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irish ike, SASS #43615

WTC loaded and shot too many Rounds

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Stage calls for 9 pistol and 9 rifle. Shooter comes up and shoots 10 pistol and then 10 rifle. Read and re-read the shooters handbook. It covers leaving live rounds and empties on the carrier or in the pistol.

Could this be "Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures", which is a stage DQ or

a procedural for firing too many rounds?

 

And we did cover shooting less than 10 rounds in a previous post, which is OK.

Ike

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That would be a P for not following stage instructions.

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Loading 9 rounds in the pistols is not a P trap. 

 

It it requires attention to detail at the loading table. 

 

I think it is a P for not following stage instructions. 

 

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Another point of clarification regarding overloading a REVOLVER in the OP scenario:

If a shooter loaded 5 + 5 for a 9-round revolver string, but only fired the required 9 rounds, there would be NO PENALTY for the extra round in a revolver.

(as long as the hammer is down on a fired case).

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Another point of clarification regarding overloading a REVOLVER in the OP scenario:

If a shooter loaded 5 + 5 for a 9-round revolver string, but only fired the required 9 rounds, there would be NO PENALTY for the extra round in a revolver.

(as long as the hammer is down on a fired case).

 

 

Howdy PWB..I get the pistol but have always wondered why  the rifle carries an appropriate  penalty [ depending on where the round or empty case is located ]...of course I'm saying after the rifle leaves the shooters hands. !

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2 hours ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

9 shots from the six shooters sounds like a "P" trap....just myown thoughts that nobody asked for.

Poor stage writing. Absolutely no reason to do this. 

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24 minutes ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

Howdy PWB..I get the pistol but have always wondered why  the rifle carries an appropriate  penalty [ depending on where the round or empty case is located ]...of course I'm saying after the rifle leaves the shooters hands. !

 

Since SASS rules require long guns to be cleared (used to require "action open" as well) the only way to enforce compliance is to attach a penalty for failure to do so.

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9 rounds in a pistol is not a P trap.  We do it and there is no increase in P's unless theres some other sequence aspect that shooters don't get. We're getting tired of 10-10-4.

Ike

 

And thanks PaleWolf

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The loading table officer should have noticed this.

 

Duffield

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

9 rounds in a pistol is not a P trap.  We do it and there is no increase in P's unless theres some other sequence aspect that shooters don't get. We're getting tired of 10-10-4.

Ike

 

And thanks PaleWolf

So What's wrong with 5-10-8 ? Or 11-8-4 load 1 pistol on the clock?

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Showing anyone at the LT that a revolver hammer is down on an empty chamber wouldn't necessarily indicate how many rounds were loaded. 

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Quote

 

32 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

We're getting tired of 10-10-4.

I think many of us are. 

Creativity is a usually good thing, and variety is  the spice of life. 

But both need to be seasoned with some reason.  

 

Nobody likes to run the timer and agonize, watching shooter after shooter get disappointed with "P"s and excessive misses on "creative" stages.   Somewhere in between is the right formula.  We keep looking for it.  If the variety stays reasonable, it will be fun.  If not, then most will be too fatigued or penalized to be able to enjoy it.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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4 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Poor stage writing. Absolutely no reason to do this. 

There's a reason.

It's poor stage writing; somehow attempting to apply a band-aid to itself by masquerading as creative.

 

10-10-4 is boring...

Only if the stage writer is boring.

 

9-9-5 is exciting and creative...

Only if the stage writer is exciting and creative.

 

Matches are a stew...

Consisting of target placement, target sizing, sequences, movements, props, lines, transitions and gun orders.

 

If all the above are well done - then there is zero requirement to adjust round counts to be creative.

 

If the above are done poorly; all the changes in round counts will accomplish nothing.

 

I submit any stage writer presenting round counts variation as being creative stage writing needs to actually experience some creative stage writing.

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Creeker, couldn't have said it better myself. If you need to vary round counts to be creative, you need to go back the drawing board. Not to say that varying the round count once in a while is a bad thing, but you don't need it to be creative.

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you want to know WHY there is a penalty for overloading?  because before it was officially a penalty a few shooters were overloading the rifle because they had a habit of kicking out rounds and thought it was faster to load too many and if they didn't need it to just rack it out after the string...

 

now, it isn't a penalty if you over load but don't use it and rack it out when you're done,, just don't use it

 

at least that's how I remember it going down when the ROC acted on it...

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9 hours ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

The loading table officer should have noticed this.

 

Duffield

What loading table officer? It seems like half or more of the matches, big and small, don't have one.

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13 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

What loading table officer? It seems like half or more of the matches, big and small, don't have one.

They SHOULD have one.  

I have heard every argument under the sun for not having LTOs, including "The matches out West don't have them."

Loading Table Officers were instituted to prevent just the scenario that started this thread.  Keeping them seems to be a loosing battle.

