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Quizcat

Load 45LC, but with a recoil level of 38Spl.?

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I found this archived topic for .45 Colt.

 

And this archived topic for .38 Special.

 

And these two for Cowboy .45 Special - one, two.

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6 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

I found this archived topic for .45 Colt.

 

And this archived topic for .38 Special.

 

And these two for Cowboy .45 Special - one, two.

Hey, thanks...appreciate it so much!

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11 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

I found this archived topic for .45 Colt.

 

And this archived topic for .38 Special.

 

And these two for Cowboy .45 Special - one, two.

Hey, thanks...appreciate it so much!

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Posted (edited)

I've purchased a number of bullets in other calibers from Missouri Bullet.  Is 12 Brinnel considered "soft" enough with respect to loading to achieve reduced recoil using the Trail Boss 3.8 grains Powder recipe?  They don't seem to offer a 160 grain bullet.  Is a 180 grain bullet close enough, and how should I tweak the grains of powder to accommodate the 180 grain bullet, up or down from 3.8 grains? Is coating recommended when reloading for these low recoil rounds with respect to safe velocities, leading, etc...?

 

From the Missouri Bullet Website:

Cowboy #8-Hi-Tek

.452 

Diameter

.45 Colt

180 Grain

RNFP

Brinell = 12

For Cowboy Action Shooting Velocities

Hi-Tek 2-Extreme  Coating

 

 

Edited by Quizcat

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Just checking but  you are going to the 45CS brass and not trying to down load 45 Colt brass right?

 

Trail Boss iirc is suppose to be loaded to the bottom of the bullet and no air space for proper/consistant ignition  and no chance of a Kaboom.  Light loads and big cases is just asking for blown cases/guns.

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12 minutes ago, levi littleton said:

Trail Boss iirc is suppose to be loaded to the bottom of the bullet and no air space for proper/consistant ignition  and no chance of a Kaboom.  Light loads and big cases is just asking for blown cases/guns.

Trail Boss starting load is 70% case capacity from the base of the bullet, up to a max load of 100% capacity to the base of the bullet.

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1 hour ago, Quizcat said:

I've purchased a number of bullets in other calibers from Missouri Bullet.  Is 12 Brinnel considered "soft" enough with respect to loading to achieve reduced recoil using the Trail Boss 3.8 grains Powder recipe?  They don't seem to offer a 160 grain bullet.  Is a 180 grain bullet close enough, and how should I tweak the grains of powder to accommodate the 180 grain bullet, up or down from 3.8 grains? Is coating recommended when reloading for these low recoil rounds with respect to safe velocities, leading, etc...?

 

From the Missouri Bullet Website:

Cowboy #8-Hi-Tek

.452 

Diameter

.45 Colt

180 Grain

RNFP

Brinell = 12

For Cowboy Action Shooting Velocities

Hi-Tek 2-Extreme  Coating

 

 

Looking at my load data, when I played around with C45S  a couple years ago I used Missouri Bullets non-coated 180 gr RNFP over 4.0 gr Trail Boss.

 

My notes don't show velocity or perceived recoil but they were safe in a pair of Ruger New Vaqueros.

 

I will be experimenting again in the future with these bullets but it's going to be a little while.

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56 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

Trail Boss starting load is 70% case capacity from the base of the bullet, up to a max load of 100% capacity to the base of the bullet.

 

 

Thanks.   My point was  even 70% of a 45 Colt case and a 165 gr 45 bullet is going to be a lot more than a 110, 38 load for recoil.

 

Any other powder than TB or BP and you'll have a lot of space in a 45 Case.   Big cases, light powder charges by volume make for some unsafe ammo. 

 

Been said several times you aren't going to get 38 level recoil from a 45.   Even with CB45 brass you can get light loads but not what you can run in a 38.   Go to one of the shorter 38 cases and you can get even less recoil.

