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Load 45LC, but with a recoil level of 38Spl.?


Quizcat

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6 hours ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

If 45CS is loaded lighter than common data, most likely Lyman, given lead bullets, what rule would one use without ultimately relying on a squib rod? In using 45ACP data, we know we don't have to worry about enough power to run a 1911 slide, so where is the real floor, not some arbitrary chrono number, although a useful indicator of relative pressure? Maybe a list of minimum velocities for each common bullet weight and barrel length, assuming some leeway for other gun variables? It takes a leap of faith to just use a recommended load without any data to back it up. If there was a respected book on 45CS, I would buy it.

 

Here's another thought...  

If you can actually find loading data for .45 Auto Rim, you will find that it is loaded to lower specs that .45ACP.   Apparently, a steady diet of ACP ammo in the earliest Colt 1917's was wearing them out rather fast, so when the Auto Rim was developed, they downloaded it from the start.   It is my understanding the Smith and Wesson  1917's and later production Colts don't have this problem.   Better safe that sorry, I guess, was the thinking.

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Well H. K.

 

Going back to your previous, were we talking something other than a "Fantasy Game" maybe.  But .... For this "Game" there is no reason to limit one's self to 200Gr bullets.  No reason at all not to drop back to a 160Gr or MY preferred 130Gr Barnstormer.  Which results in a 45 atz a Pussy Cat to shoot and works extremely well as a large bore substitute for a 38.  Which is the reason AJ developed the Cowboy 45 Special case and the Barnstormer bullet in the first place.

 

Understanding of course, I shouldn't deliberately trek into the bush after Tiger with C45S loaded for CAS.

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I stopped by my FFL to cough up another $75 fee, another $40 background check, and another 10-day wait for my Vaquero Bisley 44.

While I was there, I browsed through some of the loading manuals they leave on the Dillon display counter.
The SPEER manual was VERY interesting:

Speed champions the 44 Russian brass specifically for low velocity cowboy loads.
This info is NOT on their web site.
They had quite a write-up and wide set of powders and loads for 200 grains in the printed book.
231, Trail Boss and other powders are listed for Min/Max loads.
Speer says to use 44SP brass pressures.

Starline #4400 Russian is the ticket, as it has the shortest trimmed length:

• 0.960" Russian
• 1.160" 44 Special
• 1.285" 44 Mag

[ edit ]
Speer removed ALL the 44 Russian load info from their latest #15 handloading manual.
Mine arrived this afternoon, and the data is gone.
I sent Speer an email requesting a PDF of the missing data.
If I can't get it, I will return the book to Midway for a refund.
 

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3 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Well H. K.

 

Going back to your previous, were we talking something other than a "Fantasy Game" maybe.  But .... For this "Game" there is no reason to limit one's self to 200Gr bullets.  No reason at all not to drop back to a 160Gr or MY preferred 130Gr Barnstormer.  Which results in a 45 atz a Pussy Cat to shoot and works extremely well as a large bore substitute for a 38.  Which is the reason AJ developed the Cowboy 45 Special case and the Barnstormer bullet in the first place.

 

Understanding of course, I shouldn't deliberately trek into the bush after Tiger with C45S loaded for CAS.

 

Right...  That was my point.   We were looking for ways to download .45 Special.  Since the case dimensions are a .45 ACP with a 45 Colt rim, it would follow that .45 Auto Rim data, which is the same case as the .45 ACP with a really thick rim, would be a good source of low power data.

 

I have an older Speer Manual from 1982 that lists, for example, a load using a 141 grain lead round ball, 3.5 grains of 231 with a muzzle velocity of 580 FPS.   That's the lowest in this book.   I was merely suggesting that perhaps other sources could be found that would give more data for low power loadings using the Special case, via using AR data, instead of ACP data.   Sorry if I was not clear on that.  

Me, for my own Auto Rims, or ACP ammo intended to go into moon clips for use in older revolvers, i do use the same 200 grain bullet I use in .
45  Colt.  This load will not cycle a 1911, but works very well in the old revolvers.

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I tried to read this entire thread, but got confused.

 

Anyone bring up the point that the same type and model of wheelgun is also going to weigh more in .38 / .357 than in .45?  More weight soaks up that recoil.

 

When my arthritis is acting up, I bring the .38s to shoot. 

 

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2 hours ago, bgavin said:

I stopped by my FFL to cough up another $75 fee, another $40 background check, and another 10-day wait for my Vaquero Bisley 44.

While I was there, I browsed through some of the loading manuals they leave on the Dillon display counter.
The SPEER manual was VERY interesting:

 

 

I have found that both the Speer and Sierra Bullets manuals, though expensive, are worth it. So much more info than the free pamphlets or internet sites.

