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travelin kid #51083

Timer Operators......

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I have noticed a trend over the last couple years, I have asked a couple other cowboys over the last couple months in parts of the midwest if they have noticed it, and they agreed with me on this matter.

Shooters holding the TO's responsible for their mistakes on a stage. It seems to be a growing trend. Due to this trend I see many unwilling to take the timer on a posse. 
Anyone else noticing  this trend?

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Thankfully I haven't seen this happen. As a TO I've experienced just the opposite.  I tend to blame myself more than the shooter.  I hope it always stays that way. 

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As someone who TOs quite often I would like to add my two cents.

As A TO I do my best to be fair and make the right calls. But I am human, and I make mistakes sometimes. I also feel that if the people I am TOing for wish it, I am happy to pass the timer to who ever wants it.

If SASS or a club is going to penalize the TO for a bad call then they needs to hire professional TOs.

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I have noticed the trend yes. Whether it’s noticed or not is directly affected by your involvement. Those involved more on the match administration side of things will hear and see it more than what can be observed on a posse. It ranks right up there with holding match directors responsible for your own personal shooting performance.  “

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51 minutes ago, travelin kid #51083 said:

I have noticed a trend over the last couple years, I have asked a couple other cowboys over the last couple months in parts of the midwest if they have noticed it, and they agreed with me on this matter.

Shooters holding the TO's responsible for their mistakes on a stage. It seems to be a growing trend. Due to this trend I see many unwilling to take the timer on a posse. 
Anyone else noticing  this trend?

Blaming others for an individual's bad choices is the politically correct thing to do.

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The first commandment is that once the first shot goes downrange, the shooter owns the stage.  The TO is responsible for the time and safety.  If I can help, I will, but for the most part I am keeping more and more quiet so I don't get into the "You helped him/her but not me."

 

I will say that stage designers should avoid P traps and overly complicated sequences.   Don't do things like having 6 shotgun targets easily visible from two locations but shoot 4 from one and 2 from the other.   Just shoot them all from one spot or position them so you have to move to the second location in order to see them so that they can be knocked down.  If the shooter loads the SG, which is allowed at the wrong location,  then the TO realizes that the shooter is in the wrong location and  yells MOVE as the shooter snaps the SG shut.  In the fog of the stage, the shooter takes a step and now has a SDQ and is mad because if the TO didn't say anything it would have be a procedural only.

 

 

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1 hour ago, travelin kid #51083 said:

I have noticed a trend over the last couple years, I have asked a couple other cowboys over the last couple months in parts of the midwest if they have noticed it, and they agreed with me on this matter.

Shooters holding the TO's responsible for their mistakes on a stage. It seems to be a growing trend. Due to this trend I see many unwilling to take the timer on a posse. 
Anyone else noticing  this trend?

 

What kind of "mistakes"?

REF: SHB p.19 re "COACHING"

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3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

What kind of "mistakes"?

REF: SHB p.19 re "COACHING"

Exactly. Procedural mistakes by the TO result in a reshoot. Safety mistakes do not. :ph34r:

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5 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

What kind of "mistakes"?

REF: SHB p.19 re "COACHING"

I had a shooter not too long ago lose track of how many pistol rounds he had fired.  As he click clicked away I told him 'you're done, rifle'. He promptly holstered a cocked pistol, picked up a DQ and got pretty mad with me. 

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32 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I had a shooter not too long ago lose track of how many pistol rounds he had fired.  As he click clicked away I told him 'you're done, rifle'. He promptly holstered a cocked pistol, picked up a DQ and got pretty mad with me. 

I have seen that happen more than once recently.....

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Yep, unfortunately, have recently seen shooter's error attempted to be blamed on TO.  (And that hard feeling even carried forward to future matches.)

 

Good luck, GJ

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Posted (edited)

Sweeps and stage design can contribute to this I believe. Combination rifle and pistol sweeps, that can be done several different ways, you try to anticipate what the shooter is going to do, and they go off the reservation with some weird mathematical way of shooting it, you get lost, the shooter gets lost, and asks you for guidance, end result, P, shooter blames the TO.

