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Quizcat

What do you think of the Winchester 1892 Carbine .357/.38spl?

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Anything wrong with going with the Winchester 1892 Carbine in .357/.38spl?  I know there is also the Winchester 1873 series, and if I am not mistaken, it seems like most prefer them, but I really can't recall why they seem to prefer them for Cowboy Action Shooting.  The 1873's can run anywhere from $200 to $400+ more than the basic 1892 carbine model, and I have heard that some don't like the added safety features of today, versus several years ago, before the tang safeties, etc...were introduced. 

 

Also, of course there is the Marlin 1894C or 1894CB (Cowboy), but with all the quality problems at Remington, I've kind of sworn off of anything in lever action made by the Remington plant these days.

Edited by Quizcat

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Nothing wrong with it, but you really should get yourself to a match or two BEFORE you buy anything. 

 

1873's are considered by many, self included, to be the best for this game. They can be short stroked and lots of go fast parts are readily available. Can't short stroke a 92' and they tend to be very bullet length sensitive.

Edited by Tyrel Cody
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The made in Japan Winchester 92's have got that stupid safety on them along with the rebounding hammer.   For those 2 reasons, I would never buy one.  They may be very well made rifles, but I am too much of a "purist" to even consider them.   I freely admit that I may be dismissing something worthy, but that's just me.   I know what I like.  :)   

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Most shooters are quicker with a 73 than a 92. I do like the 92 because they were in so many TV shows and movies (period correct or not), but if you want to shoot quick, go with a 73.

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1 hour ago, Go West said:

Most shooters are quicker with a 73 than a 92. I do like the 92 because they were in so many TV shows and movies (period correct or not), but if you want to shoot quick, go with a 73.

 

Is it because the rebound hammer slows down follow-up shots?  There are numerous forums where the newer safety features are voluminously debated, and a large number of commentators don't find the safeties to be a detriment whatsoever, and some hate them, mostly because of common sense design reasons.  Cowboy Action Shooting is a different kind of activity than hunting, casual target shooting, etc...and I'm just trying to understand specifically how rebound hammers and tang/bolt safeties adversely effect competitiveness in Cowboy Action Shooting.  I'm assuming it must be a reduced speed issue.

Edited by Quizcat

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14 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Nothing wrong with it, but you really should get yourself to a match or two BEFORE you buy anything. 

 

Tyrel gave the best advice.  Come to a match.  Handle some of the guns that people actually use in this game.  You will learn more in one match than in years of online research.

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14 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

...you really should get yourself to a match or two BEFORE you buy anything.   

Yeah, I hear 'ya...but got 12 weeks of recovery from surgery before I'll be able to get out there.  The other thing is, I have some of these rifles in my retail firearms inventory already, and trying to decide which to select before I pull one from the shelf.  So, they're already bought, for all intents and purposes. 

Edited by Quizcat

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9 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

I'm just trying to understand specifically how rebound hammers and tang/bolt safeties adversely effect competitiveness in Cowboy Action Shooting.  I'm assuming it must be a reduced speed issue.

 

As far as I know, they do not have any effect on the competitiveness of the gun.  I just find them to be extremely ugly and annoying in the way they detract from a classic design that did not need any fixing.   For ME it is purely a matter of how it looks wrong and is not needed.  

 

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92 is way down my short list of SASS rifles.

Had a couple of them when I first started.

Was out running them by the 2nd match.

They can be tuned to run better. And a few can tune them to run pretty fast.

But most can't. And even those don't seem to run good enough to keep up with a

73, 66, or Marlin.

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In terms of Cowboy Action Shooting Winchester 92s are fine, as tomato stakes.   You will have to search far and long to find someone winning major matches with one.  Yeah, somebody may come behind me and post a video of a World Champ running one pretty fast, so if you're that good perhaps it doesn't matter.   For the rest of us it does.

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14 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Nothing wrong with it, but you really should get yourself to a match or two BEFORE you buy anything. 

 

1873's are considered by many, self included, to be the best for this game. They can be short stroked and lots of go fast parts are readily available. Can't short stroke a 92' and they tend to be very bullet length sensitive.

 

I started with and loved my '92. I developed a bad habit of short stroking it and causing it to jam or kick out live rounds. Got a '73, wife uses '92. we are both very happy. "92 was slicked up by Steve Young and I'd still be using it I could break that bad habit.

