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Black RZR

Frontier cartridge loads

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I'm would like to try making up some frontier cartridge rounds for my 38's. I don't plan on shootin it alot so I was thinking triple 7 to keep guns cleaner. I can't find load data. 

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Someone got a good start load ? I got some HSM 158 rnfp lead with the red wax ring. Will that work for bullet?

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That bullet will work O.K. with Black MZ or other subs , not so well with real black powder. As far as loads , fill the case to where the base of the bullet will be when seated. With real black , add enough to get some compression , 1/8th inch or so. With subs compression is not so important.

Black powder kinda needs a compatible lube on the bullet , and more is better. Hence the development of the "Big Lube" bullets.

If you are just going to shoot Frontier once in a while , you will probably be happier with subs.

Good luck and good shooting , Rex :D

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Posted (edited)

Icc BlackMZ and any naked bullet (no lube required).  More than enough smoke to pass smoke test. 

 

If you have a Sportsmans Warehouse any where near,  they have BlackMZ at $9.95/lb. 

Edited by Warden Callaway
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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Icc BlackMZ and any naked bullet (no lube required).  More than enough smoke to pass smoke test. 

 

This or its brother APP if you are only gonna do it occasionally, you can use your regular old heathen powder boolits.  Black MZ and APP are gateway drugs to the Darkside.

Edited by Cholla Bob
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With Black MZ the Alliant tech guys told me NO lube works best as it makes its own lube. Coated bullets work very well with MZ.

kR

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Posted (edited)

Hodgdon says you can use ordinary powder measures for dispensing Triple Seven so go ahead.  They also say use the FFg granulation.  Test your firearms before using them in a match.  Sometimes the Triple Seven residue prevents the cylinders from turning.  Mine are gapped so they can run six stages without cleaning.  BTW, wash your brass soon after shooting with Triple Seven as they will develop a deep brown tarnish after a few days.

Edited by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971

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I use APP and Black MZ and I can say for a fact that if you don't put your brass in vinegar and water right after shooting by the next day they'll be corroded.  Also, if you're going to shoot BP or a sub make sure you keep a can of Ballistic with you.

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7 minutes ago, Tequila Chase said:

Also, if you're going to shoot BP or a sub make sure you keep a can of Ballistic with you.

 

I've shot black powder for over 50 years and BlackMZ for 4 or 5.  I didn't know any better and just cleaned my guns with hot water. 

 

I bought my first can of Ballistol on sale at MidwayUSA a couple of weeks ago. I put it on the shelf.  Better to have it and not need it. Than need it and not have it. :blink:

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5 hours ago, Black RZR said:

Someone got a good start load ? I got some HSM 158 rnfp lead with the red wax ring. Will that work for bullet?

Just fill the case up to about 1/8 from the top with enough room for the bullet to go in. Worked for me in .44-40 with real black, app and triple 7 is the same,

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I do have the poly coated bullets from badman. So they will work cool. Thanks everyone :D I'm not even a full year in SASS. But my goal eventually would be in the Dark Jedi order...:ph34r:

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22 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

I've shot black powder for over 50 years and BlackMZ for 4 or 5.  I didn't know any better and just cleaned my guns with hot water. 

 

I bought my first can of Ballistol on sale at MidwayUSA a couple of weeks ago. I put it on the shelf.  Better to have it and not need it. Than need it and not have it. :blink:

Ballistol is for lube and protect after cleaning with water flavor of choice;), mine is Murphy's mix. Also used by some for sticky cylinders between stages, If needed I use baby wipes, or a mix of Murphy's mix with a little Ballistol, used to be called Mule Snot. I have some mixed in an eye dropper and in little spray bottle. Good Luck:)

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Posted (edited)

I have never shot Black MZ, so I defer to others on that powder.  I shot a dab of old APP making the video that Warden Callaway posted (thanks for the plug, WC!!); not enough to form an opinion.  My Frontiersman experience has been with real black powder, mostly Schuetzen and it's twin, Graf's, Goex, KIK, and the substitutes Pyrodex, and 777.  

 

In my opinion, for cowboy action load amounts, the "extra power" in 777 is over-hyped.  I just returned from the Border Wars grudge match between Missouri and Arkansas in Mountain Home (great match, y'all should consider it) where I shot Frontiersman category, using Schuetzen in my ROAs, KIK in my shotshells (because I had a partial container and wanted to use it up), and a compressed load of 777 under a 125 grain lead bullet in .357 magnum brass cases.

 

OMG J-Bar!  You compressed 777!

 

Yes, I did.  I threw 1.3 cc of 2F 777 (about 20 grains) into a .357 case and seated the bullet to about 1/8" below the level of the powder.  No one commented on my loads.   They were not extra powerful, just made a nice boom and lots of smoke.   I could not tell the difference between these rounds and my usual .38 Specials charged with  1 cc of other powder.  There were no mushroom clouds flowing from my rifle barrel.  So, one can follow the same rule of thumb with 777 as with other black powders and substitutes: fill the case with enough powder so that the powder is slightly compressed (eliminating air space) when the bullet is seated.

