Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Howdy to the wire .......Had an interesting discussion at a shoot the other day.. Should the hammer hit the nipple or just stop a flys breath away from hitting the nipple thus hitting a cap when installed ? Nipples have a tapered thread therefore can they be backed out if you were having light hammer hits & further could a small copper / leather washer be installed to take up the gap ? When an original ROA hammer has the low profile SBH thumb spur alteration welded on is it possible for the steel to twist thus taking away the square face of the hammer ? Interested to know your comments..thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Hey Painted Mohawk: Hope you guys are doing well. As to your questions, Should the hammer hit the nipple or just stop a flys breath away from hitting the nipple thus hitting a cap when installed ? Yes, that is the way it is supposed to be. If I remember correctly, Ruger published on this a number of years ago. I do not remember where I saw it. Nipples have a tapered thread therefore can they be backed out if you were having light hammer hits & further could a small copper / leather washer be installed to take up the gap ? Yes, before the production quality of Piettas improved, this was routinely done. You could buy little copper washers from the hobby store, for between the glo-plug and the cylinder on a model air plane engine. However, they stopped making them. I then went to using several wraps of thin copper electrical wire. If I remember correctly, Hellgate published on this many years ago, but I don't remember where. I don't know about the 3rd question.I hope you have a good week! --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 Posted September 23, 2019 Author Share Posted September 23, 2019 Thanks Dawg I'd like to get a feeler gauge in there to check as it's very hard to see the hammer to nipple. Have fun at High Noon..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 When I set up my backup 1860 I polished the hammer face till I could just pull a strip of paper out when the hammer was fully down. So far it is not failed to fire any caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said: When I set up my backup 1860 I polished the hammer face till I could just pull a strip of paper out when the hammer was fully down. So far it is not failed to fire any caps. A person might be able to use a strip of carbon paper between the nipple and the hammer face to see where the hammer face is making contact. Haven’t tried it myself, just riffing on Sedalia Dave’s post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 Just now, J-BAR #18287 said: A person might be able to use a strip of carbon paper between the nipple and the hammer face to see where the hammer face is making contact. Haven’t tried it myself, just riffing on Sedalia Dave’s post. Never thought of that. Would be an excellent way of ensuring the hammer face was square to the nipples. Would also identify an improperly drilled hole in a cylinder. Great Idea J-BAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 What pistols are these nipples going into, PM? If I remember correctly, my Pietta's didn't have tapered threads. The Slix Shot replacement nipples are not tapered threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: Never thought of that. Would be an excellent way of ensuring the hammer face was square to the nipples. Would also identify an improperly drilled hole in a cylinder. Great Idea J-BAR Well, maybe. I have some carbon paper so I tried it on my ROA and could not get the carbon paper to leave a mark on the hammer. The paper was trapped with the hammer all the way down so I knew there was contact. I cut a 1/4 inch wide piece of paper and inserted it over the nipple after cocking the hammer. Then I painted the nose of the hammer liberally with a red Sharpie and let the hammer down before the ink dried: got the result pictured. I’m using stock hammers and Treso nipples and I am not interested in dry firing these, so I’m going to leave it alone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted September 23, 2019 Share Posted September 23, 2019 I found Hellgate's article in my files. There is lots of good information in here for everyone at all levels of cap gun experience. Thanks Hellgate! --Dawg DEBUGGING COLT CAP & BALL REVOLVERS FOR COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING by Hellgate Tye #3302 My very first "real" gun was an 1861 .36cal Colt Navy I got when I was in high school that still shoots like a charm. I just happen to like the looks of a Colt and don’t have anything against the Remingtons other than I’ve never owned one and rarely shot any. When I first started CAS I used it to shoot the "modern" category because my other pistol was my grandad’s flat top .357 Blackhawk. I found out real fast why the old timers switched to fixed ammo and to smokeless powders. However, the old timers were SERIOUS when they shot at something and staked their life on their equipment. When I want to be serious I’ll use my AR-15 but for SASS I just want to have a good time and enjoy life shooting with a bunch of similar types who don’t mind me smokin' and smellin' up the range. Too many shooters are scared off using cap & ball guns because of all the foibles of black powder itself and unreliability of percussion firearms. I’m hoping that some of the things I’ve learned from "competitive" cap & balling will help others to dig theirs out of the back of the