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1 minute ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

 

I started with and loved my '92. I developed a bad habit of short stroking it and causing it to jam or kick out live rounds. Got a '73, wife uses '92. we are both very happy. "92 was slicked up by Steve Young and I'd still be using it I could break that bad habit.

 

By short stroking I mean a short stroke kit can be added so the gun itself has a shorter stroke.

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

By short stroking I mean a short stroke kit can be added so the gun itself has a shorter stroke.

 

Yep, Guess I should have said " not fully working the level all the way forward."

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22 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

Yeah, I hear 'ya...but got 12 weeks of recovery from surgery before I'll be able to get out there.  The other thing is, I have some of these rifles in my retail firearms inventory already, and trying to decide which to select before I pull one from the shelf.  So, they're already bought, for all intents and purposes. 

 

Rebounding hammers and safeties don't slow the guns down.

 

Most people will never out run a tuned 92'. A stock 92' will get you started.

 

Good chance you'll have to figure out bullet OAL regardless of whether you choose a 92' or 73'

 

 

The toggle link rifles(60', 66', and 73') can be short stroked and there are tons of go fast parts on the market. A 92' can be slicked up but not short stroked.  The Marlin 94' can be short stroked but there are very few gunsmiths that know how and will do it. The newer Remington Marlins are reportedly OK.

 

 

 

If you think you'll shoot Classic Cowboy any time soon you'll have to start with a large caliber(> .40) 60', 66', or 73'; personally I'd pick a 73'

 

If you think you'll shoot B-Western anytime soon you'll need to start with a Marlin 94' or a 92'; personally I'd pick the Marlin.

 

{Opinion}

Every shooter should compete for at least a year in an appropriate age based category with a toggle link rifle(.357), double barrel shotgun, and .357 revolvers(Pietta or Ruger).  After a year they'll be experienced enough to upgrade guns(if needed) and move into other categories(i.e. Classic Cowboy, B-Western, Gunfighter, Steampunk, etc...).

{/Opinion}

 

Don't feel like you have to have all your gear to get started either, very like be plenty of folks that will let you borrow some stuff for a short while.

 

Best wishes for a complete and expedient recovery.

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Unless you want to shoot BP and then get a 44-40. You can always size down later :)

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You've gotten a lot of good input so far, so I'll just add one thing...

 

If you got a 73 in 45 Colt it would allow you to shoot in any category except B-Western, AND you could use it for Wild Bunch.

 

Just something else to think about.

 

Grizz

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I am one whom likes the '92.  No, I don't personally shoot one (anymore) but I did once and I worked on a ton of them.  A CAVEAT:  I have NOT worked on the Miroku built version.  The "other" '92s can be made to run extremely fast and smooth.  Properly set up, you can't outrun one.  You can screw up, but not outrun the rifle.  Out of the box, they are fine but very clunky.  Send it to Nate Kiowa Jones and you'll be AMAZED.

 

Out of the box, '73s are quite clunky too.  They need work.  When folks speak of after-market parts and speed parts, they are describing Uberti built '73s.  There is no real current availability of reliable speed parts for the Miroku guns.

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1 hour ago, Quizcat said:

Yeah, I hear 'ya...but got 12 weeks of recovery from surgery before I'll be able to get out there.  The other thing is, I have some of these rifles in my retail firearms inventory already, and trying to decide which to select before I pull one from the shelf.  So, they're already bought, for all intents and purposes. 

It sounds like you own a shop, so you have access to a lot of guns? What I would do in those 12 weeks, is play around with some. You don't have to shoot it to see which you like the best. Great shooters will shoot better with gear they are comfortable with. I would play with the 92, practice picking it up and shouldering it. Find out fast you can find a target. Rinse and repeat. If that feels good, run some snap caps or dummies through it doing the same and see how fast you can get through 10. If you have access to a Marlin and 73, do the same. That alone will help you decide what feels right to you. Folks on here talk about how the best have this gear or those weapons, but the best are like in any sport/game which are comprised of maybe 1 percent of the whole. For the rest of us, it's about shooting what you like and playing the game how you choose. And trust me on this, if you get an idea in your head that you want to play with a certain gun, it's really hard to get that idea out. Even if that gun becomes more trouble than it's worth, or so says my Walker, Dragoon, 2nd gen 1851 colts, Schofield, Original winchester 92 with a Big Loop lever, Original Winchester 73, original Greener 10 gauge.........

