Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Hells Comin

Clean Shooters

Recommended Posts

Match directors/stage writers-is there a certain % of clean shooters that you're shooting for and why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like to see 10-20%, mainly beccause I know clean matches make folks feel good even if they are not fast shooters

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If MDs want clean shooters they should provide showers and laundry facilities at the range :D

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

Match directors/stage writers-is there a certain % of clean shooters that you're shooting for and why?

Absolutely.

I always wanted 100% clean.

But strived for 25-30% clean.

 

In my opinion; clean shooters are not only indicative of big close target placements - but well written stages with reasonable activities and clear instructions.

 

I cannot control a shooters trigger discipline or their eyesight or their concentration level...

But I can ensure that everything I do as a match director is designed to facilitate that shooter being allowed to perform to the best of their ability.

 

Match Directors that are...

Adversarial to the shooter.

Hoping to see the shooter fail or crash.

Not 100% committed to the shooters success.

 

Those match directors, in my opinion; have no business being a match director.

  • Like 17
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Bramble Mountain Buzzard said:

Well said Creeker

I second.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always try and write stages that are simple, fun, and not 'P' traps. If a shooter doesn't get clean match at our shoot it wasn't because of what I did.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most shoots are cleanable today. Shooters want to go fast and they screw up. I've noticed if the targets are really big and close there are more misses than if the shooters are forced to use those bumpy things on the end of the barrel. 

Yes, make things simple with no "P" traps. Some of these narcissistic sweeps are just silly because someone needs their ego stroked.

Keep it simple.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Howdy

 

When I used to downhill ski, a bazillion years ago, it was often said that if you didn't fall down a couple of times you were not skiing hard enough.

 

To which I always said 'Phooey'. I was not competing with anybody, I just wanted to have a good time.

 

I feel the same way about clean matches.

 

I really don't care how fast I shoot, although there is usually good natured ribbing if I don't complete a stage in under a minute.

 

My goal is to shoot a clean match. Peering through clouds of smoke sometimes makes that difficult, which is one reason I shoot so slow.

 

So I don't give a hoot about shooting fast, a clean match is always my goal.

 

Of course last Sunday I had a major train wreck on the last stage, but I had already missed two targets earlier (I sometimes forget that my New Model Number Threes shoot high.)

 

And yes, I hate P traps.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got one last local match on Saturday.   I haven't shot a clean match this year.  Missed by a shot or two several times.  As I plan to shoot Josey Wales this Saturday,  I don't see much chance of a clean match this year.

 

Last local match we had 8 shoot clean on an 17 member posse.  Doc Hurd wrote the stages. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Winter Range - Cowboy Main Match - Clean Shooters

2019 - 8.7%

2018 - 14.4%

2017 - 14.8%

2016 - 5%

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Winter Range - Cowboy Main Match - Clean Shooters

2019 - 8.7%

2018 - 14.4%

2017 - 14.8%

2016 - 5%

 

 

 

I had one miss.  Came in 2nd by 1.18 seconds. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Winter Range - Cowboy Main Match - Clean Shooters

2019 - 8.7%

2018 - 14.4%

2017 - 14.8%

2016 - 5%

 

 

2019 would have had more clean matches except for the dismal weather.

I think that affected a lot of people, including yours truly.

The stages seemed about the same difficulty as previous years. Good mix of close and far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I had one miss.  Came in 2nd by 1.18 seconds. :(

Well .. I'm glad to hear you are not constantly thinking about it and letting it bother you ...

lildoga.JPG.c1c867f2dcaabbc337f22501c209b049.JPG

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Being the slowest Gunfighter in the east, East Tennessee that is, I have to shoot clean to be competitive.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of the fun of this game is the mental challenge.  If all it was is hitting the targets from left to right, that would get boring real fast.  The most mentally challenging stages are the most fun to me.  If a mentally challenging stage is a P trap, then bring it on.  BTW, I'm a new shooter and haven't had a clean shoot yet.  Probably won't for a while.  But the mental part is teaching me to keep my cool on the line, think about what I'm doing (even though it probably doesn't look like it)  and don't rush.  Slow is smooth, smooth is fast... I gotta remember that.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All replies considered?  I agree with Grizzly Dave!