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I found the SPEER #15 manual on sale at Midway for $27 with free shipping.
I picked up the manual and 200 of the Starline #4400 Russian brass.

Hodgdon has complete load data for 165,200,240 grain LRNFP in Russian 44 with several good powders.
All require very soft cast (pure lead) BHN, but the recoil numbers look like they would be a breeze for arthritic hands.

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the big difference in the early colt M1917s was that the chambers were not reamed to headspace the cartridge - continuation of the M1909 production , later colts and S&W production do headspace off the rim , 

 

this eliminated the need for the moon clips for the rimless ACPs , 

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I also found the Lyman #50 guide in PDF for $11.99
Just bought a copy and paid by PayPal.
Painless and instant transaction.
PDF is super high quality, a real SKU also.

This one has 44 Russian load data.

Lyman 50th in PDF
 

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On 10/3/2019 at 2:35 PM, Quizcat said:

Is it possible to reload 45LC rounds to closely mimmick the recoil levels of factory, low recoil 38 spl rounds?  If so, does anybody know some good reloading recipes to achieve this?  

Sure, I use 4.5 gr. of Tite group Badmans 160 gr. RN poly. bullet and it feels like my wife's 38 in her Rugers. I have to use both in True Grit and they feel almost the same.

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17 hours ago, Major General Shagnasty said:

Sure, I use 4.5 gr. of Tite group Badmans 160 gr. RN poly. bullet and it feels like my wife's 38 in her Rugers. I have to use both in True Grit and they feel almost the same.

I tried that load yesterday, and I swear my 38 Long Colt has more recoil, let alone 38 Special. Admittedly, the 38LC is full power 125gr. I bumped the 4.5 TG up to 4.9 and am ready for another range trip to test. I might prove to be a 180 or even 200 gr kinda cowboy. I prefer some recoil. Lyman's minimum for 160 and TG is 5.5 but over 900 fps. Since Lyman's minimum 160 gr load with W231 (6.4 gr) seemed very much like firing a 45 ACP, I cut it back to 6.1 and am ready to test it. That will probably be what I shoot for at least this winter (yes, we try to shoot in winter in SC), not wishing to get too far below published minimums or pound squibs from my barrels. After I compile a list of more loads from others and test them for what feels right to me I can get more comfortable with using informal data.

My context is that I have been pretty happy shooting full 45 Colt with published minimums of Trailboss and 255 gr bullets, but I need to stay on target better to improve my times without straying far from POA. Other than that, I like to reload a variety and thought 45CS would be interesting to try this winter. 

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15 hours ago, Roscoe Regulator said:


My context is that I have been pretty happy shooting full 45 Colt with published minimums of Trailboss and 255 gr bullets, but I need to stay on target better to improve my times without straying far from POA. Other than that, I like to reload a variety and thought 45CS would be interesting to try this winter. 

 

Sounds very reasonable.   If you can't find any specific data, try using the Trailboss "formula" for your CS loads.   The minimum will probably be a Very Light Load.   The max probably won't be much stouter.   Good luck.

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On 2/8/2020 at 12:35 AM, Major General Shagnasty said:

Sure, I use 4.5 gr. of Tite group Badmans 160 gr. RN poly. bullet and it feels like my wife's 38 in her Rugers. I have to use both in True Grit and they feel almost the same.

Do you mean to say that you are loading 45CS or 45 Colt? That 4.5 Titegroup and 160 bullet were too light for me in 45CS, so I have a small batch at 4.9 to test. I kinda think I will favor more recoil than some would prefer. I liked working with Titegroup since I could see it when placing a bullet. In the black powder derivative cases like 38 Special,  especially 357 magnum, and less so in the wider-mouthed 45 Colt I need a loftier powder that rises higher in the case. Titegroup recommends itself by being one with lower velocities. Clays appears to be the champ there, but I will wait until spring to shoot those.

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On 2/7/2020 at 2:55 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Well H. K.

 

Going back to your previous, were we talking something other than a "Fantasy Game" maybe.  But .... For this "Game" there is no reason to limit one's self to 200Gr bullets.  No reason at all not to drop back to a 160Gr or MY preferred 130Gr Barnstormer.  Which results in a 45 atz a Pussy Cat to shoot and works extremely well as a large bore substitute for a 38.  Which is the reason AJ developed the Cowboy 45 Special case and the Barnstormer bullet in the first place.

 

Understanding of course, I shouldn't deliberately trek into the bush after Tiger with C45S loaded for CAS.

A couple reasons I can think of, after testing a couple light loads with 160 gr, include having a bullet common to rifle and pistols, assuming the rifle only fires 45 Colt. Even then the rifle must be limited in velocity. Another is that so far with Titegroup I am not getting "enough" recoil and feel of the 5.5" barrel guns (Vaquero, El Patron) and am wondering if I might wind up with 180 or 200 grain bullets, favoring the 200 grain idea at this point. However, the Lyman minimum for W231/HP38 (160, 45ACP) was a serious shooter, begging to be cut back for SASS use. I reduced it 10% and will test that as soon as weather allows.