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35 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

I am one whom likes the '92.  No, I don't personally shoot one (anymore) but I did once and I worked on a ton of them.  A CAVEAT:  I have NOT worked on the Miroku built version.  The "other" '92s can be made to run extremely fast and smooth.  Properly set up, you can't outrun one.  You can screw up, but not outrun the rifle.  Out of the box, they are fine but very clunky.  Send it to Nate Kiowa Jones and you'll be AMAZED.

 

Out of the box, '73s are quite clunky too.  They need work.  When folks speak of after-market parts and speed parts, they are describing Uberti built '73s.  There is no real current availability of reliable speed parts for the Miroku guns.

Respectfully and not trying to start an argument, if your statement was accurate I think you would see a lot more people shooting 92s.  I shoot 5 matches a month and know of two people who were shooting 92s, one of whom has recently switched to a 73.  I also know of quite a few cowboys who do great work on 73s.  I know of one who does so with 92s and you just named him.

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14 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Respectfully and not trying to start an argument, if your statement was accurate I think you would see a lot more people shooting 92s.  I shoot 5 matches a month and know of two people who were shooting 92s, one of whom has recently switched to a 73.  I also know of quite a few cowboys who do great work on 73s.  I know of one who does so with 92s and you just named him.

Well, one of the biggest factors for newbies is going to be price, if nothing more than to see whether they're really going to get into it, not to mention which aspect of the hobby appeals to them, the costumes, socializing, the shooting, the competing, the winning, or whether one cares about not winning, etc...As I mentioned, the 73's, which would probably be my preference, are considerably more expensive than the '92's.  But, I can see that over time, it'll settle out to what you like best, and statistically most will probably end up with different guns, and probably more expensive ones, than what you started out with.  

Edited by Quizcat

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Well Capt. B,

I spent better-n-20 years building Competition CAS Rifles.  Without question, the '73 is bottom line faster than a '92.  The '73 properly set up is also easier for the "average" shooter to run fast.  A well set up '73 can make average shooters look good.  The '92 takes more deliberate concentration to run fast.  However, the '92, properly set up will run very fast and smooth.  I said that.  I also said, you can't outrun the gun, but you can screw up.  Real easy to screw up with a '92.  Doesn't make it slow.  If you get a minute, watch Deuce run one.

 

There are a lot more folks putting '73s together for competition than folks setting up the '92.  What does that have to do with the OPs question??  Yer point??  Not to start an argument .... of course :rolleyes:

 

PS:  At one time I was also setting up the '92 for CAS.  Then I retired.  Nate says he works on the '92 because the easy ones were taken.  Good point .... that  :P 

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker

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I love my '92 in 44WCF.  It's light, smooth, and dead reliable.  The only reason a '73 is marginally faster is because of the short stroke.  Same reason the Marlin's were faster in the early days.

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Looks like the OP's question has been answered. No need to go any further or debate the issue of '73 vs. '92.

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1 minute ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

Looks like the OP's question has been answered. No need to go any further or debate the issue of '73 vs. '92.

 

I reckon so, maybe we should move on to Rank Points vs Total time, or maybe Ginger vs MaryAnne, or any of the other ageless debates....

 

:D

 

Happy weekend all!

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Well Capt. B,

I spent better-n-20 years building Competition CAS Rifles.  Without question, the '73 is bottom line faster than a '92.  The '73 properly set up is also easier for the "average" shooter to run fast.  A well set up '73 can make average shooters look good.  The '92 takes more deliberate concentration to run fast.  However, the '92, properly set up will run very fast and smooth.  I said that.  I also said, you can't outrun the gun, but you can screw up.  Real easy to screw up with a '92.  Doesn't make it slow.  If you get a minute, watch Deuce run one.

