Kirk James Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 How many spotters need to see a procedural if the TO does not see it? TO could not see much through the window due to the size of the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 One is enough IF the TO agrees. Three is not enough IF the TO doesn't agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 1 Have seen many times only one will catch something. When as a TO I will ask what it was. Once they tell me. I will say yes. Dang. They did do that. Or no. That was not a P. And here is why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major BS Walker Regulator Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: One is enough IF the TO agrees. Three is not enough IF the TO doesn't agree. Mr. Captain hit the nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 If I as the TO or one of the spotters calls a P I will check with the 3 spotters and see if they saw what I saw or vice versa. A lot of times what someone thinks is a P isn't. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 11 hours ago, Kirk James said: How many spotters need to see a procedural if the TO does not see it? TO could not see much through the window due to the size of the shooter. Sounds like a window that ought to be enlarged. The T. O. has to be able to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said: Sounds like a window that ought to be enlarged. The T. O. has to be able to see. DDD: I say this with some sarcasm. See What? Heck, there are numerous occasions where ya got 3 spotters actually watching and moving to positions to see targets adequately and they still manage to miss things. On a more realistic comment, we have props that a shooter grabs their SG, shoots 2 and moves to next window to engage more SG targets. All the TO can do is move with them and at the same time, stay out of their way. For all intended purposes, the TO's do a great job. But there are those circumstances that even with good efforts, a TO can't see everything. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 11 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: DDD: I say this with some sarcasm. See What? Heck, there are numerous occasions where ya got 3 spotters actually watching and moving to positions to see targets adequately and they still manage to miss things. On a more realistic comment, we have props that a shooter grabs their SG, shoots 2 and moves to next window to engage more SG targets. All the TO can do is move with them and at the same time, stay out of their way. For all intended purposes, the TO's do a great job. But there are those circumstances that even with good efforts, a TO can't see everything. ..........Widder I'm not disagreeing that we have to live with some stage design limitations. That will always be the case. But perennial spotting or TO access problems ought to be addressed, wherever possible. Over two years, our club made a serious effort to work through our permanent props, and eliminate as many impediments to shooter, T. O., and spotter visibility and access as we could identify. We widened doorways and windows, lowered some windows to enable DB shotgun loading by shorter shooters, raised the top of some windows to accommodate taller folks, and installed some carefully placed added view ports and windows to give more Spotter visibility. All of that took quite a bit of effort, but now we have very few places where the T. O. is limited in doing his/her job, and our Spotters can see the targets with much less adjustment or motion. So it CAN be done. As a result, we have very few situations like the one in the OP, where calls become questioned, because actions could not be properly seen. Was it worth the effort? Yes. Did it materially change the appearance/mood of our old west town set? Slightly, but not noticeably. It took a lot of careful thought and effort, but the shooting is the most important thing we do as a club, and without reliable spotting and officiating (fairness), the shooting becomes less fun for everybody. So we made the effort to look carefully and clean stage sets up as much as possible. That was my basis for my original comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 What say yee Pale Wolf on this subject? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 SHB pg 24 (emphasis added) Quote ASSESSING PENALTIES AND PROTESTS During the course of fire, a shooter may on occasion incur penalties which need to be assessed. The immediate authority on the stage to that end is the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO), assisted by the input of the spotters. The scope of assessing penalties includes safety violations, procedural errors, appropriate completion of stage activities, illegal firearms and equipment, appropriate ammunition, appropriate dress, and other category specific requirements such as the adequate production of smoke in the blackpowder categories. The CRO/TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses). Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 ROI pg 48 Quote The TO verifies at least 2 of the 3 spotters agree on misses, and can consider input from the spotters regarding procedurals and/or safety violations- as well as any personal observations during the stage. Final assessment regarding the assessment of penalties is made by the TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk James Posted November 3, 2019 Author Share Posted November 3, 2019 If the TO does not see the procedural (for whatever reason) and two spotters say they did not see it, the question was if one spotter is enough to make the call. This is not about one particular incident even though I cited the TO could not see out the window. My reason for questioning this was that I was under the understanding that 2 of the 3 spotters would need to verify the call if the TO did not see it. I could not find that in the shooters handbook. I now understand the TO needs to make the final assessment based on the evidence from the spotters if the TO does not see it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 If the TO misses the string that caused the call it’s still his responsibility to determine whether or not a P is appropriate. In that situation if I had even one spotter who expressed certainty that a P did not occur and could credibly describe what happened I would not support a P, and I would consider whether I needed a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Kirk James said: If the TO does not see the procedural (for whatever reason) and two spotters say they did not see it, the question was if one spotter is enough to make the call. This is not about one particular incident even though I cited the TO could not see out the window. My reason for questioning this was that I was under the understanding that 2 of the 3 spotters would need to verify the call if the TO did not see it. I could not find that in the shooters handbook. I now understand the TO needs to make the final assessment based on the evidence from the spotters if the TO does not see it. Thanks There are too many variables to make a judgement on what should be done. Did the 1 spotter have a particular visual advantage over the other two? Are the other two spotters inexperienced? Are the two spotter attentive? I have made procedural calls with only one spotter seeing the error. It just happened to be a "foot fault" where the shooter was not close enough to the designated position. Some calls are just plain out and out hard to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966 Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 7 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said: It just happened to be a "foot fault" where the shooter was not close enough to the designated position. As a TO, If my spotters call a P that I did not see for whatever reason, I have them explain what exactly they observed. Then make the call or not based on that input, a fair number of times it ends up a no call as it was a spotter with confusion as to a sweep, or round count. (most often happens on the first few shooters in a new stage as getting the new sequence into some folks brains take longer ) Then if time allows I use the possible call as a teaching tool, why is it or is it not a P. Like a shooter clearly aiming at the wrong target, but missing etc. As for a "foot fault" the clubs I shoot with regularly have changed the wording of positions from "behind" etc to AT which we define in the walk thru as able to reach the position to retrieve or put down a gun without moving, or "when targets are visible" you may engage. There are enough things to watch down range and on the upper part of a shooter, then add watching for a foot in the wrong place. Hard enough to watch a possibly closed action with a live round and feet, why add more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 On 11/1/2019 at 11:41 AM, Kirk James said: How many spotters need to see a procedural if the TO does not see it? TO could not see much through the window due to the size of the shooter. Just one. For me, as a TO, the spotter will need to articulate correctly and precisely their version of the supposed Procedure. I will question them several times. I also speak with the other spotters and confirm their version. I need to verify and confirm the call, as it is my duty and my responsibility to my posse and the shooter. In other words, the spotter must convince me. Either way I go, I walk over to the shooter, at the unloading table and confirm my decision. Be it right or wrong. Move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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