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Quizcat

Load 45LC, but with a recoil level of 38Spl.?

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39 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

In my Vaquero's I'm using 4.2 grn. of Clays under a 160 grn. coated RNFP bullet in the C45S case and recoil is quite minimal with barely any muzzle flip. The brass comes out pretty clean and I get no leading in the barrel. The only time I've had issues with leading is using "hard cast" lead bullets. For me anyway---shooting at a target 5 yards away, I don't worry too much about the PSI to lead hardness issue or velocity deviation if there is any to speak of. I did start this combo with lead uncoated bullets from Missouri & Ringer and never had any issues. I haven't worried too much about a double charge as I'd have to remove the round from the loader and put it back under the powder die to double charge. I use a Dillon SDB progressive and knock on wood several times in 30+ years it has never short changed the powder or overcharged it. I just hated the filth and expense of TB powder. YMMV

 

Were your Missouri Bullets in the 18 Brinnel hardness?  Have you ever tried their extreme coating?  Missouri Bullet also has some 12-Brinnel bullets that have their extreme coating.  Not sure the extreme coating would be preferable to uncoated lead alloy or not.  I'm also wondering if the 12-Brinnel (softer bullet) might be even a better hardness because it is even softer yet.

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3 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

 

Good to know...Are you using regular .45 Colt casings?

 

 I use regular, unmodfied .45 Colt brass from Remington, Winchester, Starline, Federal and a slew of "others."   I just use what I find and it all works the same.

I use it in everything from a 4-3/4" SAA to a Konverted Walker.  In the SAA recoil is insignificant.   In the Walker it is non existent.   

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2 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

 I use regular, unmodfied .45 Colt brass from Remington, Winchester, Starline, Federal and a slew of "others."   I just use what I find and it all works the same.

I use it in everything from a 4-3/4" SAA to a Konverted Walker.  In the SAA recoil is insignificant.   In the Walker it is non existent.   

 Good to know...thanks!

 

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I use the C45S case in my 4-3/4" Colt SAAs.  They're loaded w/3.7 grains of Clay's behind a 160 grain FRN bullet.  Looking at a same sized case (45ACP), the Hodgdon manual lists that load @ about 875fps.  However, the cylinder gap reduces the fps quite a bit.  I know I've chronographed my 3.7 load, but it's been many years & I've forgotten the exact number.  Another factor to consider is that Rugers have a tighter gap than my mid-70's Colts.   I've gotten these 160gr. bullets from 3 different suppliers.  I'm currently using up the last few 160s I got from Badman Bullets in Oregon.  The first guy I bought from is no longer in business, (for the past several years).  I just purchased 2500 of the .452" 160s, poly coated, from Red River Bullet Co.  I've been using this size bullet in the C45S case for at least 10 years.  

 

I've used as light a charge as 3.2 grains.... but found ignition to be a tad irregular;  the ding was lighter than the report of the shot... not to conducive to accurate spotting.  I've also found over the years that a little recoil is your friend.  Too little and the gun doesn't reposition itself for consistent cocking.  But, that's a personal preference.  It also closely duplicates my 45ACP Wild Bunch loads.  The heavier charge also helps with case expansion.  Critical to keeping the action clean & reducing blow-by.  Again, that's personal preference.

 

Believe me, I played with the 45 Colt case for many, many years in this game with just about every powder made w/no joy.  The C45S case is THE answer.

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Interesting that shooters will buy 45 Cowboy Special brass but generally not 38 Long Colt.

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I found out (too late) that one can buy Starline brass cheaper, directly from Starline than from Midway.
45CS brass is $0.23 each in lots of 1,000 and comes with free shipping.
38SP is $0.14

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1 hour ago, bgavin said:

I found out (too late) that one can buy Starline brass cheaper, directly from Starline than from Midway.
45CS brass is $0.23 each in lots of 1,000 and comes with free shipping.
38SP is $0.14

I'll definitely check that out, thanks!

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On 10/5/2019 at 4:06 PM, levi littleton said:

Just checking but  you are going to the 45CS brass and not trying to down load 45 Colt brass right?

 

Trail Boss iirc is suppose to be loaded to the bottom of the bullet and no air space for proper/consistant ignition  and no chance of a Kaboom.  Light loads and big cases is just asking for blown cases/guns.

Yep, intending to use the .45CS brass, definitely...