This does not happen often, but it is one example....

Another example, shooter is in a confined space / prop / building, barely enough room for the shooter to do anything let alone the TO, it can make it hard to see everything going on with the guns in play, by the time you might notice a hull in the double, or cocked pistol returned to leather, the next firearm is in play and it's too late.

Edited by travelin kid #51083
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53 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I had a shooter not too long ago lose track of how many pistol rounds he had fired.  As he click clicked away I told him 'you're done, rifle'. He promptly holstered a cocked pistol, picked up a DQ and got pretty mad with me. 

 

I try to state the facts, not tell the shooter what to do.  In this case, I'll say "You've shot 5".  It's up to the shooter to process the information and act accordingly.   

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Just now, Null N. Void said:

 

I try to state the facts, not tell the shooter what to do.  In this case, I'll say "You've shot 5".  It's up to the shooter to process the information and act accordingly.   

Same here, especially if I don't know the shooter. 

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2 hours ago, travelin kid #51083 said:

I have noticed a trend over the last couple years, I have asked a couple other cowboys over the last couple months in parts of the midwest if they have noticed it, and they agreed with me on this matter.

Shooters holding the TO's responsible for their mistakes on a stage. It seems to be a growing trend. Due to this trend I see many unwilling to take the timer on a posse. 
Anyone else noticing  this trend?

yes

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if i do get questioned, i just say, I didn't tell you to holster a cocked revolver... it's either that or we say nothing at all while the shooter is shooting

 

what does irk me,, after helping others as much as I can, and say I miss a sg target and don't realize it and no one says anything, and then says, "I'm not gonna help"  ugh!! after the stage is over,,,

 

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I know I own the stage with my first shot

 

being old and forgetful I usually ask the TO at least once a match, "Where am I?"

 

a couple of times I was told wrong--which brings me to one of my favorite sayings:  Sometimes is sucks to be me

 

Life isn't fair and I'm happy shooting--hitting stuff is a bonus

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I have the blame it on me when you mess up T-shirt.

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This has been going on for years. Stages are run quicker today. The margin for error increases with the speed of a stage. 20 years back when a really good time was 25-30 seconds it was much easier to address the shooter for corrective action. 

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Shooter picks up Shotgun, closes it, is standing in the WRONG position TO yells MOVE!!  Shooter doesn't think and moves with a loaded shotgun.  Shooter is responsible for opening the gun BEFORE they move.  Most don't.  I prefer it for the TO to keep shut.  I'll take a "P" any day over a SDQ.  There are "goods" and "Bads" to "helping."  Of course, it also doesn't help when the Peanut Gallery screams "MOOVE."

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I have just started being a TO and I really like this Posse role. It is a BIG responsibility and every one of the TO's I shoot with give it respect and seek to keep safety and flow of the Posse in mind. I have been taught by the best at RO I and II, but nothing compares to the first time as TO in a Monthly Match. That's where the other TO's and the PM come into play. Where I shoot, the PM's oversee and guide all of the Posse roles, and are quick to take someone aside and help them better understand the Spirit of the Game. I am the fortunate one to have TO's and PM's like: Assassin, Hawkeye Sam, Sixty Nine Cent Wizard, Kid Bucklin, Avery Wade, Pick, Phantom, Black Jack Ketchem, Pinewood Kid, and Blazen Vaquero. Now that is a group who keeps things on the Up and Up.

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Had a shooter request a re-shoot because I was unable to tell him which target to shoot next after clearing a malfunction.  Request denied.  

 

Haven't had any other issues like that while running the clock.  Most folks I shoot with on a regular basis are the first to own their own mistakes.  I know I am, called a P on myself that the spotters and TO had missed at our annual this year.

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I have not seen this but it frustrates me that it happens. It's a game for Pete's sake! It's not like we're competing for a scholarship or sign-on bonus. The TO is a human and a volunteer so I appreciate the fact that someone is taking on that thankless job. It's hard enough to get folks be real spotters and loading/unloading table officers without blaming someone for a mistake that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Unless it's at a state or regional match, I figure it's like the TV show, Who's Line Is It Anyway? The points don't matter.