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1 hour ago, Hashknife Cowboy said:

Can't you just start shooting .38's?    

Yes, but then reloading would be a chore rather than a hobby. That and the fact that I don't have a 38 rifle, choosing instead to invest in a JM Marlin Cowboy 45 Colt, since prepared to run really well. I had two 45 Colt single actions that were languishing in the safe. Thought it would be fun to mix it up, while learning something about ammo alternatives. I also switched my 38 revolvers to 38 Long Colt, which suits those PC Jrs. really well and allows them to shoot full power, the kind of shooting I prefer.

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On 2/7/2020 at 3:15 PM, bgavin said:

I stopped by my FFL to cough up another $75 fee, another $40 background check, and another 10-day wait for my Vaquero Bisley 44.

While I was there, I browsed through some of the loading manuals they leave on the Dillon display counter.
The SPEER manual was VERY interesting:

Speed champions the 44 Russian brass specifically for low velocity cowboy loads.
This info is NOT on their web site.
They had quite a write-up and wide set of powders and loads for 200 grains in the printed book.
231, Trail Boss and other powders are listed for Min/Max loads.
Speer says to use 44SP brass pressures.

Starline #4400 Russian is the ticket, as it has the shortest trimmed length:

• 0.960" Russian
• 1.160" 44 Special
• 1.285" 44 Mag

Hey, be quiet now. I don't know where you got this data, but it is obviously in error. 44 russian is not a good competitive round. It's old and antiquated and should not be used by anyone at all. Ever. Nothing to see here folks. Move along, move along.

 

I don't often shoot fast, or win competitions and love to shoot full cases of 45 colt, but when i am feeling particularly frisky and want to at least have  chance at winning in FCGF, I dust of the 44's and run them in 44 russian. Compared to my full cases of ffg under 250 grain bullet, they feel like I am shooting my son's .22's. Virtually no recoil at all, a bit less smoke to deal with, and oh so much faster to run.

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Baloney.
Starline makes modern brass as their #4400 44 Russian.
Do you think anybody in this day and age of Lawyers and Litigation would make dangerous brass?

You are welcome to shoot whatever you please.
But telling somebody to be quiet puts you way over the line.

 

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23 hours ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

Do you mean to say that you are loading 45CS or 45 Colt? That 4.5 Titegroup and 160 bullet were too light for me in 45CS, so I have a small batch at 4.9 to test. I kinda think I will favor more recoil than some would prefer. I liked working with Titegroup since I could see it when placing a bullet. In the black powder derivative cases like 38 Special,  especially 357 magnum, and less so in the wider-mouthed 45 Colt I need a loftier powder that rises higher in the case. Titegroup recommends itself by being one with lower velocities. Clays appears to be the champ there, but I will wait until spring to shoot those.

Hi R.R.  I am using 45 colt.

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48 minutes ago, bgavin said:

Baloney.
Starline makes modern brass as their #4400 44 Russian.
Do you think anybody in this day and age of Lawyers and Litigation would make dangerous brass?

You are welcome to shoot whatever you please.
But telling somebody to be quiet puts you way over the line.

 

Are you talking to me? It was a joke pal. I guess you didn't catch my tongue in cheek sarcasm. So basically I was agreeing with you. My point was to try to discourage folks from using my favorite gamer round. If you read the whole post, I said in the second half that it's exactly what I use when I want to go fast, but it won't help me if everyone else is doing it to. You southern California folks need to lighten up a bit. Come on up here and shoot with us. We are way more laid back.

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Thank you very much for the clarification.
I do appreciate it, very much.
There is no tone of voice on the internet it is hard to tell sometimes just from the words.

I'm NorCal (Sacramento).
If you come to matches at Diamond Dick's I will be happy to shake your hand and make your acquaintance.

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2 hours ago, bgavin said:

Thank you very much for the clarification.
I do appreciate it, very much.
There is no tone of voice on the internet it is hard to tell sometimes just from the words.

I'm NorCal (Sacramento).
If you come to matches at Diamond Dick's I will be happy to shake your hand and make your acquaintance.

Oh excellent. I assumed that Orangevale was in Orange county. I am a transplant from Oregon so I don't now all the cities in our great state. I have been to DDCT and plan to again. It's a great place to shoot. I'll swing by and shake hands, but only if you are shooting 44 russian too ;)

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20 minutes ago, bgavin said:

Deal.
I'm expecting 200 pc of #4400 this afternoon from UPS.

Actually it'll have to be next year then. I have sworn to shoot only cap guns this year haha.

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