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You might want to look at .45 Auto Rim data.  I keep two pistol powders on my reloading bench.  TB and WST.  I use WST  in my .45 ACP bullseye loads.  I tried it in my Cowboy .45 Spl., and for some reason, it just didn't like WST.  So, I just stick with the TB.  I use the C.45 Spl. in both my rifle and pistols, so the expense isn't too bad.  I've not had a problem with blowback or primers backing out (I did have a problem with primers backing out and rounds not gong bang with the WST.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Quizcat said:

Is 12 Brinnel considered "soft" enough with respect to loading to achieve reduced recoil using the Trail Boss 3.8 grains Powder recipe? 
...
Is coating recommended when reloading for these low recoil rounds with respect to safe velocities, leading, etc...?

 


Hodgdon shows a minimum TB load of 6 grains with the 180 grain LRNFP bullet.
My understanding is loading below the minimum puts you into the range of detonation (read: explosion).

The Hodgdon maximum load is 7.3 grains, 12,700 psi, BHN=9.9, 935 fps, and 5.08 lbs of recoil in a 2.8 pound revolver.
The minimum load is 6.0 grains, 9,400 psi, BHN=7.3, 818 fps, and 3.8 lbs of recoil.
We are limited to 1,000 fps maximum in revolvers.

There are no Hodgdon loads for 180 grain 45 Colt that get you to BHN=12 pressures.
Period-authentic Colts are not designed to tolerate Ruger-like high pressures.

With this in mind, there is no way around the need for soft cast lead in 45 Colt.
Harder lead requires higher pressures which produces higher velocity and more recoil.

Several guys in our posse(s) shoot 45 Colt with Trail Boss or Clean Shot.
They clean up their fired brass and barrel leading and go on from there.

I figure every new cowboy has changed his mind about after his first run of bullets.
I have 3,000 Missouri #17, 125 grain LRNFP in 38 that I can't match with Trail Boss.
These do match with 3.9 grains of IMR Red, which I have to load carefully, as the fill percentage is only around 34%.


 


 

Edited by bgavin
edited for clarity

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Bullets by Scarlett shows the 160 grain 45 Cal on the list of available bullets.

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Posted (edited)
On 10/4/2019 at 9:17 AM, Quizcat said:

I have neurapathy in my fingers (numbness), and having the additional leverage in cocking the hammer seems to be easier for me, which is counter intuitive to the reason represented by the manufacturers that the shorter hammer spur is better for Cowboy Action Shooting.  I suppose the ease of use assiciated with the shorter hammer spur might be whether you're shooting dualist or not.  The neurapathy is also the reason I'm weighing .38spl against 45LC recoil.  

 

You are correct.  The lower, wider hammer spur on the SASS Ruger New Vaqueros primarily helps those shooting in a "Duelist" style.   I found that when shooting with a two-handed hold, the lower hammers occasionally catch the web of my hand, and result in the "Ruger-go-round"  chasing that one unfired cartridge, to get off the 5th shot.    So, on the occasions I shoot two-handed, I use a pair that have the taller spur.   For me, that's much faster.  So, I'd say settle on a category and shooting style.  Most folks start in an age-based category, and after a shooting for a while, they might branch out to something else.  

 

From experience, yes, you can push a Cowboy .45 Special with l60gr bullet, with nearly  the same felt recoil of a .38 special.   But, it will never be identical.  You are always going to get a bit more, very manageable recoil.  I found that going too low with powder however, will give erratic results.    I experimented with Trail Boss and the C45S case, and found that if I dropped below .3.4 gr, which gave me a very mild 625fps - 640fps, then the results gave me too much deviation, and the groups spread wider.   Also, when I get to the point that there is no recoil, I found my times suffered.  No matter how much I try to train it out of myself, something in me still wants that "feedback" to get moving on to the next target.  So, I've settled on 3.4 Trailboss, or a close equivalent, (but different gr. wt. loads) of Clays, Red Dot, or Shooter's World Clean Shot, for when I'm shooting .45s.   (I had to experiment with the loads with these powders to find what worked, spending a fair amount of time at an indoor range and evaluating recoil, group size, and Point of Impact vs. Point of Aim.)  I load much heavier for the rifle in a standard .45 Colt Case, or a .45 Schofield case, as I find I don't feel recoil at all from the rifle.  