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"A man who can smile

when things go wrong,

has thought of someone

he can blame it on".

 

..........Widder

 

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I avoided the role of TO until after I went through RO1. I watch the shooter for safety. I tend to NOT coach, since I am not watching the targets, I am watching the shooter.

If the shooter asks something and I am sure I will tell them.  If I am at all unsure of where they are "I say dunno". So far I have had no complaints about my lack of coaching.

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59 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

"A man who can smile

when things go wrong,

has thought of someone

he can blame it on".

 

..........Widder

 

Well spoken Grasshopper.

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

"A man who can smile

when things go wrong,

has thought of someone

he can blame it on".

 

..........Widder

 

 

Not always.  Some just have a good sense of humor and integrity.  Both usually learned through a bunch of bad decisions.

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Question "What target am I on?" answer from me most of the time is "Don't know, number X  just came out of the barrel." I will help the ones that I can but if I am looking at the targets then I am doing it wrong. Also, if I am anticipating what the shooter might do, then the wording is "open the gun, now move."

I also point out that where the line on the app that says "Posse with...you can put don't posse with XXXXX. My name is Tennessee Tombstone"

I can not tolerate rude behavior or a surly bartender.

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I haven't noticed a growing trend to blame the TO, but over the years there has always been that fraction of folks wanting to blame someone else. Once a gun malfunction occurs my focus goes to the safe handling of that gun and not the target order, if the shooter wants to poll the spotters that's fine by me or if I'm certain I speak up.

 

On the flip side I've noticed a trend of TO's not offering anything to the shooter, yes it's the safest position to take, but it's our job to assist them safely through the course of fire all while minimizing procedurals and safety concerns. If a shooter doesn't want help they should say so before the beep or accept the what the TO offers. If a shooter needs a nudge to get them to safely move to the next position, I'll give it. 

 

As TO's we will make mistakes, that will bother us and possibly effect our shooting.

 

Tully

 

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Luckily the pards I shoot with, and TO for, are good folks. I try and help on the stage if I can. Heck most of the monthly participants I shoot with are of the older generation and their hearing and memory just isn't what it use to be. If I make a rare mistake in helping them then they can have a re-shoot. If they mess up they can't re-shoot and they can blame me all they want to. Next stage they can find someone else to time for them. Won't hurt my feelings none...

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15 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Had a shooter request a re-shoot because I was unable to tell him which target to shoot next after clearing a malfunction.  Request denied.  

 

Haven't had any other issues like that while running the clock.  Most folks I shoot with on a regular basis are the first to own their own mistakes.  I know I am, called a P on myself that the spotters and TO had missed at our annual this year.

This just reminded me of a WBAS class I took from Curt something. Good instructor and class. He said when he has a gun malfunction, he yells something to the effect of, "such and such target next" as he proceeds to fix his gun.  He said that usually fixes it in most people's minds. I've not seen that done; but, it made sense to me.

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The times I feel bad about when I R.O., is when the shooter doesn't fire enough rounds from a particular gun, and before I can get the words out of my mouth, they've cocked the next gun.  Dang!  Then a minority of the shooters will blame me for the unfired round or MSV, (if the live round is on the carrier).  Sucks, but sometimes the shooter is just faster than my mouth!

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Well if the TO and spotters can't tell you what target to shoot next, how can they give you a P at the end of the stage?  I guess there are cases where you might end up on the wrong target. 

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If you end up on the wrong target, it's a P no matter how you got there.  

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Well if the TO and spotters can't tell you what target to shoot next, how can they give you a P at the end of the stage?  I guess there are cases where you might end up on the wrong target. 

 

Which target was shot last in the string could tell the Spotters.  Sweep the 5 targets left to right and the Shooter's 5th shot is on target #4.

 

 

When I forget I'll ask the TO.  If the TO doesn't answer quickly I'll take my best guess.

Edited by Matthew Duncan
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