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Warden Callaway

Cimarron Eliminator 8 - chapter two

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Over a year ago I bought a "new in box" trade in Cimarron Eliminator 8 in 45 Colt.  Turned out that it had problems.  But I fixed them.  I like the gun. The 60 Army grip frame and the Fleur-de-les checkering really appealed to me. I thought if I ran across a second used one I'd buy it.  None have shown up. 

 

But recently I was told Cimarron had some in discontinued stock.   After doing some checking with my best local gunshops,  I ordered one.  This was last Thursday.  It came in yesterday afternoon.  Picked it up today. 

 

1769465977_CimarronEliminator8Sept2019.jpg.782c8820ba8e893e590360e3b8895fb2.jpg

 

Now I have a pair. (One in foreground is the new one)  

 

I just shot it 15 rounds.  Shoots about 4" low at 10 steps with the load I'm shooting.   But windage is right on. All went BANG. 

 

Action looks like it's timed properly and otherwise tight.  

 

The ejector rod tube slot is very rough.  I'll take the gun apart and clean up the burrs. 

 

Off to a good start. 

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Good luck.

 

I have a pair in .45 Colt that were ordered at the SHOT Show prior to release.

 

Never shot in a match.  Only had once cylinder put through each gun before sending them back to Cimarron ON MY DIME to have them fixed.

 

They've been in the safe ever since.  Didn't even try to test fire them when they came back.

 

Also had a pair in .357.  Had three 'smiths try to work on them.  They never were right.  Sold them to a local guy that wanted something to plink with for a major loss.

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2 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

Good luck.

 

I hear ya.  The first one was a mess.  I did a lot of work on the action and even turned the barrel to correct windage.  

 

I think I may be ok with this one.  

 

I did a lot of reading on this model as I worked on the first one.  Two testimonies.  Some people had absolutely no problems and shot them a lot. Others were in your camp and had lots of problems. 

 

I think they now have the same gun with a new name (El Malo 2?) and a standard hammer distance to full cock.  Maybe the short stroke action is more difficult to get right?  May have had more than one person putting them together?   

 

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Looks nice!! 

They must have found a big box somewhere and flushed them out ... 

I see Buds shows some in stock in 45 and 357 ... (if they are the same guns ... I can't tell for sure .. many variations ... grip/barrel etc) ... 

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/719008474/cimarron+eliminator+revolver+8+475\"+oct+45+lc+lwh+army+ck+aj

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/415004343/cimarron+pietta+eliminator+8+357+mag+38spl+475+low+w

 

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3 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Looks nice!! 

They must have found a big box somewhere and flushed them out ... 

I see Buds shows some in stock in 45 and 357 ... (if they are the same guns ... I can't tell for sure .. many variations ... grip/barrel etc) ... 

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/719008474/cimarron+eliminator+revolver+8+475\"+oct+45+lc+lwh+army+ck+aj

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/415004343/cimarron+pietta+eliminator+8+357+mag+38spl+475+low+w

 

That's them.

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Here's a pair of El Malos. These have a coil /coil torsion sprung action, a "packed" frame (full of Mobil 1 grease) and just had an action shield installed.

20190926_143942.jpg

20190926_143921.jpg

 

The action shield keeps any debris out of the action and gives the grease a physical "boundary".  (A big plus on C&B revolvers)

IMG_20180710_102844.jpg

 

A couple of other features are the hardened and colored screws and the " hang on" notch cut in the base pin. That feature allows you to pull the pin until it stops but it stays in the frame rather than you holding a pin in one hand, a gun in the other, and a falling cylinder!

 

Mike

Edited by 45 Dragoon

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I won't say I'll never do business with Bud's Guns again but ....

 

My local gunshop guy bought directly from Cimarron.  All things considered,  it was less of a pain and lower price. 

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15 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

I won't say I'll never do business with Bud's Guns again but ....

 

My local gunshop guy bought directly from Cimarron.  All things considered,  it was less of a pain and lower price. 

If Buds has a few others probably do as well. I have no particular affection for Buds ... just checking to see if they were the same gun.