Edited by McCandless
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On 10/5/2019 at 9:52 AM, Quizcat said:

 

I have a couple of collectible Ruger Emiliano Zappata (TALO) .45LC revolvers that are collectable, in a shadow box, blued, gold leaf on them, imitation ivory grips, etc...etc...etc..I don't want to actually shoot the commemorative Emiliano Zappata Revolvers or it will degrade the embellishments on them very quickly.  So, I got a 45LC New Vaquero in Stainless as a stand-in the for the collectables, something I can actually shoot that's identical to the collectables, minus the collectable embellishments. 

 

But, you might know it...I have Unique, Bullseye, Power Pistol, Longshot, Universal, Hodgdon H110, and Accurate, on the loading bench, but no Trail Boss. 

 

Anybody know if any of the powders I have already will correlate pretty closely with the performance of Trail Boss?  I suppose I can determine the muzzle velocity of 3.5 grains of Trail Boss and apply it to the various powders I have, and make a selection after factoring in the 160 grain Round Nose Flat Point bullet, and get pretty close. 

 

Any opinions on which of these powders I already have would be closest to the performance of Trail Boss, with respect to burn rate, cleanliness, etc...?  It would be nice to use one of the powders I already have, and then get some Trail Boss later to further experiment if one of the powders I have that's close to Trail Boss shows promise.

 

 

picture-22-2-tm (1).jpg

1.jpg

Hodgdon online data shows me that your Universal will do a good job of staying back from the SASS revolver velocity limit of 1000 fps with a 160 gr bullet. Trailboss minimum is pushing it and could be better suited to a heavier bullet.

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Roscoe,

Can you post the bullet overall length and seated depth (base to cannelure)?
I assume it is a traditional lead design with cannelure.

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On 10/3/2019 at 4:54 PM, Quizcat said:

My caliber preference with respect to authenticity is the 45LC caliber.  But,  I don't know if I can have my cake and eat it too compared to the preferably mild recoil of 38spl.  I'm torn between whether to purchase new revolvers in .38spl or 45LC, and hoping, perhaps, that I can somehow reload 45LC to recoil pretty closely to the recoil level of 38spl factory loads.  Will 45 Spl. cases fit the .45LC chambering?

It is "45 Colt".  And it's a "cartridge,  or in the case of a gun, the chambering;  not a "caliber"...   The caliber for this cartridge varies from .451 to .454.  Yes, you & I may fully be aware of what we're discussing;  But, there may be those uninitiated folks that will read what we write and go off wondering, "what were those folks talking about?"  Or worse... "they're idiots, don't know the basic terminology and shouldn't ever be allowed a reloading bench..."   Yep, I've heard those comments at the non-cowboy type gun club... frustrating.

 

In both of the following photos, EVERY case there is marked... 45 Colt.  What more needs be said?

 

DSCN1176.jpg

 

DSCN1175.jpg

 

Now, in answer to your question, You can't have your cake & eat it too.  You can have some of your cake, if you partake of the the 160 grain bullet sold by several bullet manufacturers.  It will get you "close" to the 158 grain .38 Special loading...  Close as in hand grenades and horseshoes... When you get that low in felt recoil & velocity in the large 45 Colt case, pressures are way down there, and you've neared the area of squibs... Unless your powder measure is very accurate and throws extremely consistent charges... you'll be skirting with a squib.  The Cowboy45Special (correctly abbreviated to C45S) was developed by a cowboy action shooter for just this reason.  It is easy to duplicate the ~750 fps of the .38Special with the 160 grain .452 caliber bullets currently sold... at reasonable and consistent pressures.  Remember, this, part of the felt recoil is due the variance in weights between a gun chambered in 45 Colt & .38Special.

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Remember, this, part of the felt recoil is due the variance in weights between a gun chambered in 45 Colt & .38Special.

 

therein lies the rub.

 

Unless you can duplicate the power charge, bullet weight and pressure (important as well)  you won't duplicate the recoil and recoil impulse of a cartridge.  But no 45 is ever going to have the same recoil as a 38 unless the gun weights are the same.  There is a full 5oz difference between 45 and 38 on like Colt SAAs in the 4 3/4" barrel length.  You can't make up the gun weight difference.

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".45 Long Colt" has been common terminology for the cartridge since the 1870's. Everyone knows what you're talking about. ;)

LongColt.jpg

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Yep, you'll find them marked that way by foreign & "off-brand" companies... don't make it right.  