gun safe or even go buy a couple of them to get started.I have found them to be quite reliable once you get a few "bugs" out. They are an inexpensive way to get into Cowboy Action Shooting. Decent revolvers can be had for as little as $100 mail order for those like me that are too cheap to spend a small fortune. I will organize my discussion of making your Colt cap & ball (C&B) revolver run smoothly by talking about the various parts I’ve had to deal with that have fouled up my shooting a stage. I am experienced but not an expert and will bow humbly to the gunsmiths and others who know more than I. FRAME-Brass frames have been known to "shoot loose"especially with heavy loads but I have known of others that never had any problems. I think that case hardened steel is preferable to hold things together. Loose alignment pins can be snugged up by tapping a small dent with a center punch next to the hole they slipped out of then tapping them back in place on the frame. The mainspring can be lightened to smooth the action by filing or grinding the edges to narrow it down. Be careful, too light of a spring can cause some major problems: (1) Hammer blowback will let caps fall down between the hammer and frame and the rest of the caps won’t fire [5 seconds each and you’re standing there cussing and trying to clear a loaded gun under the clock] (2) Fouling buildup may slow hammer fall and not hit the caps hard enough [more misses] (3) The point of impact could change if there is a major difference in spring tension [still more misses] (4) Too light of a trigger pull can be a safety problem [DQ or worse]. SIGHTS-Colt C&B’s frequently don’t shoot to point of aim ( three of the five I’ve had shot to the right). All of mine shot high (no problem). I look at the factory sighting notch as merely a reference point. If the gun shoots high you can cut (with a Dremel tool) or file the sighting notch in the hammer deeper. To lower the point of impact further you can grind the top of the hammer down and deepen the notch accordingly. Plan on ruining a file or two on the case hardening. You can always adopt the six o’clock hold if you are anywhere close. If the gun shoots low you may want to use conical balls since they are heavier than the round balls ( around 200grs vs 140 for .44s and 130gr vs 81gr in the .36) and impact about 2" higher at 10-15 yds. You could take a little off the front sight but there is not much to work with. If the gun shoots wide it gets a little trickier. What I have done is to cut (with a file or Dremel) the sighting notch off center to the appropriate side. If the cut is too far over I just fill in the notch with acid core solder and with a flat jewelers file cut a new notch. The solder can be easily filed to shape and darkened with touch up bluing. The front sight can be filed on one side to move the point of impact over a little. Check for burrs on the barrel wedge slot. BARREL-The loading lever latch may not hold during recoil dropping the rammer into the cylinder and freezing up the works. This will happen the first time you take the gun to try it out or not at all. A little filing of the bevel to allow a deeper mating of the latch and barrel catch will prevent the loading lever from ever dropping again. The wedge may be replaced with an aftermarket one if it wears and can’t be driven in far enough to narrow the cylinder gap adequately. If the cylinder gap becomes way too wide you may have the cylinder pin shooting loose and it is time for a new gun or a gun smith. Burrs on the wedge slot may cause misalignment of the barrel to the frame and contribute to shooting off point of aim. They can be filed off but if the gun shoots straight, leave them be! NIPPLES- If the caps fit snugly, all cylinders fire, and the caps don’t get blown back then leave them alone! Buy a variety of caps until you find what brand gives a snug fit. I borrowed a Remington from a friend during a match and all four remaining caps fell off with the first shot (I think that’s called four misses). Don’t waste your time pinching caps to make them fit; get the right size. There are too many other things to keep track of during a match. If one chamber doesn’t always fire you can make a shim out of fine copper or other soft small wire bent into a circle and pounded flat like a small thin washer and placed under the nipple where it seats in the cylinder. That will raise it a few thousandths to where it will fire. When a cap falls between the hammer and frame (the gun goes "clunk" and you go nuts) you are getting blowback of the hammer. There are 3 causes I have identified: the hammer fall is too light, the flash hole in the nipple is too big or the load is too heavy. Get a stronger mainspring, replace the nipples, or use a lighter charge and/or bullet(no more conicals). I have replaced the nipples in all my pistols with Uncle Mike’s nipples. They are stainless, have smaller flash holes, and the #10 Remington caps I use snug up beautifully on them. Thread sizes are 6x.75mm and 12x28 depending on the make of pistol. Ruger Old Army replacement nipples are 12x28 and the other Uncle Mike’s revolver replacement nipples are 6x.75. Prior to a match run a nipple pick through each flash hole after cleaning oil out of the chambers before loading. CYLINDER-If you have calipers, measure the inside diameter of the chambers. If one is off then mark that one as the empty chamber that you don’t load. Or you can set up six targets and shoot from a rest into each target from the same chamber several