 

There are a lot more folks putting '73s together for competition than folks setting up the '92.  What does that have to do with the OPs question??  Yer point??  Not to start an argument .... of course :rolleyes:

 

PS:  At one time I was also setting up the '92 for CAS.  Then I retired.  Nate says he works on the '92 because the easy ones were taken.  Good point .... that  :P 

I take your point.  In the hands of a top shooter a '92 is just fine.  For us mere mortals a '73 is easier to shoot fast.  Makes sense to me.  I don't need to see Deuce run one, I've seen him shoot, I'm sure he can shoot one very fast indeed.  Michael Jordan in his prime could probably dunk in bare feet with his legs tied together, I can't dunk at all, so what he can do really isn't meaningful to me other than being really cool to watch.  Having said that, Deuce himself has said when it matters he only shoots Miroku '73s, not '92s.


My point about people working on guns was, the OP asked what we think of a '92, so I gave him my opinion.  I didn't mention the price differential because it's pretty obvious, and to me it wasn't relevant.  I mentioned the fact that more folks are setting up '73s because one, that tends to indicate there's more of a demand for '73s and two, the ability to get parts and to get work done is a factor that I believe is worthy of consideration when buying a rifle for CAS.

 

The first rifle I bought for CAS was a '73, I still have it.  My original pistols and shotgun are long gone.  I would have been better off buying better (and more expensive) guns up front rather than buying, selling, then buying again. 

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5 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

Looks like the OP's question has been answered. No need to go any further or debate the issue of '73 vs. '92.

I think when a question like the OP's gets asked it's pretty naturally going to need a discussion of the pros and cons of the options to answer it appropriately.  Having said that, I think the debate regarding the '92 vs '73 was settled long ago.  People voted with their wallets.

 

PS...Any cowboy rifle is better than no cowboy rifle at all.  If all I had was a '92 I would be on my way to the match with it tomorrow.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

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10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

...

 

PS...Any cowboy rifle is better than no cowboy rifle at all.  If all I had was a '92 I would be on my way to the match with it tomorrow.

 

I reckon so.

 

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I shot a 92 for several years when I first started back in ‘95.  They are great guns.  If you can master the 92, you won’t have any trouble mastering a 73.  The lever stroke on a 92 is longer than that of a “short-stroked” 73.  In the hands of a really good shooter on a speed run it might make a difference of  one or two seconds for 10 shots.  
 

The 92 was an improvement over the 73 because it is a much stronger, more compact action, handling more powerful cartridges.  When CAS started and for the first 20 years or so (until the advent of short stroke kits for 73’s, the 92 Winchester/clones and the Marlin 94 were the go-to guns.  Back then the extra long stroke and clunky action made the 73 less desirable.

 

I think that a new shooter is much better served by starting with a (much) cheaper 92 and learning the game than spending (for me anyway) mega-bucks on  “‘73 race gun“.  There is always a market for nice 92’s, so you’re not going to loose money in the unlikely event you later want to sell.

 

I realize that many, if not most, will disagree with me, but even though I now shoot 73’s, the 92 is my favorite lever gun. 

 

 

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Less we forget about the 66? They are generally a little less than the 73's. Same basic action and you can short stroke 'em. I have one that I love!

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On 11/1/2019 at 10:54 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

In terms of Cowboy Action Shooting Winchester 92s are fine, as tomato stakes.   You will have to search far and long to find someone winning major matches with one.  Yeah, somebody may come behind me and post a video of a World Champ running one pretty fast, so if you're that good perhaps it doesn't matter.   For the rest of us it does.

The funny thing about the ignorant statement made by many is the fact most of us are NOT Fast enough to out run a 92.

Only the very very top shooter can.

The actual issue is the shooter gets out of time himself Not the rifle itself. 

People just like to repeat what they are told or read .

If you research for yourself you will find the truth . 

And as they say the Truth will set you free ! 

( too shoot a 92 ) lol 

When or if you can actually out run a 92 then you need to spend more money on faster slicker equipment. 

I will say  85% or more in this game cant  out run a 92.

Just Sayin. 

Rooster 

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I would go so far as to say that no one can outrun a 92.  I’ve never gotten a response as to exactly what is defined as “outrunning a 92”.  If you look at the way a 92 functions, exactly what function is being outrun.

 

I have seen a lot of people drop the hammer when the action was not yet closed and jack out a round.  This happens because the 92 has an internal mechanical safety mechanism that prevents the firing pin from striking the primer unless the lever is fully closed.  My opinion is that this is what is being called “outrunning the gun” when it is, in fact, operator error.

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8 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

The funny thing about the ignorant statement made by many is the fact most of us are NOT Fast enough to out run a 92.