;-)

 

Cat Brules

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I cannot be competitive on time, all I have left is shooting clean, not melting down, and doing progressively better along the way or not embarrassing myself, trying to enjoy a chance to shoot this type of guns and with the nice folks.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When a hard fought goal is reached it is very rewarding.  Builds character. 

 

When standards are brought down to qualify the masses then no character building results, just another participation award.

Edited by Matthew Duncan
  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

When a hard fought goal is reached it is very rewarding.  Builds character. 

 

When standards are brought down to qualify the masses then no character building results, just another participation award.

Silly me; I thought we providing escapism - that we were in the entertainment business.

 

There is character building in cowboy.

And I brought my daughter into the game, in no small part for the growth benefits it provided.

Being treated as an adult.

Being part of a unit with responsibilities (posse duties).

Being treated with respect and treating others with respect.

Learning how to win with class - lose with dignity.

There are infinite opportunities for character building within cowboy shooting.

But that character growth comes from modifying behaviors - from respectful interaction - from adult socialization.

 

Shooting at (missing or hitting) pistol targets at 12 yards has zero to do with building character.

 

 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Mountain Man Gramps said:

Part of the fun of this game is the mental challenge.  If all it was is hitting the targets from left to right, that would get boring real fast.  The most mentally challenging stages are the most fun to me.  If a mentally challenging stage is a P trap, then bring it on.  BTW, I'm a new shooter and haven't had a clean shoot yet.  Probably won't for a while.  But the mental part is teaching me to keep my cool on the line, think about what I'm doing (even though it probably doesn't look like it)  and don't rush.  Slow is smooth, smooth is fast... I gotta remember that.

That attitude seems particularly applicable in routine practice matches.  Challenging practice is usually a good thing.  

I'm considering including a couple fairly complex sweeps, just for the fun/practice of shooting them, and making those two stages "No P" stages. 

All shooters would have to do is show a reasonable effort to shoot the stage correctly (or S. O.G.) and not miss any targets.   Has anybody ever done that successfully? Gamers would be an obvious downside, but in practice does that really matter? 

 

The two Sweeps are a 2132435465 sweep on six targets which are set alternating high - low, which looks simple enough until you consider the pistol transition (gunfighters get an obvious advantage), 

and the second sweep is a five target circle where the course of fire is shooter's choice, but no double taps and no two adjacent targets can be shot consecutively (like tightening lug nuts).  

Both seem fun, but with pistol transfer, they would be classed as difficult.   With "no P" designation, the gunfighter advantage is minimized.  

Thoughts? 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That attitude seems particularly applicable in routine practice matches.  Challenging practice is usually a good thing.  

I'm considering including a couple fairly complex sweeps, just for the fun/practice of shooting them, and making those two stages "No P" stages. 

All shooters would have to do is show a reasonable effort to shoot the stage correctly (or S. O.G.) and not miss any targets.   Has anybody ever done that successfully? Gamers would be an obvious downside, but in practice does that really matter? 

 

The two Sweeps are a 2132435465 sweep on six targets which are set alternating high - low, which looks simple enough until you consider the pistol transition (gunfighters get an obvious advantage), 

and the second sweep is a five target circle where the course of fire is shooter's choice, but no double taps and no two adjacent targets can be shot consecutively (like tightening lug nuts).  

Both seem fun, but with pistol transfer, they would be classed as difficult.   With "no P" designation, the gunfighter advantage is minimized.  

Thoughts? 

 

 

 

 

 

Let us know where you shoot. You'll know why we aren't there. Setting people up for failure is not what shooters like. Keep things simple. If given the choice of shooting complex scenarios vs. simple, people will typically choose simple.

CAS went from medium sized targets at medium distances to large targets in your face. The current trend locally is using those large targets at medium distances or a mix of both. 

Edited by Assassin
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Mountain Man Gramps said:

Part of the fun of this game is the mental challenge. 

 

I'm mentally challenged enough!   

 

One of our senior shooters brought his grandson to shoot.  He did fine.  But I overheard him ask. Grandpa, "Why do they have to make it so complicated?".  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That attitude seems particularly applicable in routine practice matches.  Challenging practice is usually a good thing.  