times to see which cylinder groups the worst and mark that one as the empty (6th) chamber. I use 1 or 2 dots of fingernail polish or enamel touch up paint to indicate which cylinder to not load. You could also just take the nipple out to mark it but I would hate to try to scramble for a spare if a stage called for "shoot five and reload and shoot a sixth". Marking the 6th chamber takes away one more thing I have to remember (like "did I put powder in this one or not? Oh well, too late now!") Get an in-line capper for those stages where you do a "reload" by merely capping the second charged (with powder and ball) revolver. The capper goes faster than using a cartridge gun (your ONLY advantage with a C&B!!). Remingtons have too small of nipple cutouts for a capper to be used and you must fumble with loose caps under the clock. FOULING- Pyrodex or Black Mag powders probably foul less but since I havn’t shot either in my C&B’s I will let others make the call. Even when using an under the ball lubricating wad, I put an over the ball lube in each chamber. This keeps the cylinder face fouling soft as it blows out of the gap and prevents cylinder binding against the barrel. Depending on the temperature I use different chamber greases; cool/cold temp=GOOP or other lanolin based hand cleaner, fair/warm=Crisco, hot=1000 Plus or Wonder Lube. Plastic 12-20cc syringes (though not very "period") help in filling the chambers. I sometimes spread a little black powder lube on the face of the cylinder to wipe off fouling if time permits between stages. I use the heaviest grease I can find (Lubriplate) on the cylinder pin. It keeps fouling from being blown in between the cylinder and the pin thus slowing or stopping cylinder rotation. Don’t get too tight of a cylinder gap or fouling will stop the cylinder from turning. Conical balls, under ball wads and over ball lube all keep barrel fouling to a minimum. A rag to wipe your hands and gun grips off after loading helps in cleanup and prevents a slippery gun in rainy weather (yes, us Orygun Rangers still shoot when it is only raining "lightly"). BULLETS-If your club uses ringers or allows a hit (without falling) to count then a .36 cal Navy is fine. If fallers are used then the 80-82 gr ball of a .36 isn’t going to work. LEE makes a conical 130gr bullet mold in .36 cal that packs more punch and might work. I have found that .44 cal round ball works fine for fallers and the conical ball molds throw 200-220 gr bullets that knock down anything you hit right. MODELS & FIT- The "Navies" (1851 & 1861) have smaller grips, 7 1/2" barrels and can be had in both .36 and (historically incorrect) .44 cals. The Army, Dragoon and Walkers are all .44cal and have larger grips. The Dragoons and Walker are "horse pistols" that are noticeably heavier but throw more powder and smoke than the other "belt pistols" designed to be carried on the person. Don’t let all these things that can go wrong with a C&B discourage you from giving them a try. Figure that you aren’t going to break any speed records but you’ll have a whole lot more fun than anyone else at the match as long as you keep that smoke wagon turnin’. After a short while you sort of get a rhythm in loading that can be, shall we say, meditative. Think of all the time you will save not having to process your brass plus you’ve got a free reloading outfit built onto each gun! You’ll also grow to appreciate why Wild Bill Hickock carefully cleaned, oiled, and reloaded his two "Navies"on a frequent basis. You can bet he took the time to do some "debugging" too. (end) Dropped caps: Before you go getting alot of work done on your gun, try a few other things first. (However the Frank Leman makeover works. Colt shoulda done it 150 years ago.) Capguards (plastic rings to put around the caps to prevent splitting) would be one more thing to drop into the action to screw things up. At least the caps can get flattened out better than the plastic rings. You are either getting blowback of the caps or your hammer is lifting them off the nipple and they're dropping into the action. Here are some things to try: 1) Stone the rough spots on the hammer face and the safety cutout a little bit to take away sharp edges that catch the cap and pull it off the nipple where it gets tipped off when wings of the cap catch on the frame cutout and the cap falls off the hammer face into the "works"as it is cocked. Check the length of the nipples; maybe one is high and scores the hammer face and creates the rough spots. 2) Shoot lighter loads. (less powder, less lead, or a coarser powder i.e. ffg) to lower pressure [and therefore backthrust] on the cap & hammer face. 3) Get a heavier mainspring to keep the hammer down onto the nipple. ("tuning" of a SA usually includes lightening the mainspring but that allows the hammer to be blown back with the spent cap and dropping the cap under the hammer). The heavy original spring is strong for a reason (to keep the hammer down and whack through fouling to explode the caps). 4) Replace any cap with a flashole larger than the rest, don't load that chamber (designate it the "open" chamber) or replace them all. A larger flash hole will also add to the jet of flame coming out the back of the nipple to blow the cap off. If you do all these things and you are still having problems then I'm outa advice. They've worked for me quite well so far on alotta different Colt C&Bs. Hellgate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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