 

I am not recommending anyone ignore the manufacturer's statements about 777 being 15% hotter than regular blackpowder.  But unless you are  throwing 150 grains of the stuff into a muzzleloading rifle, I don't think you will notice any difference from any other powder.  There is only so much chemical energy in 15 to 20 grains of any powder.  The difference is not perceptible by most folks, and certainly not dangerous in firearms made of modern steel.

 

So, if you want to use Black MZ or APP and can get a pound to try, that's cool.  But if 777 is more easily available in your area than those other powders there is no need to delay making smoke in the Frontier Cartridge category.  777 may be more expensive per pound on the shelf, but until you start ordering in case lots, it is not prohibitive and will allow you to find out whether or not you really want to be a soot lord.

 

(How could anyone not want to be a soot lord?? :blink::D)

Edited by J-BAR #18287
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I ran a side by side test of BlackMZ vs Grafs Reenactor powder in Smokewagons 44WCF.  30 rounds from each to emulate a 6 stage match count.

 

 

I then repeated the test with Goex FFg and Goex Cannon powder.  Those videos are on the Owl Creek Raiders YouTube channel also. But the results are nearly the same.  

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9 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

I have never shot Black MZ, so I defer to others on that powder.  I shot a dab of old APP making the video that Warden Callaway posted (thanks for the plug, WC!!); not enough to form an opinion.  My Frontiersman experience has been with real black powder, mostly Schuetzen and it's twin, Graf's, Goex, KIK, and the substitutes Pyrodex, and 777.  

 

In my opinion, for cowboy action load amounts, the "extra power" in 777 is over-hyped.  I just returned from the Border Wars grudge match between Missouri and Arkansas in Mountain Home (great match, y'all should consider it) where I shot Frontiersman category, using Schuetzen in my ROAs, KIK in my shotshells (because I had a partial container and wanted to use it up), and a compressed load of 777 under a 125 grain lead bullet in .357 magnum brass cases.

 

OMG J-Bar!  You compressed 777!

 

Yes, I did.  I threw 1.3 cc of 2F 777 (about 20 grains) into a .357 case and seated the bullet to about 1/8" below the level of the powder.  No one commented on my loads.   They were not extra powerful, just made a nice boom and lots of smoke.   I could not tell the difference between these rounds and my usual .38 Specials charged with  1 cc of other powder.  There were no mushroom clouds flowing from my rifle barrel.  So, one can follow the same rule of thumb with 777 as with other black powders and substitutes: fill the case with enough powder so that the powder is slightly compressed (eliminating air space) when the bullet is seated.

 

I am not recommending anyone ignore the manufacturer's statements about 777 being 15% hotter than regular blackpowder.  But unless you are  throwing 150 grains of the stuff into a muzzleloading rifle, I don't think you will notice any difference from any other powder.  There is only so much chemical energy in 15 to 20 grains of any powder.  The difference is not perceptible by most folks, and certainly not dangerous in firearms made of modern steel.

 

So, if you want to use Black MZ or APP and can get a pound to try, that's cool.  But if 777 is more easily available in your area than those other powders there is no need to delay making smoke in the Frontier Cartridge category.  777 may be more expensive per pound on the shelf, but until you start ordering in case lots, it is not prohibitive and will allow you to find out whether or not you really want to be a soot lord.

 

(How could anyone not want to be a soot lord?? :blink::D)

 

As usual J-Bar provides excellent advice. 

One bit of caution. 777 comes in two grades. 2F which the manufacturer states is suitable for muzzle loaders and cartridges alike and 3F which the manufacturer states is for muzzle loaders only. I bought about 10 lbs of 777 when Gander Mountain went out of business for a great price and it has plenty of boom in my 1860's. I have never shot 3F in cartridges so I don't know how it would behave.

 

I should also warn you that the Force is strong on the Dark Side and once you dabble in it a couple of matches you will have a big smile on your face and be well on your way to becoming a Soot Lord. ;)

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I have shot 20 plus pounds of 3F APP over the last few years in my rifle, pistols and shotgun. Makes more smoke than real BP but allows me to use the same powder coated bullets I use in the wife's smokeless loads.

 

Rifle and pistol loads are 38 special case, 125 gr LTC and enough APP to fill the case to the bottom of the bullet with little or no compression.

 

Shotgun load is:

Primer of choice

Federal Top Gun or Remington Gun Club hulls.

Claybuster CB0175-12 wad

35 grains by weight of 3F APP

About 7/8 oz of shot. (I have an adjustable charge bar and use it to adjust the shot charge to give me the best crimp.)