... but ... I am really curious to know if they will fit in the same holster as a regular SAA ... is the octagon barrel is a consideration in that re-guard?? 

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39 minutes ago, 45 Dragoon said:

Here's a pair of El Malos. These have a coil /coil torsion sprung action, a "packed" frame (full of Mobil 1 grease) and just had an action shield installed.

20190926_143942.jpg

20190926_143921.jpg

 

The action shield keeps any debris out of the action and gives the grease a physical "boundary".  (A big plus on C&B revolvers)

IMG_20180710_102844.jpg

What debris gets in the action of a cartridge gun?

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7 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

If Buds has a few others probably do as well. I have no particular affection for Buds ... just checking to see if they were the same gun.

... but ... I am really curious to know if they will fit in the same holster as a regular SAA ... is the octagon barrel is a consideration in that re-guard?? 

 

Bud's.   A lot of the online order outfits are drawing from one inventory of guns that may be anywhere. It's called spider inventory.   In two instances I've been assured the gun I ordered was in their possession and would be shipped right out.  Waited about a week before it showed received at their shipping department.  Another week to get it. 

 

The Taylor's Smoke Wagons I ordered from Buds. A dozen other places also listed having one gun in stock.  As soon as I placed my order with Buds, all others went stock out.

 

Local gun shop guy called Cimarron and ordered the gun late on Thursday.   Got it yesterday.   I didn't have to get a money order or pay credit card fees.  I looked the gun over and saw no problems before I paid.  He charged $25 over his actual cost - the same as he charges for an FFL transfer.  

 

I've used the octagon barrel Eliminator in my holsters made for 5.5" Uberti.  Can't say that they will work in every case. 

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55 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

What debris gets in the action of a cartridge gun?

 

Well, on cartridge guns, it's more about keeping a "lid"  on the grease in the frame (although I do have some customers that shoot in desert areas that get windy at times and the inside of a revolver isn't immune .  .  .  ).  This particular pair of revolvers are shot with B.P. loads and the owner liked the idea of sealing the action up just as a precaution. He never has to open it up.

  Of course, on cap guns, cap frags will stay out of the action and will be presented each time the hammer is drawn back which allows you to dump the fragments out (on cap guns, the shield has a "curl" at the end that pulls any debris back for disposal).

 

I know the modern thinking is little or no lube in a revolver is "best" as the lube will collect burned/unburned powder and cause problems. Cap guns are dirty by nature and a packed frame keeps fouling suspended and allows the action to stay lubed. This would also do the same in a modern revolver as well.  An Action Shield works extremely well at keeping fouling from blowback down the hammer slot as well as fragments out of the action. 

  It's definitely a worthwhile option to keep an action clean, lubed, and maintenance free!

 

Mike

Edited by 45 Dragoon

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My 2 eliminators required a bit of work with one being out of time a bit. Once I got that cleaned up they've been excellent work horses. Probably a couple thousand out of each and not a single misfire even.

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1 hour ago, LostVaquero said:

Are these different then the Alcimista IIIs?

 

Three things I see different,  grips frame trigger guard is steel instead of brass, the grips checkering pattern is fleur-de-lis,  and they are short stroked.   

 

I've only seen pictures of the Alchimista but the hammer spur looks a bit different.   Also,  the front edge of the cylinder looks to be more heavily beveled. 

 

209232374_cylinderchamferAug2018.jpg.3a692836a64b6f8b46188a2f16248260.jpg

 

They are supposed to be custom tuned.  I've not been inside the new one.  But the one I bought new in box trade in had been "messed with".  

 

 

 

Edited by Warden Callaway

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9 hours ago, 45 Dragoon said:

 

Well, on cartridge guns, it's more about keeping a "lid"  on the grease in the frame (although I do have some customers that shoot in desert areas that get windy at times and the inside of a revolver isn't immune .  .  .  ).  This particular pair of revolvers are shot with B.P. loads and the owner liked the idea of sealing the action up just as a precaution. He never has to open it up.

  Of course, on cap guns, cap frags will stay out of the action and will be presented each time the hammer is drawn back which allows you to dump the fragments out (on cap guns, the shield has a "curl" at the end that pulls any debris back for disposal).