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17 hours ago, Quizcat said:

 

Were your Missouri Bullets in the 18 Brinnel hardness?  Have you ever tried their extreme coating?  Missouri Bullet also has some 12-Brinnel bullets that have their extreme coating.  Not sure the extreme coating would be preferable to uncoated lead alloy or not.  I'm also wondering if the 12-Brinnel (softer bullet) might be even a better hardness because it is even softer yet.

Just my .02 on coated vs. "uncoated."  I have a very high lead level, so I've been doing everything I can to reduce my lead level.  I started using coated bullets, so I am not having direct contact with the lead.  as an aside, I noted that coated bullets feed a lot smoother in my rifle. I don't notice any difference in my pistols.  

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Just my .02 on coated vs. "uncoated."  I have a very high lead level, so I've been doing everything I can to reduce my lead level.  I started using coated bullets, so I am not having direct contact with the lead.  as an aside, I noted that coated bullets feed a lot smoother in my rifle. I don't notice any difference in my pistols.  

 

Yes, definitely a wise decisioin on limiting lead exposure.  It is one of the reasons I've been relunctant to get involved in casting my own bullets.  Seems that heating up lead without proper ventilation is  just asking for it, and I don't have anywhere that I feel comfortable enough about that to get into it.  

 

With regard to my question about brinnel hardness, do you remember if your bullets were 18 Brinnel?  I know Missouri Bullet has bullets in both 18 Brinnel and 12 Brinnel.  Missouri Bullet once recommended 18 Brinnell Coated to me, but I notice they also have some 12 Brinnel hardness, coated, and was wondering if the softer bullet would be preferable.

Edited by Quizcat

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7 minutes ago, Sarge said:

as an aside, I noted that coated bullets feed a lot smoother in my rifle.

 

May I ask what rifle you are using? :)

 

Thanks, Equanimous

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2 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

May I ask what rifle you are using? :)

 

Thanks, Equanimous

I shoot a Uberti 66 clone that I've modified to use C.45Spl with a Smith-Shop lifter.

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5 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

 

Yes, definitely a wise decisioin on limiting lead exposure.  It is one of the reasons I've been relunctant to get involved in casting my own bullets.  Seems that heating up lead without proper ventilation is  just asking for it, and I don't have anywhere that I feel comfortable enough about that to get into it.  

 

With regard to my question about brinnel hardness, do you remember if your bullets were 18 Brinnel?  I know Missouri Bullet has bullets in both 18 Brinnel and 12 Brinnel.  Missouri Bullet once recommended 18 Brinnell Coated to me, but I notice they also have some 12 Brinnel hardness, coated, and was wondering if the softer bullet would be preferable.

I'm using a 160 grn coated .452 bullet from Standard Bullet Company.  Sorry do not know the Brinnel hardness.

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2 hours ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

Interesting that shooters will buy 45 Cowboy Special brass but generally not 38 Long Colt.

 

Has anybody experimented with 38 long Colt or 38 Short Colt Brass? I don't know, haven't checked out the muzzle velocities, but perhaps the knock down pressure starts to reduce to the extent that the targets don't fall down or dimple sufficiently at the muzzle velocity created by 38 Long Colt  or 38 Short Colt.  Starline has them both, and their information reveals that both can be chambered in most .357/.38spl revolvers.  

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Using coated bullet helps but the main exposure to lead is from the primer.  The lead from the styphanate be omes a fine dust eadily inhaled.  Good rotation of personnel at the firing line is a good idea.  Switching to Diazodinitrophenol based primer would also help.

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Just now, LostVaquero said:

Using coated bullet helps but the main exposure to lead is from the primer.  The lead from the styphanate be omes a fine dust eadily inhaled.  Good rotation of personnel at the firing line is a good idea.  Switching to Diazodinitrophenol based primer would also help.

Yep.  I am aware, but when your lead count is 37, you take all precautions.  I even started wearing a respirator when I shoot indoors.  Didn't mean to take this thread in a different direction, lead has been seriously discussed in several other threads here.  Just brought is up when the OP was comparing coated vs un-coated.  

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12 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

 

Has anybody experimented with 38 long Colt or 38 Short Colt Brass? I don't know, haven't checked out the muzzle velocities, but perhaps the knock down pressure starts to reduce to the extent that the targets don't fall down or dimple sufficiently at the muzzle velocity created by 38 Long Colt  or 38 Short Colt.  Starline has them both, and their information reveals that both can be chambered in most .357/.38spl revolvers.  