I'm considering including a couple fairly complex sweeps, just for the fun/practice of shooting them, and making those two stages "No P" stages. 

All shooters would have to do is show a reasonable effort to shoot the stage correctly (or S. O.G.) and not miss any targets.   Has anybody ever done that successfully? Gamers would be an obvious downside, but in practice does that really matter? 

 

The two Sweeps are a 2132435465 sweep on six targets which are set alternating high - low, which looks simple enough until you consider the pistol transition (gunfighters get an obvious advantage), 

and the second sweep is a five target circle where the course of fire is shooter's choice, but no double taps and no two adjacent targets can be shot consecutively (like tightening lug nuts).  

Both seem fun, but with pistol transfer, they would be classed as difficult.   With "no P" designation, the gunfighter advantage is minimized.  

Thoughts? 

 

 

 

 

 

My thoughts? Honestly? I would rather go fishing than shoot stages like that.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with 10-20%

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

My thoughts? Honestly? I would rather go fishing than shoot stages like that.

Fishing isn't bad either, especially for big Yellowfin over 250#.   Better than a complicated shooting stage any day! 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 11:05 AM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy

When I used to downhill ski, a bazillion years ago, it was often said that if you didn't fall down a couple of times you were not skiing hard enough.

To which I always said 'Phooey'. I was not competing with anybody, I just wanted to have a good time.

...

We'd have made good pards at skiing. :unsure: The resort I favored had free classes. As I almost always went alone, I'd take them. Someone in a class told me that he'd never seen anyone ski as slow as I did.  As a result, I could enjoy the scenery and rarely fell. Guess that coincides with my shooting. :lol:

7 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

I'm mentally challenged enough!   

One of our senior shooters brought his grandson to shoot.  He did fine.  But I overheard him ask. Grandpa, "Why do they have to make it so complicated?".  

Please don't take that as a criticism of the scenarios. All of the scenarios seem complicated at first. Once you get familiar with them, it is much less complicated.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having a clean shoot is way over rated!

 

unless I get one!!!:lol:

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Please don't take that as a criticism of the scenarios. All of the scenarios seem complicated at first. Once you get familiar with them, it is much less complicated.

Quite often, even a difficult scenario can be made "easier" with the way targets are placed and/or painted.  I've often read the booklet and had a completely different perception of what is actually set up on the range.  I will give all scenarios a fair chance.

 

Now, on to the topic of the percentage of clean shooters, we like to see about 20% clean at our state match.  Monthly matches may vary.  

As a shooter that consistently finishes around the middle of the pack, I like to finish, quite simply, feeling good about my performance - where that finish is is secondary.  I like to feel like I shot well, had a good time with friends, was a good posse pard, made some new friends, and enjoyed my "recreation" to the fullest.  I do not like to feel exhausted and brain dead - like someone that should not have a love of shooting and people.  For me it's kinda like paying for a movie.  I look at the previews, read reviews, hear rants and raves from friends.  I fork over the money, anticipating having spent it well.  If the movie sucks, I will walk away with all kinds of regrets.  It might be a while before I go to another movie.  Paying registration for a match, no matter the cost, and ending the day, feeling like I was defeated and felt embarrassed by my performance would be a deterrent.  Sure, everyone has a different skill set and a different set of goals.  As an MD, we need to also learn to build matches that are challenging AND entertaining for all skill levels, ages, and categories.  There is so much more to the picture.  I guess that in the end, CAS can be a challenge to not just shooters, but to match directors as well.  My bottom line is that I like to go home feeling good about the way I spent my day/weekend.  I quite often am the only shooter in my category.  I don't feel good because I won my category.  I feel good because I "won" my day/weekend.  

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2019 at 9:47 AM, Assassin said:

Let us know where you shoot. You'll know why we aren't there. Setting people up for failure is not what shooters like. Keep things simple. If given the choice of shooting complex scenarios vs. simple, people will typically choose simple.

CAS went from medium sized targets at medium distances to large targets in your face. The current trend locally is using those large targets at medium distances or a mix of both. 

Actually, based on the input here,  I changed the two practice stages to make them more friendly to our collective brain cells.   (But I'd personally still like to try shooting them sometime).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Black Hills Barb said:

Quite often, even a difficult scenario can be made "easier" with the way targets are placed and/or painted.  I've often read the booklet and had a completely different perception of what is actually set up on the range.  I will give all scenarios a fair chance.