 

I know the modern thinking is little or no lube in a revolver is "best" as the lube will collect burned/unburned powder and cause problems. Cap guns are dirty by nature and a packed frame keeps fouling suspended and allows the action to stay lubed. This would also do the same in a modern revolver as well.  An Action Shield works extremely well at keeping fouling from blowback down the hammer slot as well as fragments out of the action. 

  It's definitely a worthwhile option to keep an action clean, lubed, and maintenance free!

 

Mike

Why do you want to keep the action "packed" with grease? As the gun heats up from firing, wouldn't it come oozing out by the trigger and around the trigger guard and grip frame? Do you really need the action full of grease? I understand keeping cap pieces out of a C&B gun but on a cartridge revolver it seems kind of odd. And if the owner of a revolver fired with BP "never has to open it up"? That's ok? May get a little nasty after a while... even without fouling getting inside.

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2 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Why do you want to keep the action "packed" with grease? As the gun heats up from firing, wouldn't it come oozing out by the trigger and around the trigger guard and grip frame? Do you really need the action full of grease? I understand keeping cap pieces out of a C&B gun but on a cartridge revolver it seems kind of odd. And if the owner of a revolver fired with BP "never has to open it up"? That's ok? May get a little nasty after a while... even without fouling getting inside.

I agree:huh:, I shoot nothing but real BP, never had any fouling or fragments get through the top of the hammer slot:wacko:. Ballistol and Murphy's mix keeps any fouling in an oily suspended state. Where would these fragments come from??

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2 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Why do you want to keep the action "packed" with grease? As the gun heats up from firing, wouldn't it come oozing out by the trigger and around the trigger guard and grip frame? Do you really need the action full of grease? I understand keeping cap pieces out of a C&B gun but on a cartridge revolver it seems kind of odd. And if the owner of a revolver fired with BP "never has to open it up"? That's ok? May get a little nasty after a while... even without fouling getting inside.

 

  Good question. The frame is packed with Mobil 1  grease which is stable to about 350 deg.  Not gonna get runny on ya. 

  Do you " need" to pack the frame? No, but if there is something there already, there's no room for anything else. It works well with cap guns so no reason it wouldn't do the same in a cartridge gun.  As the action is cycled, the grease will "migrate" in the frame. Parts will stay lubed, any burnt / unburnt powder will be suspended rather than collect to cause problems. It may get dirty over a long period of time and if you see fit, swab out what you can with a Q-tip and replace with new grease. The cap guns I've done for competition have gone at least a year without cleaning the action so, inspect cap guns once a year, cartridge guns (shooting bp) the same. Smokless guns, every 2 or 3 yrs.  It cuts cleaning chores considerably!!

 

By the way, this practice isn't new. Folks were doing this when open top revolvers were contemporary. They didn't have synthetic grease though!  :)

 

Mike

Edited by 45 Dragoon

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512959732_Eliminator810shotsSept2019.jpg.50b8375631c0f6946d3420aa20ed3ad1.jpg

 

First 10 shots from 10 steps.  Happy.   160 grain bullet so not concerned with elevation. 

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Shot the Eliminator 8s in a match today.   I started shooting well and shot first 4 stages clean (but got a P on 3rd stage for shooting shotgun targets out of order.)  Lost it on stage 5 and missed 4 rifle targets.  But I shot the pistol targets clean on a difficult course. 

 

 

Like shooting tombstone targets through jail bar. 

 

I have not taken the new gun apart, wanting to see if it was match ready. The new gun had a failure to fire on stage 6.  The first Eliminator 8 was ok to start with but then started to have FTF.  Nothing worked until I replaced the hammer spring with a Wolff.  I'll take this one apart and see what's going on.

 

 

 

 

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I broke the new Cimarron Eliminator 8 open this morning and spilled its guts out.  All looked good. The lower hammer, hand and top of trigger were covered with black grease.  I couldn't see any blatant areas of scuffing.  Parts looked polished enough. Looks like the bolt drops into the cylinder stop notches correctly. 