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HSM has been producing ammo in the Missoula area for over half a century. Not as big as Remington/UMC, Winchester, or Federal, but hardly an off-brand company. Over half of the others pictured are also US companies.

 

SAAMI calls it .45 Colt, and that's likely the definitive source for an "official" name, but *most folks* know .45 Colt and .45 Long Colt are the same thing - *most folks*, because every now and again someone new to the shooting sports asks the question.

 

Most folks call every small two engine business jet a Learjet.

Most folks see a skid steer and call it a Bobcat.

Most folks see a tracked dozer and call it a Cat.

Every personal water craft is a Jet Ski.

Every photo editor is Photoshop.

Every cyanoacrylate is Superglue.

Every copier is a Xerox.

Every pain reliever is Aspirin.

 

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, bgavin said:

Roscoe,

Can you post the bullet overall length and seated depth (base to cannelure)?
I assume it is a traditional lead design with cannelure.

If you are referring to the 160 gr 45 bullet from Bullets by Scarlett, you will need to inquire with Scarlett. I have the price list, not the bullets except other calibers so far.

Edited by Roscoe Regulator

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

HSM has been producing ammo in the Missoula area for over half a century. Not as big as Remington/UMC, Winchester, or Federal, but hardly an off-brand company. Over half of the others pictured are also US companies.

 

SAAMI calls it .45 Colt, and that's likely the definitive source for an "official" name, but *most folks* know .45 Colt and .45 Long Colt are the same thing - *most folks*, because every now and again someone new to the shooting sports asks the question.

 

Most folks call every small two engine business jet a Learjet.

Most folks see a skid steer and call it a Bobcat.

Most folks see a tracked dozer and call it a Cat.

Every personal water craft is a Jet Ski.

Every photo editor is Photoshop.

Every cyanoacrylate is Superglue.

Every copier is a Xerox.

Every pain reliever is Aspirin.

 

 

Yes, I agree completely, it seems like a splitting of hairs when everybody knows what we are referring to.  Frankly, if the commercial manufacturers refer to their commercially available product as 45LC, and 98% of them are producing millions of boxes of 45 Long Colt Ammo, labeled as such, then that's what they are, and that's why I refer to them as such. 

 

Why refer to them as .45 Long Colt, even though I know the historical distinction?

 

The participants in this forum understand the history, but it doesn't help the uninformed to be splitting hairs, which are the ones we are supposed to be trying to protect from making a mistake in selection of 45 Colt ammo for their revolvers.  If the uninformed are picking up commercially available .45 Colt ammo, when 98% of what is available commercially is going to be labeled as 45 Long Colt, then we aren't doing the uninformed a service when 98% of what is commercially available is labeled as 45 Long Colt, and 2% is labeled .45 Colt.  Most of the reloading data sources , and most prominent reloading manuals, refer to the round as 45 Long Colt as well.

 

 

Edited by Quizcat

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Griff said:

It is "45 Colt".  And it's a "cartridge,  or in the case of a gun, the chambering;  not a "caliber"...   The caliber for this cartridge varies from .451 to .454.  Yes, you & I may fully be aware of what we're discussing;  But, there may be those uninitiated folks that will read what we write and go off wondering, "what were those folks talking about?"  Or worse... "they're idiots, don't know the basic terminology and shouldn't ever be allowed a reloading bench..."   Yep, I've heard those comments at the non-cowboy type gun club... frustrating.

 

In both of the following photos, EVERY case there is marked... 45 Colt.  What more needs be said?

 

DSCN1176.jpg

 

DSCN1175.jpg

 

Now, in answer to your question, You can't have your cake & eat it too.  You can have some of your cake, if you partake of the the 160 grain bullet sold by several bullet manufacturers.  It will get you "close" to the 158 grain .38 Special loading...  Close as in hand grenades and horseshoes... When you get that low in felt recoil & velocity in the large 45 Colt case, pressures are way down there, and you've neared the area of squibs... Unless your powder measure is very accurate and throws extremely consistent charges... you'll be skirting with a squib.  The Cowboy45Special (correctly abbreviated to C45S) was developed by a cowboy action shooter for just this reason.  It is easy to duplicate the ~750 fps of the .38Special with the 160 grain .452 caliber bullets currently sold... at reasonable and consistent pressures.  Remember, this, part of the felt recoil is due the variance in weights between a gun chambered in 45 Colt & .38Special.