Little recoil, use my 32 single and try 32 S&W.  85g at 750, just puts it above 60 pf.  Problem is that little bullet at that rate most spotters cannot see or hear and I get called a miss.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

Missouri Bullet once recommended 18 Brinnell Coated to me, but I notice they also have some 12 Brinnel hardness, coated, and was wondering if the softer bullet would be preferable.


BHN=18 is for magnum pressure at 23,036 psi.

No way are you ever going to get close to that in 45 Colt.
Remember this was introduced in 1873, and pressures like this did not exist.

The 45 Colt loads I've seen range from BHN=3.1 to BHN=10.9, with the vast majority at the very low end of that range.
The highest BHN I've seen is 10.9 at 1154 fps, 180 grains, and a whopping 7.45 lbs of recoil.

 

Edited by bgavin

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5 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Yep.  I am aware, but when your lead count is 37, you take all precautions.  I even started wearing a respirator when I shoot indoors. 


Sarge, are you a regular timer operator?
As a noob shooter, I'm curious how your counts got so high.

It is my understanding that lead has to be ingested or inhaled, not just from touching skin.

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No.  I've been a competitive shooter and police trainer since 1978.  PPC, Bullseye, etc.  I believe it is mostly related to unprotected indoor shooting.  On top of that, casting bullets, reloading, etc.  Problem is if you touch your face with lead on your hands, it's going to get ingested.  Feel free to PM me with additional questions.  Again, I don't want to go off the rails here.

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1 hour ago, Quizcat said:

 

Has anybody experimented with 38 long Colt or 38 Short Colt Brass? I don't know, haven't checked out the muzzle velocities, but perhaps the knock down pressure starts to reduce to the extent that the targets don't fall down or dimple sufficiently at the muzzle velocity created by 38 Long Colt  or 38 Short Colt.  Starline has them both, and their information reveals that both can be chambered in most .357/.38spl revolvers.  

Both. 

 

I really like .38 Short Colt for frontier cartridge. 

 

Not enough difference for my wife or myself when shooting smokeless (Trail Boss, specifically) in .38 Special. 

 

C45S on the other hand is noticeably better for light loads than in the larger .45 Colt with smokeless.  Great for frontier cartridge as well. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Quizcat said:

 

Has anybody experimented with 38 long Colt or 38 Short Colt Brass? I don't know, haven't checked out the muzzle velocities, but perhaps the knock down pressure starts to reduce to the extent that the targets don't fall down or dimple sufficiently at the muzzle velocity created by 38 Long Colt  or 38 Short Colt.  Starline has them both, and their information reveals that both can be chambered in most .357/.38spl revolvers.  

 

Chief Rick's comments are good.  But yes shot both versions of the 38 as well.  Wife and I have been using 32-20 for several years after using C45S prior in my rifle and pistols.  All smokeless.  I have no doubt you can't get  to the level of recoil in a C45S that I easily get in a decent 32-20 round.  115 gr or 100gr bullets the norm there and 4.5gr of HP 38.  Heard it happening to others but we've never had a question of hit on steel with the 32-20 in rifle or pistol.  Likely need to shoot faster :)    But back on topic.   Several things worth noting on the subject of recoil.   Ballistics say you want the  lightest bullet and smallest powder charge, least amount of pressure.   Down side is guns get heavier as the caliber  gets smaller.   Up side to a heavier gun is they recoil less.  There is nothing free in the equation.

 

Any of the 38 cases are going to easier to reload and last longer than the 32-20.  The 38 cases are also cheaper than the C45S brass.

 

1000 rd lots from Starline .

 

45 Colt  .19 cent a case    200gr $100 per

C45S     .23                          160g lead $94. per 1000 (Badman Bullets)

38 Sp    .14                           125gr $82

38 L      .16                            100gr  $68

38S       .16                             ""

32-20    .20                          115gr  lead  $80 per 1000

 

The smaller the caliber and the lighter the bullet the cheaper the bullets are.  The smaller the case the less powder you'll use.  The caveat not mentioned is how accurate the guns are and if that matters on SASS steel.   I am picky about guns.  I want them to be very accurate or don't care much about shooting them.  .  I don't like 38 cases in a  357 magnum chamber.  Worse yet the shorter 38s in the typical Uberti 357 magnum cylinders.  So for better or worse I  decided on 32-20 to reduce recoil and have an accurate gun.   Makes some since as the cartridge actually fits a SAA cylinder as it was designed.   If I were to do it again it would be a SAA chambered in 38 Special (not 357 mag) simply for cost and ease of reloading.   Hard to argue a .38 won't be accurate in the right gun.