It seems that many people do not like someone else counting their rounds, or do not want to wait until the LTO can observe them loading.

Personally, when I get so important that I resent someone helping me be safe it will be time to sell my guns and sit on the porch.

 

Duffield

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8 minutes ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

They SHOULD have one.  

I have heard every argument under the sun for not having LTOs, including "The matches out West don't have them."

Loading Table Officers were instituted to prevent just the scenario that started this thread.  Keeping them seems to be a loosing battle.

It seems that many people do not like someone else counting their rounds, or do not want to wait until the LTO can observe them loading.

Personally, when I get so important that I resent someone helping me be safe it will be time to sell my guns and sit on the porch.

 

Duffield

LTO job is not to count rounds. If you cant count, you probably shouldn't be shooting.

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11 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

LTO job is not to count rounds. If you cant count, you probably shouldn't be shooting.

-

Quote

Loading Table Officer – is responsible for visually checking to ensure all firearms are loaded with only the correct number of rounds, verify no round is ever under the firing pin of any firearm, and all loaded firearms’ hammers are fully down on an empty chamber. 

SHB p.22

 

REF also: Loading and Unloading Area Conventions 

SHB pp. 28-29

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

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44 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

you want to know WHY there is a penalty for overloading?  because before it was officially a penalty a few shooters were overloading the rifle because they had a habit of kicking out rounds and thought it was faster to load too many and if they didn't need it to just rack it out after the string...

 

now, it isn't a penalty if you over load but don't use it and rack it out when you're done,, just don't use it

 

at least that's how I remember it going down when the ROC acted on it...

This rule was put into effect back when people were shooting Marlins and 92's. Targets were further out and we had few multiple hit targets. I don't recall alot of rounds being kicked out until huge targets were moved really close and shooters started running rifles afap. I earned a "P" at EOT in 2000 or 2001 for loading and shooting too many rounds with a Marlin, while shooting BP. 

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1 minute ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

They SHOULD have one.  

I have heard every argument under the sun for not having LTOs, including "The matches out West don't have them."

Loading Table Officers were instituted to prevent just the scenario that started this thread.  Keeping them seems to be a loosing battle.

It seems that many people do not like someone else counting their rounds, or do not want to wait until the LTO can observe them loading.

Personally, when I get so important that I resent someone helping me be safe it will be time to sell my guns and sit on the porch.

 

Duffield

I agree that they should have one. It's hard to get much further out West than the clubs I shoot at, unless you go to Hawaii. They all require a LTO. That person can be either a full time dedicated LTO assigned the task, or it can NOW be a shooter in line that STOPS loading their own guns and becomes a dedicated LTO for the moment and actually watches the other shooter load. (this is my second choice, but better than nothing at all) Not doing so will get you a SDQ. That does not happen at the matches I shoot in some of the neighboring states, even the largest of them. It is given lip service, but I have NEVER seen it enforced. I just got back from a large match East of here. Not even one stage had a LTO on it. I held up my pistols to the shooter behind me at the Loading table and ask them to check them. This shooter was a top notch shooter... won category and placed high over all. The response was that "We don't do that here, or at any of the matches in (XX). As long as the LTO requirement is not enforced at the Premier matches, it's use will continue to decline. The rules have been watered down to allow for not assigning a LTO, but even the Watered down version is not enforced.   

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10 hours ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

The loading table officer should have noticed this.

 

Duffield

 

10 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Showing anyone at the LT that a revolver hammer is down on an empty chamber wouldn't necessarily indicate how many rounds were loaded. 

 

34 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

-

SHB p.22

 

REF also: Loading and Unloading Area Conventions 

SHB pp. 28-29

 

 

  If the shooter loads 11 in his rifle, the LTO doesn't get the penalty, the shooter does. Shooter is ultimately responsible for counting the rounds going into his firearm.

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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

 

  If the shooter loads 11 in his rifle, the LTO doesn't get the penalty, the shooter does. Shooter is ultimately responsible for counting the rounds going into his firearm.

What penalty does the shooter get for loading too many rounds?

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13 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

What penalty does the shooter get for loading too many rounds?

Stated above is a p for rifle. No call for revolver. Do they get a miss for the unfired round as well on each or just rifle or none of them?

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10-10-4 does get old but it ain't terrible. It just does not allow for much creativity or "expansion of the mind" to quote Everett Hitch.

 

Anytime we do try something different however, some people will step up and complain. Try a 10-10-6 and just listen to the groans from the posse. Myself, I'd LOVE a 10-10-10 but I'm probably  pretty close to alone there.

 

A 10-10-2 goes by too fast.

 

The rifle reloads seem to be a functional answer to doing something a bit out of the ordinary that most people do AND it serves as a reminder that sooner or later all of us will jack a live round out and need to reload on the clock so it ain't that long of a stretch of the imagination in doing so.