 

To clarify...My goal was to mimmick as closely as possible what can be anticipated from 38Spl recoil from a .45 Colt round.  Some have responded that they've gotten pretty close to 38spl with some of their recipes using .45spl casings.  I didn't know whether I could get exactly the same recoil out of 45 Colt as can be felt from 38spl.  I now know that I can get closer to the recoil felt from 38spl using certain recipes and casings.  Of course, physics has to be factored in for safety, and I also now know that there will be a recoil trade-off with respect to weight of the firearm, etc...I was merely looking for those who have the actual experience with rounds they've reloaded, and are willing to share their recipes and advice, to safely achieve the least amount of recoil from .45 Colt, and hopefully get as closely as possble to the recoil characteristics from commercially available 38spl ammo.

Edited by Quizcat

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There are some physics involved that have been touched on in answer to the OP's question.  The Cowboy 45 Special case and the 130Gr Hollow Base Barnstormer bullet were developed by Adirondack Jack.  The purpose was to put a .45 revolver on an even footing with .38 shooters.  It works .... mostly.

 

The best solution for the .45 shooter is the C45S case which reduces the case capacity to promote a better "burn" with reduced powder charges.  this also translates to BP and Subs.  Allows reduce BP and Sub loading without fillers (maybe).  Couple that with a really reduced weight bullet and you get vastly reduced recoil.  HOWEVER:  Ruger is famous for undersize cylinder throat dimensions which creates excess chamber pressure and increased felt recoil and the possibility of wonky accuracy.  If shooting a Ruger .45, the first step is to verify the cylinder throats.  Shooting a .451 or .452 bullet through a .448 or .449 throat is going to create excess felt recoil and result in an undersize for bore bullet.  For a .451 bore, the cylinder throat should be reamed to .4515 or .452 (for lead bullets at least).

 

SO:  Best bet for the OP is to forsake the 45 Colt case and switch to the C45S case.  Best choice for bullet is the 45 Barnstormer now available from Shootin Fox.

 

And ..... PLUS ONE too Griff.  Citing various and sundry references which contain an incorrect moniker do not make that incorrect moniker correct.  The use of the incorrect moniker just highlights a common mistake.

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Posted (edited)

Not to Muddy the Water,,,, but I have a Number of ". 45 " colt cartridges all factory produced before 1900 ...

The earliest dated (1874) ones are Marked .45 colts ( note no capital C ) this is also how the barrel on my First Gen. Colt is Marked .45 colts ....

And None of the ammo is Marked "Long Colt "

My very first encounter with ammo marked .45 Long Colt was about 130 years after 1873 ....

 

Just a Question ,,,, Why all the work to try and make the .45 Colt into something it ISN"T and never was intended to Be ALL to Pretend you are shooting something that you Are Not ...

The only one you are fooling is you ,,,, most of the rest of Us just Chuckle under our Breath ...

 

But as long as you are SASS legal and SAFE in what you Do have at it !!!

But blow a gun at my shoot , the Minium Range Ban is 2 years ... 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

And ..... PLUS ONE too Griff.  Citing various and sundry references which contain an incorrect moniker do not make that incorrect moniker correct.  The use of the incorrect moniker just highlights a common mistake.

 

Resepectfully, it is not "incorrect" but a matter of semantics when calling the cartridge .45 Long Colt, 45 Colt, .45LC, or 11.43x33mmr.  The 45 Long Colt cartridge has been referred to as such by US Army Quartermasters for well over one hundred years.  Here's the rest of the story...The US Army Quartermasters were responsible for getting the right ammo to the troops, and the need to distinguish it from the other .45 designations as they developed became important because the wrong ammo was showing up at times, and couldn't be used by the soldiers, which further illustrates why making the distinction was important, and still is for the inexperienced buyer of commerical ammo.   The precedent makes 45 Long Colt just as valid as describing it as 45 Colt, it's just a matter of semantics.  