 

Now, on to the topic of the percentage of clean shooters, we like to see about 20% clean at our state match.  Monthly matches may vary.  

As a shooter that consistently finishes around the middle of the pack, I like to finish, quite simply, feeling good about my performance - where that finish is is secondary.  I like to feel like I shot well, had a good time with friends, was a good posse pard, made some new friends, and enjoyed my "recreation" to the fullest.  I do not like to feel exhausted and brain dead - like someone that should not have a love of shooting and people.  For me it's kinda like paying for a movie.  I look at the previews, read reviews, hear rants and raves from friends.  I fork over the money, anticipating having spent it well.  If the movie sucks, I will walk away with all kinds of regrets.  It might be a while before I go to another movie.  Paying registration for a match, no matter the cost, and ending the day, feeling like I was defeated and felt embarrassed by my performance would be a deterrent.  Sure, everyone has a different skill set and a different set of goals.  As an MD, we need to also learn to build matches that are challenging AND entertaining for all skill levels, ages, and categories.  There is so much more to the picture.  I guess that in the end, CAS can be a challenge to not just shooters, but to match directors as well.  My bottom line is that I like to go home feeling good about the way I spent my day/weekend.  I quite often am the only shooter in my category.  I don't feel good because I won my category.  I feel good because I "won" my day/weekend.  

To many, performing well is the reason for being here.  Others are here because they like being challenged and want the more difficult training to prepare for larger matches.   Because of that diversity, we will likely never be able to please everyone in any single match.   And having a mix of stage difficulties, even in monthly practice matches, doesn't really ease the situation very much, because the difficult stages still affect  final shooter rank standings, which will always be an important consideration to most of us.  

So I've gone to trying to write  stages that I think people will enjoy and not be too exhausted from shooting.  If a stage is mentally difficult, it needs to have something to make it fun and give shooters and spectators some laughs.   Creativity can extend beyond the invention of harder tests of skill.   Like you said, the real target is fun. 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hells Coming...... Good Question!

 

The Texican Rangers in Comfort TX just had thier last shoot of the 2019 season.

 

Results: 49 shooters, 22 clean matches.  45% clean match percentage.

 

You would think that it was like shooting fish in a barrel? 

 

There were 14 shooters that had a procedural!  30%

 

So, what was the match? Easy or a 'P' trap.

The match was 5 stages, 1 stage had 2 targets for the rifle and 2 targets for the revolver. 

2 stages had 3 targets for the rifle and 3 targets for the revolver.

2 stages had 4 targets for the rifle and 4 targets for the revolver.

 

I feel that it was a match where the shooter could choose 
how fast he wanted to shoot. Shoot conservative - easy to clean.

Put the petal to the metal - maybe clean, maybe a procedural or 

a miss or two or three!

 

No one complained about 'p' traps. Shooters were talking about 
how could they miss such an easy target, or why we're they shooting 
so fast and had a miss.

 

On monthly matches I look for 25% clean matches.

 

AD 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The old Navy/ Big Corporation rule is 100 "Attaboy (or girl)" is worth one "Aw S##t".  You could have 9 great stages and have one that is perceived as being unfair, and the word will get out that the match sucked.  If you have 2 bad stages, you've a problem because the match reputation has been damaged.  I always reviewed the match.  If there was a stage on my local matches that had more than 2 P's, it was retired forever and I would think through what made it that hard.

 

I look at everything I write as how does the 30 second per stage shooter think about it.  

 

Regardless of how hard or easy the stage is, the good shooters will be be fastest.  That's why they are good shooters.  Close, far, small, big, confusing, simple, they win because they work hard.  You can have plenty of variety without making it a memory contest.  For many of the shooters that go  for a clean match and then gets confused because of a complicated stage, what have you done?  The same people win, and the middle of the pack shooter is denied his/her clean match.  

 

I would encourage experienced shooters to try to remember what it was like when we first started.  Think about what it was like for a new gunfighter. 

 

Make sure we keep it fun.  I'll have fun no matter how the targets are set up.  I'll have more fun if it's not a memory exercise.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.