Only the very very top shooter can.

The actual issue is the shooter gets out of time himself Not the rifle itself. 

People just like to repeat what they are told or read .

If you research for yourself you will find the truth . 

And as they say the Truth will set you free ! 

( too shoot a 92 ) lol 

When or if you can actually out run a 92 then you need to spend more money on faster slicker equipment. 

I will say  85% or more in this game cant  out run a 92.

Just Sayin. 

Rooster 

You’re certainly free to consider my statement ignorant and give it the google eyed response you did, doesn’t matter to me. You’re also entitled to your opinion, as am I. The OP asked for opinions and I gave mine, which is there are at least four types of rifles that are better suited for SASS than a 92. We’re entitled to our own opinions, but not to our own facts.

 

These are the facts.
 

Please note that the person with the most experience with 92’s on this thread, Colorado Coffinmaker, himself stated that they are harder to run than a ‘73. Proper feeding is an issue, they have a longer stroke, fewer go fast parts are available, far fewer people do Cowboy work on them, and if you’re fast you can probably shoot faster than the gun can be operated.

 

Please educate me and mention one aspect of the ‘92, other than cost, that is superior to a ‘73 and relevant to shooting one in a SASS match.

 

If you can name one overall winner in the last ten years who won a state or higher match with a ‘92.

 

If you don’t care about speed, I’m sure a ‘92 is adequate. If you want to win, or just enjoy ripping off 10 quick rounds out of your rifle, the ‘73 is clearly superior.

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19 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

You’re certainly free to consider my statement ignorant and give it the google eyed response you did, doesn’t matter to me. You’re also entitled to your opinion, as am I. The OP asked for opinions and I gave mine, which is there are at least four types of rifles that are better suited for SASS than a 92. We’re entitled to our own opinions, but not to our own facts.

 

These are the facts.
 

Please note that the person with the most experience with 92’s on this thread, Colorado Coffinmaker, himself stated that they are harder to run than a ‘73. Proper feeding is an issue, they have a longer stroke, fewer go fast parts are available, far fewer people do Cowboy work on them, and if you’re fast you can probably shoot faster than the gun can be operated.

 

Please educate me and mention one aspect of the ‘92, other than cost, that is superior to a ‘73 and relevant to shooting one in a SASS match.

 

If you can name one overall winner in the last ten years who won a state or higher match with a ‘92.

 

If you don’t care about speed, I’m sure a ‘92 is adequate. If you want to win, or just enjoy ripping off 10 quick rounds out of your rifle, the ‘73 is clearly superior.

I did not call you Ignorant and Yes  I did say that is a Ignorant statement  

And it is .  ( Tomato stake )

 

No doubt the 73 with its short stroke is a faster rifle .

But .

1. Only because of the short stroke .

2. To call it a Tomato stake is the Ignorant statement  

3. I would have to say Steve Youngs is the True 92 Man ,

And He can Make a 92 run faster then 85% of the shooters in the game can shoot .

4. Not Everyone Cares about speed ot the Top 5 spots at a match .

Some people are here to just shoot there guns with like minded people .

5. Not everyone Can afford to run out and drop 1000+ dollars on a 73 or a 66 to get in the game .

6. A guy can just about buy every gun he needs used to start playing from scratch with the price of a new tuned 73.

7. 85% of the people in the game will never be Top 15 Shooters who really need the Top tuned stuff to Go faster .

8. A lost of people think Marlins are Jamomatics but to say something is a Tomato stake is  completely miss information 

9. A Henry Big Boy can be used to shoot SASS if you dont try to run faster then 30sec stages

And I still would Not Tell someone its a Tomato stake The 92 is a much lighter rifle them them all .

I would tell them there are better choices  Nowadays .

10. I bet you cant out run a 92,

But you spent way more money buying a 73

Because someone just like you told you it was a tomato stake .  

And you took there word for Gospel with out finding out for yourself !   

 

PS. Not everyone has a disposable income to start playing a game with .

So it would  be better to say , 

You can setup faster guns or better guns then the 92 ,

For the game  nowadays !

 

I have a 1860 , 1966, 1873, 1892 x4   1894 X4  Marlin x4 

But I still Choose to run the fast handling, light, inexpensive 1892 to play the game with most of the time . 

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Guess I am not smart enough to run a 92.

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