 

Historical Record:

"The .45 Colt cartridge, which is sometimes called .45 Long Colt, .45 LC, or 11.43×33mmR, is a handgun cartridge dating to 1872. It was originally a black-powder revolver round developed for the Colt Single Action Army revolver. This cartridge was adopted by the U.S. Army in 1873 and served as an official US military handgun cartridge for 14 years. While it is sometimes referred to as .45 Long Colt or .45 LC, to differentiate it from the very popular .45 ACP, and historically, the shorter .45 S&W Schofield, it was only an unofficial designation by Army quartermasters.  Current catalog listings of compatible handguns list the caliber as .45 LC and .45 Colt.[2] Both the Schofield and the .45 Colt were used by the Army at the same period of time prior to the adoption of the M1882 Government version of the .45 Schofield cartridge."

Edited by Quizcat

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Posted (edited)

I fully realize I am trying to reduce the recoil, but I would rather have a revolver chambered in 45 Colt rather than .357/.38spl.  How am I fooling myself if I purposefully want to make reloads to reduce recoil for a Cowboy Action Shooting event?  I intend to fully research it before I ever reload a cartridge on the bench.  That's what I'm here for, and I have gotten some helpful feedback from reloaders that have done it successfully, safely, etc...but to imply that someone is "foolish" for trying to reduce recoil for an event is counterintuitive.  I don't particularly like the idea of ruining an expensive firearm either.  Rest assured that my reloads will be thoroughly researched and tested before I would ever show up to one of the club events. 

Quote

 

 

 

 

Edited by Quizcat

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2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

There are some physics involved that have been touched on in answer to the OP's question.  The Cowboy 45 Special case and the 130Gr Hollow Base Barnstormer bullet were developed by Adirondack Jack.  The purpose was to put a .45 revolver on an even footing with .38 shooters.  It works .... mostly.

 

The best solution for the .45 shooter is the C45S case which reduces the case capacity to promote a better "burn" with reduced powder charges.  this also translates to BP and Subs.  Allows reduce BP and Sub loading without fillers (maybe).  Couple that with a really reduced weight bullet and you get vastly reduced recoil.  HOWEVER:  Ruger is famous for undersize cylinder throat dimensions which creates excess chamber pressure and increased felt recoil and the possibility of wonky accuracy.  If shooting a Ruger .45, the first step is to verify the cylinder throats.  Shooting a .451 or .452 bullet through a .448 or .449 throat is going to create excess felt recoil and result in an undersize for bore bullet.  For a .451 bore, the cylinder throat should be reamed to .4515 or .452 (for lead bullets at least).

 

SO:  Best bet for the OP is to forsake the 45 Colt case and switch to the C45S case.  Best choice for bullet is the 45 Barnstormer now available from Shootin Fox.

 

And ..... PLUS ONE too Griff.  Citing various and sundry references which contain an incorrect moniker do not make that incorrect moniker correct.  The use of the incorrect moniker just highlights a common mistake.

 

Thanks, very good information and advice concerning the cylinder throat dimensions...

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Quizcat said:

I fully realize I am trying to reduce the recoil, but I would rather have a revolver chambered in 45 Colt rather than .357/.38spl.  How am I fooling myself if I purposefully want to make reloads to reduce recoil for a Cowboy Action Shooting event?


You are not fooling yourself, nor acting foolishly.
Opting for 45 colt just reduces your available options.

The heavier 45 colt bullet makes more recoil than a lighter 38SP bullet at the same velocity.
Given:  158 grain 38SP at 661 fps = 1.55 lbs in a 2.81 lb revolver.
Given:  105 grain 38SP at 662 fps = 0.75 lbs in the same revolver

Given: 160 grain 45C at 798 fps = 3.10 lbs in a 2.56 lb revolver
Given: 160 grain 45C at 419 fps = 0.87 lbs in a 2.56 lb revolver

You can slow down the velocity of the 45 colt and reduce your felt recoil.
This reduces your cartridge pressure a huge amount, with the consequence of blow-by and barrel leading.

Cowboy velocity loads are not at risk for blowing up guns.
 

Edited by bgavin

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Posted (edited)

A few of us have already been down this road.   Best advice I have seen here  and it has been repeated more that once is find some local SAA folks willing to help and simply shoot a 45 and a 38 loaded appropriately side by side and see what you think.   You might find what you are looking for.  You might not.

