inconsistant loads with TB powder

[Dutch Wheeler]

3 hours ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

 

I'm thinking of buying a powder cop... Or buying 45acp cylinders but that won't elevate the problem in my rifle...

 

 

If you are thinking about a Powder Cop Die, spend the few extra bucks and go with an RCBS Powder Lock-Out Die.  I, too, load on a Hornady LNL AP press, and would not even think about loading on a progressive press without one!

 

With a Powder Cop Die, you still have to visually keep an eye on it, a Lock-Out die will check and lock up if outside the set range.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Ripsaw said:

 

 

Well, there you go, recommendations for  three very different burn rate powders. 

 

 

I've loaded over 50,000 rounds of .38spl with 700x.  Never had any powder drop inconsistency with my SDB.  

 

When I tried TB, I had less consistent powder drops so I've avoided it except in certain applications. 

 

 

 

231 and Unique ain't that far apart.

BE is one heck of a faster burn rate for sure.......

700X is faster than BE. 

https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf

 

OLG

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Maybe the new bullets are smaller in diameter and you aren't getting enough back pressure. It IS the only thing you changed.

[Ripsaw]

14 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Maybe the new bullets are smaller in diameter and you aren't getting enough back pressure. It IS the only thing you changed.

 

That's an interesting observation. Had a friend receive a couple thousand bullets sized .355 (9mm) instead of .358. Marked wrong on the boxes. 

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Ripsaw said:

 

That's an interesting observation. Had a friend receive a couple thousand bullets sized .355 (9mm) instead of .358. Marked wrong on the boxes. 

 

I got a batch of 45-70's that were sized to 45 Colt one time Was easy to catch as when I went to set the bullet on the case it slid all the way in. Vendor made it right.

["Big Boston"]

17 hours ago, Fence Cutter said:

I am not asking this to change the direction of this post, maybe I'm about to learn something....

 

Trail Boss is a fast-burning powder  so why are you using a magnum primer?

 

I've used Trail Boss for probably eight years in 45 Colt and get along just fine with regular primers..........

 

Trail Boss is fast burning, but it is a bit funky to ignite with any consistency. My theory is that the flakes, or small Cheerios as my friend likes to call them, fly around like crazy when the primer goes off, and if they block some of the flame, it blocks the rest from igniting. I test with a chrono, 5 shots with the powder against the primer and 5 shots with the powder against the bullet.

 

Anything under about 70% loading density and just about any primer will fail to give you consistent velocities. 

 

I wouldn't abandon TB, not until you do some testing. In 38 Spl, a F100 or a Win SPM seem to be best, in a 44 Spl and 44 Mag, the Rem 2 1/2 seems to be the charm. Primers and loading density are influencing factors. 

 

In 38 LC, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl and 44 Mag, the starting load was not good. At or near max seemed to be the charm. 5.5 is the starting load for the 45 Colt and a 200 gr bullet, 6.5 is max. 

 

As was stated above, going to a smaller case is not a bad way to go. I went from 357 > 38 LC and 44 Mag to 44 Spl. To my way of thinking, 45 should work the same.  In 45 S&W and a 200, 5 gr is max. 

 

Just my $0.02 - BB

[Cat Brules]

Don’t dump the powder from the hopper back into its original container, either.  This will OF COURSE, exposes your fresh powder to possible contamination.  Dump “powder hopper” powder into a dedicated, marked and dated container, such as (of course) a clean, dry, empty powder can.

 

You already know this, I guess, but if not, consider the logic.

 

Cat Brules

[Hashknife Cowboy]

Make sure your primer is seated properly.  I have never had a  problem with TB.  I am curious about the use or need for magnum primers.  I use either Winchester or Federal standard large pistol primer.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

Trail Boss is fast burning, but it is a bit funky to ignite with any consistency. My theory is that the flakes, or small Cheerios as my friend likes to call them, fly around like crazy when the primer goes off, and if they block some of the flame, it blocks the rest from igniting. I test with a chrono, 5 shots with the powder against the primer and 5 shots with the powder against the bullet.

 

Anything under about 70% loading density and just about any primer will fail to give you consistent velocities. 

 

I wouldn't abandon TB, not until you do some testing. In 38 Spl, a F100 or a Win SPM seem to be best, in a 44 Spl and 44 Mag, the Rem 2 1/2 seems to be the charm. Primers and loading density are influencing factors. 