 

Typical 6  and 12 round groups @ 20 yard with my 32-20s using a 115gr bullet.  Almost no recoil in a heavy gun.

Accuracy at a level that is obviously not required on SASS steel.  But if I miss steel I want to know it is me and not a gun that shoots 6" groups @ 15 yards.

 

DSC00929 (4).JPG

Edited by levi littleton
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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Quizcat said:

 

Were your Missouri Bullets in the 18 Brinnel hardness?  Have you ever tried their extreme coating?  Missouri Bullet also has some 12-Brinnel bullets that have their extreme coating.  Not sure the extreme coating would be preferable to uncoated lead alloy or not.  I'm also wondering if the 12-Brinnel (softer bullet) might be even a better hardness because it is even softer yet.

Sorry Q, I haven't specified a certain hardness when ordering from Missouri and the last time I did I got just plain lead bullets, not coated. The coated bullets I've been using this past year have been from Ringer. From my experience with my guns, I think the 12 Brinnell would be the best choice for a low velocity round. I now like the coated bullets as they don't gunk up the seating die. The only times I've had leading issues was when using "hard cast" bullets. I also had excellent luck with "Desperado Cowboy Bullets", they were the first soft ones I've used and made a huge difference in leading. They tend to be a bit greasy with the lube they use and gunked up my die quicker. They were also excellent to deal with but the packaging wasn't as good as Missouri or Ringer. The Post office is brutal with such small extremely heavy boxes and less than double packaging shows when they arrive! Just ran down stairs and the empty boxes from Missouri say Brinell is 12.

Edited by Eyesa Horg

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I read somewhere that when shooting .45 Specials in a revolver chambered in .45 Colt, that there is an issue with respect to headspace, since the 45 Special is a shorter cartridge than the .45 Colt Casing, and that this discrepency with respect to casing length/headspace does effect accuracy pretty substaintially.  Anybody have any knowledge or experience that confirms this?

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They both have a .060" rim, so headspace is unaffected.

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23 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

I read somewhere that when shooting .45 Specials in a revolver chambered in .45 Colt, that there is an issue with respect to headspace, since the 45 Special is a shorter cartridge than the .45 Colt Casing, and that this discrepency with respect to casing length/headspace does effect accuracy pretty substaintially.  Anybody have any knowledge or experience that confirms this?

There is not a headspace issue between the C45S & 45 Colt cartridges.  The C45S is simply a 45ACP length case with a 45 Colt rim.  The only issue I've heard about is the same as one between shooting 38Specials in a 357Magnum chamber.  One of carbon build up in the unused space.  Keeping that carbon cleaned out will prevent any increased pressure when firing 45 Colts in the gun after shooting C45S cartridges.

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46 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

I read somewhere that when shooting .45 Specials in a revolver chambered in .45 Colt, that there is an issue with respect to headspace, since the 45 Special is a shorter cartridge than the .45 Colt Casing, and that this discrepency with respect to casing length/headspace does effect accuracy pretty substaintially.  Anybody have any knowledge or experience that confirms this?

 

 

As the previous posts have said it is not a head space issue but a free bore issue.  It is a long ways for the bullet from a  C45S case  to travel before exciting the cylinder and entering the forcing cone of the barrel.   The lwt bullet will have a shorter side wall touching the barrel so the effect on accuracy will have a greater effect on the C45S with a 160 than the same with a 200gr bullet..

 

It is more than what you will see between 38 Special @ 1.15"  and 357 mag. @ 1.29" case length.  C45S is .895" and  45 Colt is 1.285"  

Add the difference in bullet weight, 160gr in C45S to a 255gr in a 45 Colt and the POA/POI will be rather shocking for anyone but a SASS shooter intent on hitting big steel with in spitting distance. 

 

If guys are shooting round balls  from C45S and 38 Colt brass obviously accuracy isn't a big concern.    On paper at any kind of distance past 5 yards you'll see some pretty dismal results of big groups and big changes in point of impact from point of aim as you make the cases smaller by volume and the bullets lighter from what the norm is for the cartridge the gun  is chambered for. 