 

I wasn't able to get what I wanted from a reduced load C45S using 165gr bullets.   Sure it was a lot less recoil than a 45 Colt case would allow but it was no lwt loaded 38 let alone a  typical factory .32-20.

 

Next time I'd want to factor in what I spent on C45S brass and sourcing lwt 45 bullets.  Which I didn't do with the C45S brass or the 32-20 brass.   Eventually it might make a new pair of $400 per gun .38s  look cheap in the long run. That and the fact you'll always know that the C45S  was only a half way measure to the lwt bullets, easily available, cheap brass and much easier to reload 38s.  All with a good bit less recoil.

 

I ended up going to 32-20 which my wife was shooting long before I was.  But after reloading the 32-20 for both of us a few years and 1000s of rounds, I realized I should have just gone to 38s for myself and may even use 38 Short Colt or 38 Long Colt brass instead of 38 Special. 

 

 

 

Edited by levi littleton

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Posted (edited)

I loved to play well below the minimum chargers on revolvers and i got a pretty good load out of C45s with 3 grains TB under a 160. That gave me enough cushion for the natural trail boss variances in drops in a progressive with out ever being worried about being too light.

Realistically you can just work up your own though pretty simply since short of not putting any powder in the case you will almost always at least get out of the barrel of a 4,75 or even 5.5 revolver. Start at the minimum load, then just step down about .2 grains. Make 5 at each step, when you start seeing backed out primers, or you get keyholing, or inconsistent ingnition you've reached your floor. Move up to the step above that and call it good.

 

Another thing, since we are playing with low pressure, its gonna be dirty cause the cases wont seal the chambers effectively, and use coated bullets to avoid leading.

Edited by Juan Solo

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WHY?????????

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In my Vaquero's I'm using 4.2 grn. of Clays under a 160 grn. coated RNFP bullet in the C45S case and recoil is quite minimal with barely any muzzle flip. The brass comes out pretty clean and I get no leading in the barrel. The only time I've had issues with leading is using "hard cast" lead bullets. For me anyway---shooting at a target 5 yards away, I don't worry too much about the PSI to lead hardness issue or velocity deviation if there is any to speak of. I did start this combo with lead uncoated bullets from Missouri & Ringer and never had any issues. I haven't worried too much about a double charge as I'd have to remove the round from the loader and put it back under the powder die to double charge. I use a Dillon SDB progressive and knock on wood several times in 30+ years it has never short changed the powder or overcharged it. I just hated the filth and expense of TB powder. YMMV

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3 hours ago, levi littleton said:

A few of us have already been down this road.   Best advice I have seen here  and it has been repeated more that once is find some local SAA folks willing to help and simply shoot a 45 and a 38 loaded appropriately side by side and see what you think.   You might find what you are looking for.  You might not.

 

I wasn't able to get what I wanted from a reduced load C45S using 165gr bullets.   Sure it was a lot less recoil than a 45 Colt case would allow but it was no lwt loaded 38 let alone a  typical factory .32-20.

 

Next time I'd want to factor in what I spent on C45S brass and sourcing lwt 45 bullets.  Which I didn't do with the C45S brass or the 32-20 brass.   Eventually it might make a new pair of $400 per gun .38s  look cheap in the long run. That and the fact you'll always know that the C45S  was only a half way measure to the lwt bullets, easily available, cheap brass and much easier to reload 38s.  All with a good bit less recoil.

 

I ended up going to 32-20 which my wife was shooting long before I was.  But after reloading the 32-20 for both of us a few years and 1000s of rounds, I realized I should have just gone to 38s for myself and may even use 38 Short Colt or 38 Long Colt brass instead of 38 Special. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I noticed as an FFL, and hoping to be able to get 45spl brass much cheaper than retail, I discovered that .45spl brass isn't available through my normal distribution channels, and I can see where the cost to reload 45spl casings might push my cost up higher than going with 38spl, which is really common, and cheaper to begin with.  Good points, appreciate it!

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1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I use 5.5 grains of Trailboss behind a 200 grain RNFP bullet.

 

Recoil is insignificant.

 

Good to know...Are you using regular .45 Colt casings?

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