 

In 38 LC, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl and 44 Mag, the starting load was not good. At or near max seemed to be the charm. 5.5 is the starting load for the 45 Colt and a 200 gr bullet, 6.5 is max. 

 

As was stated above, going to a smaller case is not a bad way to go. I went from 357 > 38 LC and 44 Mag to 44 Spl. To my way of thinking, 45 should work the same.  In 45 S&W and a 200, 5 gr is max. 

 

Just my $0.02 - BB

TB is way 'slower' than BE or 700X.

OLG

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

Trail Boss is fast burning, but it is a bit funky to ignite with any consistency. My theory is that the flakes, or small Cheerios as my friend likes to call them, fly around like crazy when the primer goes off, and if they block some of the flame, it blocks the rest from igniting. I test with a chrono, 5 shots with the powder against the primer and 5 shots with the powder against the bullet.

 

Anything under about 70% loading density and just about any primer will fail to give you consistent velocities. 

 

I wouldn't abandon TB, not until you do some testing. In 38 Spl, a F100 or a Win SPM seem to be best, in a 44 Spl and 44 Mag, the Rem 2 1/2 seems to be the charm. Primers and loading density are influencing factors. 

 

In 38 LC, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl and 44 Mag, the starting load was not good. At or near max seemed to be the charm. 5.5 is the starting load for the 45 Colt and a 200 gr bullet, 6.5 is max. 

 

As was stated above, going to a smaller case is not a bad way to go. I went from 357 > 38 LC and 44 Mag to 44 Spl. To my way of thinking, 45 should work the same.  In 45 S&W and a 200, 5 gr is max. 

 

Just my $0.02 - BB

 

70% loading density is the absolute minimum as published by Hodgdon

[Cat Brules]

1 hour ago, Hashknife Cowboy said:

Make sure your primer is seated properly.  I have never had a  problem with TB.  I am curious about the use or need for magnum primers.  I use either Winchester or Federal standard large pistol primer.

 

 

 There is a recent topic here on the Wire regarding “regular“ and magnum primers, including a discussion of a past analysis of popular primer brands.  Federal primers

were found to be the softest and easiest to detonate and that, in magnum primers, the shock-sensitive chemical primer cup material is different, and provides a brighter, hotter flash.  

 

 Perhaps you can scroll down and find that earlier topic from several days ago and perhaps you will consider using magnum primers.

 

Cat Brules

 

 

[Hashknife Cowboy]

Thank you I will......

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I've heard people say that, but really, why would a Magnum load need a hotter flash? The powder is sometimes the same, just more of it. I always figured, maybe wrongly, the the primer cup was just stiffer to eliminate primer flow.  I'm sure someone here is in the industry and actually knows.

[G W Wade]

11 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I've heard people say that, but really, why would a Magnum load need a hotter flash? The powder is sometimes the same, just more of it. I always figured, maybe wrongly, the the primer cup was just stiffer to eliminate primer flow.  I'm sure someone here is in the industry and actually knows.

Hope I havn;t lost the flow of the post, but Magnum loads are usually associated with slower burning powder which require hotter flash .     GW

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I've heard people say that, but really, why would a Magnum load need a hotter flash? The powder is sometimes the same, just more of it. I always figured, maybe wrongly, the the primer cup was just stiffer to eliminate primer flow.  I'm sure someone here is in the industry and actually knows.

Mag primers have a more intense flash than std does.

Powders like H-110/WW296 respond well to mag primers.

Same for some 'lite' loads in cold weather.

OLG

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

5 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Mag primers have a more intense flash than std does.

Powders like H-110/WW296 respond well to mag primers.

Same for some 'lite' loads in cold weather.

OLG

I like them myself. I use them with BP loads.

Rex 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just now, Rex M Rugers #6621 said:

I like them myself. I use them with BP loads.

Rex 

 

I have in SASS, BP loads.

Won't in my BPCR match ammo........

OLG

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Why in SASS loads but not in BPCR? Obviously they don't need mag primers with BP.

[Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310]

Anyone that doesn’t want their trail boss, feel free to send it to me!

[Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310]

Just now, Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310 said:

Anyone that doesn’t want their trail boss feel free to send it to me!

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Why in SASS loads but not in BPCR? Obviously they don't need mag primers with BP.

The target says to stay with CCI br2 for BPCR loads.

OLG

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Up the Powder Charge above the 5.5 grains !!!!