 

It does have the skimpy hammer spring that looks like a Lee spring.  I left it in for now.

 

1306603232_CimEliminator8insidesOct52019.jpg.e70dad3f7a2df3c879a475c08f23d708.jpg

 

I ran a hone around inside the frame just because.  I really didn't see any areas that had burrs.  The edges of the frame were razor sharp inside and out. I gave each a stroke with the hone. Not enough to see the difference but I could feel the difference.  

 

While I was at it, I shortened the base pin so it could be seated to full depth.  I also knocked out the cylinder bushing and honed it so it slipped in and out.  I honed bushing hole in the cylinder.  I honed the base pin and lapped the inside of the cylinder bushing with it.

 

In all, I'm pleased with this gun.  Only two areas really needed work. The ejector rod slot in the housing was very rough.  Almost unusable.  It took a lot of filling and honing to make it functional.  The base pin latch was nearly as rough.  But over use,  it has freed up a lot. 

 

Odd thing.  The Eliminator 8 was discontinued several years ago.  But the front of the frame is stamped 2018. The box has 2 labels over the original label.  I'm tempted to steam the labels off to see what's under them. 

 

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A lot of the "factory tuned" aspect of factory offerings is aftermarket springs. There's still a lot of "tuning" to be done on those revolvers. What does the cam side of the hammer look like?

 

Mike

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18 hours ago, 45 Dragoon said:

A lot of the "factory tuned" aspect of factory offerings is aftermarket springs. There's still a lot of "tuning" to be done on those revolvers. What does the cam side of the hammer look like?

 

Mike

 

I hear you on the factory tuned.  Maybe some have been genuinely well done.  But in my experience I feel like I'm paying $150 for $20 worth of springs.   In the case of these Eleminator 8s, I got the 1860 grip frames with attractive checkered grips and lowered hammers. I can't see much value added in short stroke or octagon barrel. 

 

I didn't take a picture of the cam side of the hammer.  But it looked good and I didn't have a reason to reprofile or polish it.  

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Gottcha. 

  A lot of times (most of the time)  a ftf  can be the result of the relationship between the cam and the bolt arm (especially when reduced main springs are used). The height of the cam, angle of the cam, transition onto the cam surface (during hammer fall), bolt arm surface and the thickness of the bolt arm. Add to that the hand spring tension (flats .  . , not so much with coil and plunger setups) and the possibility of the front end of the mainspring rubbing the hammer. 

    Also, often overlooked is "cheek squeeze". Lots of folks don't realize (or maybe I just think they don't) that tightening the hammer screw will distort the frame somewhat. Along the same line, don't forget the ears of the backstrap. Many times " cheek squeeze " can be found "between the ears" as well!! It's sneaky!!

  Good luck in your search .  .  .  

 

Mike

 

 

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10 minutes ago, 45 Dragoon said:

Gottcha. 

  A lot of times (most of the time)  a ftf  can be the result of the relationship between the cam and the bolt arm (especially when reduced main springs are used). The height of the cam, angle of the cam, transition onto the cam surface (during hammer fall), bolt arm surface and the thickness of the bolt arm. Add to that the hand spring tension (flats .  . , not so much with coil and plunger setups) and the possibility of the front end of the mainspring rubbing the hammer. 

    Also, often overlooked is "cheek squeeze". Lots of folks don't realize (or maybe I just think they don't) that tightening the hammer screw will distort the frame somewhat. Along the same line, don't forget the ears of the backstrap. Many times " cheek squeeze " can be found "between the ears" as well!! It's sneaky!!

  Good luck in your search .  .  .  

 

Mike

 

 

 

Yeap, One test I do is assembly the action except for the hammer spring.  I cock the hammer and lower it and feel the bolt leg spring back over the cam.  It's amazing how much drag on the hammer fall can be if the cam is not shaped right, rough, or bolt leg is too thick or not polished or the sides of the bolt are rough or the walls inside the frame is rough or, or, or...   The "feel" of the bolt leg over the cam seems to be plenty ok on this gun. While alarmed by one FTF in first 100 rounds,  I'm not panicked yet. 

