the hammer and trigger for a few seconds to get the hammer fully down. 

As written,  going to the firing line with the hammer at "safety" is currently a SDQ.  Other than "that's the way it's always been", can someone explain what is unsafe with the hammer on safety? 

Let's put some common sense into the rules and change this one. 

 

BS

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24 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

I was working Bordertown as Expeditor.  A gentleman came up, I looked him over and told him that his hammer didn't look right.  It was on the "safety" position.  He worked the hammer and trigger for a few seconds to get the hammer fully down. 

As written,  going to the firing line with the hammer at "safety" is currently a SDQ.  Other than "that's the way it's always been", can someone explain what is unsafe with the hammer on safety? 

Let's put some common sense into the rules and change this one. 

 

BS

The proposed rule change is to allow it at half cock or full, without distinction.

 

If it is safe to go from LT to the firing line with a loaded, closed, cocked rifle, why is it unsafe to do the same with an unloaded SG?

 

If it is safe to go from LT to the firing line with a closed, cocked rifle, why is it unsafe to do the same during the course of fire? Why is it unsafe to do the same from the firing line to the ULT?

 

The biggest problem I see with the proposed change is the inconsistency that it leaves in the handling of the same situation.

 

And, one of the only arguments I keep hearing for it center around the fact that many clubs do not find it necessary to have Loading Table Officers anymore. An attentive LTO should have cought the issue prior to sending the shooter to the XO spot, preventing the SDQ the shooter earned all by himself if he took 2 or more steps to get from the LT to you.

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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This is making my head hurt.  Even the questions about answers to questions cruise into disinterest.

 

The subject rules, including the penalties should remain as they are.

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8 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

The proposed rule change is to allow it at half cock or full, without distinction.

 

If it is safe to go from LT to the firing line with a loaded, closed, cocked rifle, why is it unsafe to do the same with an unloaded SG?

 

If it is safe to go from LT to the firing line with a closed, cocked rifle, why is it unsafe to do the same during the course of fire? Why is it unsafe to do the same from the firing line to the ULT?

 

The biggest problem I see with the proposed change is the inconsistency that it leaves in the handling of the same situation.

 

And, one of the only arguments I keep hearing for it center around the fact that many clubs do not find it necessary to have Loading Table Officers anymore. An attentive LTO should have cought the issue prior to sending the shooter to the XO spot, preventing the SDQ the shooter earned all by himself if he took 2 or more steps to get from the LT to you.

 

SASS CAS has been tagged as one of the most safest shooting sports in the world. Taking away the LTO and potential issues with proposed rifle hammer change impacts the safety stance of this game.

 

Clubs will usually say watch each other at the loading table - so they don’t have to have that extra person working it. Well, I rarely see people watching folks load their guns at the LT. If that were happening, then folks wouldn’t load 10 rounds on 9 round stage nor walk up to the line with a cocked hammer. Granted, an inattentive LTO may not catch it, but the LTO minimizes the risks more than rare occurrences of folks actually checking each other at the LT.

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A no call for a rifle moved from the LT to the line with a cocked hammer is IMHO a discrepancy to the very first rule of gun safety which is "Treat every firearm always as if it were loaded."

 

A bit exaggerated: What's next? No call for having a person swept if the gun just goes *click* afterwards? Would follow the same logic...

 

Just my opinion, Equanimous

 

P.S.: Maybe the penalty should be changed to an hour of practice of safe gun handling..? :ph34r:

Edited by Equanimous Phil
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I don’t support this change as it’s currently proposed due to the discrepancies it creates, as others have mentioned.  I do think the idea of having different penalties for moving with a cocked hammer depending upon whether it’s over a live round or not is worthy of consideration. Currently we have the same penalty, SDQ, even though one action is, IMO, much more dangerous.

 

I would support changing the penalty for moving with a cocked hammer over an empty chamber to an MSV, while keeping the penalty for moving with a cocked hammer over a live round as a SDQ.