Heck I use 5 grains in .38 spl....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

20 hours ago, Cat Brules said:

Don’t dump the powder from the hopper back into its original container, either.  This will OF COURSE, exposes your fresh powder to possible contamination.  Dump “powder hopper” powder into a dedicated, marked and dated container, such as (of course) a clean, dry, empty powder can.

 

You already know this, I guess, but if not, consider the logic.

 

Cat Brules

I have to ask, contaminated with what?

[Cat Brules]

Contaminated with:

Moisture......water.......H2O......dampness

 

ALSO......Oxygen....aka, “oxydation”.....aka, it was too “old”  

 

 Kind’a like me, I reckon.  I got too much water in me and not enough whiskey, and I’ve been out in the air too long!   Day-Yum!!   >:-(

 

ALSO.....there might be some debris in there that you have no idea HOW it got in there.

 

You are testing now, so using fresh powder ain’t such a bad idea.  CLEAN and inspect both the hopper and the old powder.

 

Cat Brules

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Ohhhhh......

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

1 hour ago, Cat Brules said:

Contaminated with:

Moisture......water.......H2O......dampness

 

ALSO......Oxygen....aka, “oxydation”.....aka, it was too “old”  

 

 Kind’a like me, I reckon.  I got too much water in me and not enough whiskey, and I’ve been out in the air too long!   Day-Yum!!   >:-(

 

ALSO.....there might be some debris in there that you have no idea HOW it got in there.

 

You are testing now, so using fresh powder ain’t such a bad idea.  CLEAN and inspect both the hopper and the old powder.

 

Cat Brules

I have lived in dry climates most of my life , but haven't had this happen in about 50 years of handloading. Not saying it won't , just hasn't happened to me ,..... yet.

Rex 

[Dubious Don #56333]

On 10/28/2019 at 4:27 AM, Boomstick Bruce said:

Thanks for all the replies!!!

 

Ok, to answer a few questions. 

 

I use a Hornet AP press with the Hornady powder drop.

 

I buy primers by the 1000, bullets by the 1000, prefer by the jug and load 500 at a time. Sometimes.

 

I also load 45acp, 5.0 gn tb and use the same bullet and same primers but a taper crimp instead of roll crimp. Very consistent and have never had a "pop". This problem is only with the 45colt.

 

I don't know what funnel is in my powder drop. I bought it used about 3 years ago and it just started with this problem this year. I can post a picture if that would help.

 

I have measured my drops and calibrated my digital scale.

 

I'm thinking of buying a powder cop... Or buying 45acp cylinders but that won't elevate the problem in my rifle...

 

I do leave my powder in the drop with the lid on it when I'm done loading and refill it as needed... But I've always done this... Like I said, the only thing I've changed is my bullets, I like routine and consistency...

 

 

 

 

Hokay. If the problems started after you changed bullets, and everything else component-wise is the same its either an equipment problem or those bullets. Powder measure or crimp would be my first guess. See below.

 

Trailboss is a bulky fast burning powder. From my own testing I know it is not position sensitive, temperature sensitive and is one of the most consistent powders I use. It takes about .3 tenths of a grain to even change the average FPS a noticeable amount. Its dirty, but its good. Trailboss however, doesn't like light loads. Deviate from the book and you'll pay LOL. The IMR/Hodgdon website says 5.5 grains in 45LC is a starting load for a 200 grain bullet. Trailboss doesn't like lite loads. (did I repeat myself? Must be important LOL) Go below the minimum and you'll get poofs. Its a pressure thing. If the crimp is too loose ( an undersize bullet would have the effect of doing that if the neck sizing/crimp remains the same OR....if one or both of those things is out of whack. Its a pressure thing.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Dubious Don #56333 said:

Hokay. If the problems started after you changed bullets, and everything else component-wise is the same its either an equipment problem or those bullets. Powder measure or crimp would be my first guess. See below.

 

Trailboss is a bulky fast burning powder. From my own testing I know it is not position sensitive, temperature sensitive and is one of the most consistent powders I use. It takes about .3 tenths of a grain to even change the average FPS a noticeable amount. Its dirty, but its good. Trailboss however, doesn't like light loads. Deviate from the book and you'll pay LOL. The IMR/Hodgdon website says 5.5 grains in 45LC is a starting load for a 200 grain bullet. Trailboss doesn't like lite loads. (did I repeat myself? Must be important LOL) Go below the minimum and you'll get poofs. Its a pressure thing. If the crimp is too loose ( an undersize bullet would have the effect of doing that if the neck sizing/crimp remains the same OR....if one or both of those things is out of whack. Its a pressure thing.