 

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Posted (edited)

My 45 Colt revolvers are regulated to 45 Colt cartridges and 255 grain bullets. The 200 gr shot about 4" high at 50 feet. I am wondering what POI I should expect with 45CS and 160 grain bullets.

 

Editing to acknowledge that I may have recalled this incorrectly. I will shoot each weight bullet again with careful POA. I should expect the heavier buller to shoot higher, but my Trailboss loads are not identical. I do know that gunsmiths have altered the front sights for center hold with 255 bullets.

Edited by Roscoe Regulator

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Only way to know is actually shoot some 160s from a C45S case. 

 

If it were only as simple as 4" high.   That is a perfect shot with the gun vertical.    Cant the gun and  the change can suddenly  be 4" left or right.    You start loosing a lot of leeway on how much slop you can tolerate in accuracy and still hit with.  Lots of folks  do it how ever and close shots on big targets allow it.

 

 

 

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Has anybody done an accurate H2O capacity measurement of the Starline C45S cases?

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43 minutes ago, bgavin said:

Has anybody done an accurate H2O capacity measurement of the Starline C45S cases?

Not that it has anything to do with the OP ...  

The Cowboy 45 Special case is the same as a 45 ACP w/ a rim (a normal thickness rim .. not the double thickness like on the 45AR).

There is plenty of data out there on the 45 ACP ...  

Also ... I can absolutely positively swear that my Cowboy 45 Special loads ... DID NOT ... shoot higher ... (my gosh ... there is like no recoil at all ... they shot lower than my old combo rifle/pistol 45 Colt load).

AND ... in regard to bullet jump ... please watch this video (there are many like this out there but this guy even mentions the C45S).

 https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019/08/17/how-good-is-efficient-case-capacity-how-bad-is-revolver-bullet-jump/

 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Not that it has anything to do with the OP ...  

The Cowboy 45 Special case is the same as a 45 ACP w/ a rim (a normal thickness rim .. not the double thickness like on the 45AR).

There is plenty of data out there on the 45 ACP ...  

 

 


Actually it relates directly to the OP and his question.
He is looking for reduced loads, and the C45S is mentioned as a viable alternative.
This is a wildcat cartridge with no published loads, so case data is indeed relevant to develop loads from scratch.

Starline brass uses thicker bases than Remington or Winchester, so the capacity is different.
Wayne McLerran demonstrated this with detailed measurements of 45-70 brass.
If somebody has the measurement of C45S, this would eliminate guess work and supposition.

Edited by bgavin

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1 minute ago, bgavin said:


Actually it relates directly to the OP and his question.
He is looking for reduced loads, and the C45S is mentioned as a viable alternative.
This is a wildcat cartridge with no published loads, so case data is indeed relevant to develop loads from scratch.

Starline brass uses thicker bases than Remington or Winchester, so the capacity is different.
Wayne McLerran demonstrated this with detailed measurements of 45-70 brass.
If somebody has the measurement of C45S, this would eliminate guess work and supposition.

 

Starline is the ONLY manufacturer of C45S brass.

If you want published loads use 45 ACP or 45 AR.

This is not a biggie ... the short cases allow you to create a light load w/o having to worry about inconsistent ignition due to excessive case volume ... 

AND ...  you don't have to purchase an ACP cylinder for your revolver or stuff foam rod into the 45 Colt case to keep the powder in the same zip code.

This has been around for a while ... it isn't a configuration that is looking for approval.

If you go to a match I would be shocked if there wasn't at least one person shooting C45S (to continue to shoot the revolvers they already owned) ... 

AND would probably be delighted to let anyone try them out.  :)

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Posted (edited)

I'm not looking for approval, nor do I have a dog in the fight.
My interest is entirely academic for my education.
I'm curious if somebody has actually measured the capacity of C45S, rather than taking it as gospel based on 45 ACP.

When I pick brass at our meets, I see a bit of C45S in the pickings.
Yes, our shooters are always happy to provide a Try-Me or two for those who are interested.

Edited by bgavin

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20160816_121501_zps1jgno8d4.jpg.2ff318a3c4caa61215e77fc7aadf7d87.jpg

 

I had this pair of Rugers in 45ACP that I shot C45S.  The throats were super to tight so the C45S had to be loaded with 451 bullets to chamber.  

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