 

Other than the lack of flames I really like APP.

 

Started shooting Frontiersman this year with a pair of 1860 Piettas. I use 777 for monthly matches and real BP for big matches. With either powder I use the 25 grain spout and seat the ball firmly.

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I ended up with pyrodex P...I used my 125 poly coated rnfp. I used just enough powder for the bullet to compress a little. I shot ten through my open top. Nice smoke at first then I ran out of light. Lots of fire:D:D:D:D:D it was AWESOME!!! Yeah I'm good with the dark side. My alias is Black RZR afterall. (I had no intention of trying black powder when picked it) 

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15 minutes ago, Black RZR said:

I ended up with pyrodex P...I used my 125 poly coated rnfp. I used just enough powder for the bullet to compress a little. I shot ten through my open top. Nice smoke at first then I ran out of light. Lots of fire:D:D:D:D:D it was AWESOME!!! Yeah I'm good with the dark side. My alias is Black RZR afterall. (I had no intention of trying black powder when picked it) 

 

Go clean your revolver NOW!

 

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I kinda feel like it might be too much for my 38 brass frame. Is there a way to lighten up load without leaving a air gap?

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Use 2f real BP.

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Go clean your revolver NOW!

36 minutes ago, Black RZR said:

I just did. Yeah it's messy stuff

Now, go clean them AGAIN!  They'll need it!

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Posted (edited)

Pyrodex will corrode your pistol while you are shooting it.

 

Well maybe not that bad but bad enough that you have to clean it within a few hours of shooting or it will start to corrode. Pay triple attention to all the nooks and crannies as any Pyrodex left in those areas will cause corrosion. This means removing the grip frames and stripping your pistols. Something I only do 3 times a year when using real BP, APP, or Black Mz.

 

 

I shoot APP and real BP. Recently due to a cascade of unforeseen issues It was over 14 days before I could clean my firearms after a match. All I could do was give them a light coating of Ballistol.

Really worried when I got them out that they would have rusted. Careful inspection showed no rust it but it took a lot longer to get them clean. If I had been using pyrodex I would be likely be in the market for new guns.

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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8 hours ago, Black RZR said:

I kinda feel like it might be too much for my 38 brass frame. Is there a way to lighten up load without leaving a air gap?

Some use fillers on top of the powder charge.  Fillers use include powdered charcoal, foam backer rod and fine grained cereals.  The granulated fillers can mix with the black powder resulting in poor ignition.  Cereals can absorb moisture over time causing higher pressures when cartridges are fired. There is a smoke standard for black powder shooters.  If you reduce your black powder charges well below that which will meet the smoke standard you risk being penalized.  I don't recommend fillers in 38 Special cartridges.

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With 44 special  and 180g bullets I ended up using a 1/4” felt wad for a 410 as filler with 1.3cc of Black mz.   Worked well.   I figured a light bullet would be faster and adding more powder would make it faster yet, so I added the filler. 

 

Shotgun load was 7/8 shot, claybuster 3118-12a wad, 3.4 or 3.7cc black mz, Remington hull, rem or Winchester primer.  Really left a lot of plastic in the barrel vs smokeless, but easy to clean up.  

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Pyrodex is a RUSTING AGENT that just happens to burn.  I wouldn't use it for anything except FERTILIZER.

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2 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Pyrodex is a RUSTING AGENT that just happens to burn.  I wouldn't use it for anything except FERTILIZER.

 

I'm afraid that nasty mess would rot my fruits/vegetables, and would likely get me shot if when killed Missus Tyrel's flowers.

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I really like shooting BP , use some APP when I run out of BP-lubed bullets , but have said many times..... if Pyrodex was the only alternative , I would just stick to smokeless. I know there are folks that like it , some that use it because that is all they can get. I will pass.

Long live 2F.

Rex :D

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I use Goex 3F as FILLER in .38-40 , .44 Special and .45 Colt ,,,, just Filler-up till you get 1/8 to 3/16 of compression ....

Use a good Black Powder Lube like ,,,, SPG , Lyman Gold or DGL ....

My Open-Tops will start getting a little sticky after 8 stages on a hot dry day ,,,, a shot of ballistol and we can run for another 3 or 4 stages ....

I once shot 12 Stages in a Day ... Rifle in .38-40 and Hammered Shotgun needed No attention the Pistols needed one shot of Ballistol and a quick wipe on the cylinder Face ....

I use a Drop-Tube on my loads as I find it gives a Lower SD and is Much cleaner ( more complete Burn ) to shoot ,,,,, and allows more Powder to fit in ....

 

Jabez Cowboy 

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I have shot a ton of Pyrodex.  Yes you should clean the gun thoroughly.  Before shooting I put a thin film of grease on the parts that are exposed to the fouling. 99% of the fouling wipes off with a paper towel.

 

You are welcome to inspect my guns for rust.

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