What Don said, except I haven't found it dirty at mid-range loads. 

 

 

[Dubious Don #56333]

Unique as I remember, was dirtier LOL. Been a while since I used it. By calling TB dirty I could have been clearer. Its dirtier than Bullseye. Then again, most everything else is LOL.

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Dubious Don #56333 said:

Hokay. If the problems started after you changed bullets, and everything else component-wise is the same its either an equipment problem or those bullets. Powder measure or crimp would be my first guess. See below.

 

Trailboss is a bulky fast burning powder. From my own testing I know it is not position sensitive, temperature sensitive and is one of the most consistent powders I use. It takes about .3 tenths of a grain to even change the average FPS a noticeable amount. Its dirty, but its good. Trailboss however, doesn't like light loads. Deviate from the book and you'll pay LOL. The IMR/Hodgdon website says 5.5 grains in 45LC is a starting load for a 200 grain bullet. Trailboss doesn't like lite loads. (did I repeat myself? Must be important LOL) Go below the minimum and you'll get poofs. Its a pressure thing. If the crimp is too loose ( an undersize bullet would have the effect of doing that if the neck sizing/crimp remains the same OR....if one or both of those things is out of whack. Its a pressure thing.

 

DD make me remember something.

 

First compare the profile of the bullets you were using to the new bullets. Are they exactly the same? Same over all lenght, Same profile. If there is even the slightest difference and I am betting there is; this difference is why you are now having problems.

 

I did a little research and 5.5 grains of TB is right at the minimum for 45 colt and 200 grain RNFP. Depending on the bullet profile and seated depth it could even be slightly under. Because TB is exceptionally sensitive to too little load density, you need to do the following to ensure your load density is greater than 70%.

 

To ensure your using enough TB to meet the manufactures minimum load density of 70% do the following.

 

Fill the case with trail boss till it is just touching the base of the bullet. You can calculate this point by taking a loaded round and measuring how much of the bullet is sticking out of the case when it is seated where YOU are seating it with your current setup . Now subtract this value from the total length of the bullet. This value is how far below the case mouth the powder should be. Add powder until the case is level full to this point.  Now weigh the powder. This is your maximum charge. Multiply this weight by .70 and this is your absolute minimum charge. To cover any under weight charges that invaribly happen with progressive presses, add two tenths of a grain to the minimum weight you just calculated. This is your minimum charge to ensure consistent ignition.

 

Load ten round at this calculated weight and see how they do. If you are still having inconsistencies increase the charge weight another tenth of a grain and try again.

 

BTW too much powder in the case such that it is compressed when the bullet is seated is almost as bad.

[Sedalia Dave]

Follow up by comparing the pictures of the two bullets.

 

Stateline 200 grain RNFP 45s are bevel base

Missouri #4 200 grain RNFP 45s look like they are flat base

 

Bet if you check them they are a slightly different OAL with the Stateline bullets being slightly longer.

[Juan Solo]

Even with magnum primers you've found light trailboss erratic? I'm about .7 of a grain lower than the minimum with 200gr at the crimp and consistent as can be. Dirty for sure, but no consistency issues. I do use magnum primers and a firm roll crimp though so maybe I'm just lucky.

[bgavin]

On 10/28/2019 at 3:21 AM, evil dogooder said:

Have you checked for static buildup while running your press?   We have run tb for the last seven years this is the first year for some reason we started to get issues with static.  

This sounds like a good grounding wire would be beneficial.
Those loading in low humidity (winter heating) very well could be having static issues.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Change to a hard roll crimp.  Should not be able to rotate slug in loaded rounds by hand.

 

Clean powder measure thoroughly.  Finish with a wipe down with dryer sheet on internals.

 

Then raise powder charge until consistent performance.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Roscoe Regulator]

There are references to "dirty", when what may be happening is that there is rarely enough pressure to form a 45 Colt case to the chamber. What does it hurt, if not in your face? By comparison, my 5.5" ported Redhawk 45 Colt is a different story shooting "Ruger-only" loads. Then my ejector may require a serious bump to dislodge the cases, which are still not shiny or clean at all but not the black we see in a cowboy load. That lately was with H110 and a 300 gr XTP using Hornady data. Wow!