 

The other Eliminator got to where it had FTF about 1 in 5. I went through everything. I put 2 .002 cylinder bushing shims in it to tighten up the excessive endshake.   Even held councils with friends. After all that, I changed out the hammer spring and that fixed it.

 

485434652_PiettaspringSept2018.jpg.4eb81eb53264cdb0a99ec9b20abc221f.jpg

 

Spring on right is what came on the gun. Spring on left is a Pietta 51 Navy spring.  The center sping is the Wolff reduced power hammer spring that I installed. (I had to shorten the top end and enlarge the hole a little) 

 

But,  I think that the short stroke action could require more spring strength than a standard stroke action. By shortening the length of fall, it also reduces the striking force.  Kind of like using a carpenters hammer with a long swing compaired to using a short swing. 

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Absolutely right! I missed the part about being short stroked.  It definitely takes more power to operate that setup for the reasons you say! The "Malo's" I posted pics of are not short stroked.  Sounds like you got it  figured out!! 

 

Mike

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On 9/26/2019 at 10:28 PM, Juan Solo said:

My 2 eliminators required a bit of work with one being out of time a bit. Once I got that cleaned up they've been excellent work horses. Probably a couple thousand out of each and not a single misfire even.

 

Here is where I stretched the hand to correct cylinder rotation timing on the first Eliminator. 

 

 

 

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Yap, I have to stretch the hand on almost all the S.A.s I work on!  Installing a bolt block removes the lateral movement of the bolt head which in turn slightly increases the "length of cycle" (no more slop!!). 

  As far as the bolt setup goes, my test for bolt "reset" (on race guns for sure) is barrel down on the bench and with only hammer and bolt installed - the bolt must reset with unassisted hammer fall.  That gives great "insurance" against a ftf situation, even with a light mainspring (4 lb actual hammer draw is my "standard" setup on cap guns, low 3's for cartridge).

 

Mike

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59b4dd31cc4ba_SmokeWagonDcamSep2017.jpg.0fb8e7d98e0925515870c2c7641fce9c.jpg

 

Here is a hammer cam on a new Smokewagon Deluxe.  The slope cut on the low side is so abrupt it took considerable effort just to get the bolt leg to snap over and up on the second slope.  I used a diamond crusted needle file and lowered the second slope until the lower slope was gone. Then polished. Worked much better. 

 

59b4e7c2a927c_ColtDcamSept2017.jpg.9a49e7610eb57698b0e9470f572589e4.jpg

 

Here is the hammer cam on a worn out Colt second generation.  (Note the notches are in bad shape.)  The cam is worn but it shows a dramatic difference between the two.  

 

I had the Colt hammer rebuilt by Bill Fuchs at Spring Creek Armory in Ten Sleep Wyoming.  Besides welding and recutting the sear notches, he replaced the cam.

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I shot the Eliminator 8s in a match yesterday and had 4 failures to fire. As I was shooting Josey Wales with 5 pistols using the same ammo - C45S loaded with BlackMZ  -, all the other guns (two Uberti Cattleman and a Colt SAA) fired off every time so I'm going to rule out the ammo. 

 

I'll reexamine the action but I'll likely end up installing a heavier hammer spring. 

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4 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

I shot the Eliminator 8s in a match yesterday and had 4 failures to fire. As I was shooting Josey Wales with 5 pistols using the same ammo - C45S loaded with BlackMZ  -, all the other guns (two Uberti Cattleman and a Colt SAA) fired off every time so I'm going to rule out the ammo. 

 

I'll reexamine the action but I'll likely end up installing a heavier hammer spring. 

This is why mine are still unfired since being returned from Cimarron. 

 

I want to like them but don't want to pour more money into them. 

 

As the internals are not the same as a standard SAA, I wouldn't even know who to send them to. 

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24 minutes ago, LostVaquero said:

Sure hope the similar Alchimista IIIs work better.

 

I'm sure they will be fine.  I'm thinking the Eliminator offering with short stroke and over the edge weak spring is the problem.  I have too many "get ready for winter" chores to get done to work on it now. 

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