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From reading here and listening to other conversations about the topic, it appears most people agree it is not a safe condition for the rifle to leave the LT cocked or for the shotgun to close after leaving the LT. One issue seems to be the penalty is overly harsh if the rifle only goes click not bang when the trigger is pulled or the shotgun is empty when opened. Also another issue seems to be if these conditions are deemed a no call, it will reduce the safety of the game by making shooters less vigilante about the condition of their firearms before leaving the LT.

If a change needs to be made why not change the penalty for click not bang and the shotgun closing to a MINOR SAFETY instead of a SDQ? There will still be a penalty, it just wouldn't be as harsh.

 

It looks like Captain Bill types faster than I do.

Edited by Double Barrel, SASS 34765
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I don't know who would be stupid enough to have the hammer cocked and a live round in the chamber but IF it happened only ONCE it could be a disaster! I could see this happening with a new shooter. Keep the rule the same!

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47 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I don't know who would be stupid enough to have the hammer cocked and a live round in the chamber but IF it happened only ONCE it could be a disaster! I could see this happening with a new shooter. Keep the rule the same!

I don't think it's about stupidity.  I think it's more a matter of carelessness or getting distracted at a critical time.  Many have posted about "I always do this....."  Well, most of us ALWAYS do something or other, until we don't.  I always ground my shotgun on a table, until I missed it one time and picked up a SDQ (which I deserved).    That's why we have multiple layered safety rules, so one instance of carelessness hopefully isn't enough to get someone hurt.

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Why are we always trying to fix the things that are NOT broke. The shooter has to take responsibility for his actions. Play the game and have fun.

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't think it's about stupidity.  I think it's more a matter of carelessness or getting distracted at a critical time.  Many have posted about "I always do this....."  Well, most of us ALWAYS do something or other, until we don't.  I always ground my shotgun on a table, until I missed it one time and picked up a SDQ (which I deserved).    That's why we have multiple layered safety rules, so one instance of carelessness hopefully isn't enough to get someone hurt.

Don't think that a new shooter would not do something stupid! I've seen it happen many times. It CAN be stupidity!

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9 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Don't think that a new shooter would not do something stupid! I've seen it happen many times. It CAN be stupidity!

Very true, but you can't fix stupid, and if that's what's causing it eventually that shooter won't be in the game anymore.  I think the majority of the safety issues we have are not related to stupidity, just my opinion

 

 

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10 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

I was working Bordertown as Expeditor.  A gentleman came up, I looked him over and told him that his hammer didn't look right.  It was on the "safety" position.  He worked the hammer and trigger for a few seconds to get the hammer fully down. 

As written,  going to the firing line with the hammer at "safety" is currently a SDQ.  Other than "that's the way it's always been", can someone explain what is unsafe with the hammer on safety? 

Let's put some common sense into the rules and change this one. 

 

BS

 

Two things.  I've had to DQ shooters because the hammers were fully cocked.  Doing away with the rule would allow that without penalty.  The question before the TGs is a simple Yes/No... no qualifiers.  It doesn't make a distinction between full cock and safety.  The other is that "safety" is a simple mechanical stop.  We've seen plenty of pistol and rifle hammers with worn sears or worn hammer stops.   The best "safety" is between the ears and just making sure the hammer is down before moving with the gun.

 

You can't move with a cocked loaded pistols/rifle after the beep, why should you be allowed to before the beep?

What could be safer than an obviously empty shotgun?  But if it closes and and you keep moving, you are done for that stage.

 

Inconsistent rules are an R.O.'s nightmare.  

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30 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 Doing away with the rule would allow that without penalty.  The question before the TGs is a simple Yes/No... no qualifiers. 

 

That's why it should have been addressed the way I wrote it.  It does not do away with the rule. It modifies the rule such that the shooter shows the TO whether or not there is a live round under the hammer or not.  Live round is penalized,  otherwise no call.

No, I am not a TG.  I did, however, submit this change through a TG for consideration.

 

BS

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