 

There probably is no solution to keeping everyone happy and the instructed short loading of the rifle or the pistol should not be an issue IF people simply pay attention. Not paying attention to stage instructions will always earn a shooter a P.

 

Blaming the LTO for YOUR mistake is a no-go. Shooter is responsible for their own actions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dantankerous
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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

  If the shooter loads 11 in his rifle, the LTO doesn't get the penalty, the shooter does. Shooter is ultimately responsible for counting the rounds going into his firearm.

The section to which I referred states that.

(which is why it was mentioned, rather than posting the entire section of the SHB)

 

50 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Stated above is a p for rifle. No call for revolver. Do they get a miss for the unfired round as well on each or just rifle or none of them?

 

There is NO PENALTY for overloading the rifle unless the extra round(s) is left in the firearm or fired during the stage engagement.

There is NO MISS penalty assigned to any extra rounds as long as the shooter fires the number of rounds required by the stage instructions.

(unless the extra round is used to replace an ejected rifle round).

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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16 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Another point of clarification regarding overloading a REVOLVER in the OP scenario:

If a shooter loaded 5 + 5 for a 9-round revolver string, but only fired the required 9 rounds, there would be NO PENALTY for the extra round in a revolver.

(as long as the hammer is down on a fired case).

 

 

Ok here's where I get told I'm wrong because the authority has spoken on it and I'm the new guy.  When you get to the unloading table and still have an unfired round in a revolver that is a 5 second penalty.

SHB of 21, 5 second penalties:  Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ.

 

Argument to that point. Well look at the miss flow chart. Did the shooter hit all the correct targets etc etc. Yes, asess no misses. Did the shooter engage all targets etc etc. Yes, no further call. 

That flow chart is being followed by the spotters and t o correct? Now the misses and penalties are applied as the shooter is heading towards the ult. At the ult the ulto finds an unfired round in the revolver. Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses. Does not matter at that point how many the stage called for or how many  you did or did not fire you have an unfired round in a revolver.  

 

I guess my point is how did that need clarification? Did it just get clarified here or is there a link for it?

Edited by Turkey Flats Jack

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"Inadvertently left rounds" refers to a case in which a shooter only fires four of the five rounds on a stage where 5 rounds were required to be shot.

In that scenario, that round is a miss for the "unfired round" (which is consistent with the MFC)

It is a clarification regarding the fact that unfired rounds in a revolver do not also incur a MSV penalty for "rounds remaining".


Also referring to a shooter who has a misfire of some kind in a revolver; then loads another round in the empty chamber to complete the shooting string.

The shooter is not required to eject the unfired round before reloading in that case.

There is no penalty as the "round remaining" was left in the cylinder on purpose (not "inadvertently").

 

That would also apply if a shooter loaded an extra (10th) round for a 9-shot revolver sequence (as in the OP) and, instead of firing it (incurring a "P"), stopped firing once the sequence was completed. The shooter would not be required to eject that extra round "on the clock".

Again, left in the revolver unfired on purpose (not "inadvertently"); therefore no miss.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

 

There is NO PENALTY for overloading the rifle unless the extra round(s) is left in the firearm or fired during the stage engagement.

There is NO MISS penalty assigned to any extra rounds as long as the shooter fires the number of rounds required by the stage instructions.

(unless the extra round is used to replace an ejected rifle round).

 

 

Can you load 12 instead of 10 on a stage that calls for 10 rifle rounds as long as you jack them out at the end of the string? 

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OK so 10-10-4 isn't boring but.....when someone says we shot 9-9-4 people get their knickers in a knot! It's a P trap, it messes up the shooters flow or???? We just shot an annual match with a 9 round pistol stage. There wasn't an abnormal umber of P's. The shooters just have to think. Did a number of shooters try shooting a non existent 10th round, yes they did. Thats on them.

 

Stage writing is the key to fun, no P traps, and parity for all shooters.

 

As to LTO's we don't use them. When we determined that the LTO has no responsibility for anything other than slowing down the process we passed. It is the shooters responsibility to load correctly. No one else. It also slowed down the loading process when the stage first starts. 3 people show up and only one can load. Also we observed many a loading table hard asses that caused more conflict than benefit.

Ike

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20 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Can you load 12 instead of 10 on a stage that calls for 10 rifle rounds as long as you jack them out at the end of the string? 

Yes.

 

http://www.oowss.com/Overloading the rifle -- PWB.pdf

 

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21 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Can you load 12 instead of 10 on a stage that calls for 10 rifle rounds as long as you jack them out at the end of the string? 

 

Yes...but WHY would someone do THAT??
:wacko:

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So attempting to be a TO hard guy, loading 11 or 12 rounds to avoid having to load a round if one gets jacked out, couldn't that be considered as a "Spirit of the Game" penalty? Doing something to create a competitive advantage?

Ike

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