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Phantom, SASS #54973

The "CONE OF SAFETY"...

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BJZ, I was wrong all those years ago.

 

We should have adopted the idea...

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

BJZ, I was wrong all those years ago.

 

We should have adopted the idea...

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

I totally agree.  (Oh crap, I just agreed with Phantom :lol:

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The premise was a good idea. The name, "Cone of Safety", killed it before it had a chance. 

I think I know the backstory Allie. The shooter needs room to manipulate the stage safely, without being called for breaking the 170, regardless if it's a cross draw or strong side. If there was a rule giving the shooter, just guesstimating, 5 feet, except for the TO that's directly behind the shooter. There would be less guessing whether the shooter broke the 170 or not. If a counter is crowding the line and right next to the shooter they are going to see things differently than if they were 5 feet behind the shooter. I've seen hard asses call 170 violations on shooters just because the are using cross draw holsters and they don't call the strong side shooters when they miss their holsters and point the pistol behind them which appears to be much more dangerous than the cross draw. Never have I seen a strong side shooter get called for missing a holster and breaking the 170. By giving the shooter 5 feet of room and forcing the spotters to call only blatant violations it would make it

easier to call a real 170 violation than someone guessing they saw an infraction because they were too close to the firing line. Give the shooter some room.

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No real backstory.

 

He was trying to make it so that folks can safely holster with a little wiggle room on the 180 rule.

 

Folks freaked out. Were all worried that shooters were going to shoot TO's in the foot... All sorts of stuff.

 

But the fact still remains that people break the 180 ALL THE TIME during holstering and it never gets called.

 

And I don't want to hear "well just make the call". If I did for every time the 180 is broken, I would be banned from every club. 

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I would be banned from every club

How many do you have left. 

The Devil made me do it. 

U always tell it like it is and I admire you for that.

Hells Comin 

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8 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

How many do you have left. 

The Devil made me do it. 

U always tell it like it is and I admire you for that.

Hells Comin 

 

Well, he had none left in California or Texas..... :o

 

The verdict is still out on his present area..... :lol:

 

Sorri Phantomborg, I couldn't resist..... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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This has been discussed before.  There are exceptions to the 170 rule.  Holstering a revolver into a  straight hang holster is one of them.  Even if one misses and gets it on the second or third try, it's still OK so long as the gun is going straight down.  No one is violating a rule and the TO is not ignoring a safety issue.

 

 We don't have a sport if we can't holster revolvers into straight hang holsters.  

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21 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

This has been discussed before.  There are exceptions to the 170 rule.  Holstering a revolver into a  straight hang holster is one of them.  Even if one misses and gets it on the second or third try, it's still OK so long as the gun is going straight down.  No one is violating a rule and the TO is not ignoring a safety issue.

 

 We don't have a sport if we can't holster revolvers into straight hang holsters.  

What do you call, if anything, when the gun misses the holster and goes behind it, effectively pointing backwards, behind the shooter? 

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16 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

What do you call, if anything, when the gun misses the holster and goes behind it, effectively pointing backwards, behind the shooter? 

 

SDQ.

 

Quote

- Any firearm that breaks the 170° safety rule will result in a Stage Disqualification.   

SHB p.3

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add reference
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Page 18 of Shooters Manual

 

170 Degree Rule

 

NOTE: An obvious exception to this rule exists, where the shooter is given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from approved, legal holsters without penalty. Further exception is given when retrieving and returning vertically staged double barrel shotguns without penalty.

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The exception to the 170° rule (REF: SHB p.3) does NOT allow pointing an unholstered revolver uprange at any time.

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1 hour ago, Null N. Void said:

This has been discussed before.  There are exceptions to the 170 rule.  Holstering a revolver into a  straight hang holster is one of them.  Even if one misses and gets it on the second or third try, it's still OK so long as the gun is going straight down.  No one is violating a rule and the TO is not ignoring a safety issue.

 

 We don't have a sport if we can't holster revolvers into straight hang holsters.  

You're wrong.

 

And it's not just the missing off the straight draw holsters.

 

Most xdraw folks transition to their weak hand and then point the revolver towards them as they are reholstering. 

 

How many folks call that one??

 

Good luck!!

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my grief is with crotch holsters,, basicly two crossdraw holsters,,, NO one will make a call on them, even if someone say is moving to their right and draws or holsters the left revolver while turned perpendicular to the firing line,,,  

 

so yes, the rule needs changed now,, or enforce the existing rule for all holsters

 

and I took a LOT of grief while on the ROC when I was the only one that came out agaisnst the Cone way back when....

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12 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

my grief is with crotch holsters,, basicly two crossdraw holsters,,, NO one will make a call on them, even if someone say is moving to their right and draws or holsters the left revolver while turned perpendicular to the firing line,,,  

 

so yes, the rule needs changed now,, or enforce the existing rule for all holsters

 

and I took a LOT of grief while on the ROC when I was the only one that came out agaisnst the Cone way back when....

No one is calling ANYONE on violations...that's the problem...kind of.

 

If you DO call them, yer screwed!

 

Why?

 

Because they are usually very minor angular violations. So you will be ostracized. 

 

And I don't want to hear from the WIRE yahoos that will try and sound soooo tough about how they will always make the call. Come with me, I'll pay your entry fees to all matches. YOU make the calls...see how they'll stick.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The exception to the 170° rule (REF: SHB p.3) does NOT allow pointing an unholstered revolver uprange at any time.

 

Agreed.

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I will say you can miss the holster to the rear without breaking the 180. My pet peeve is people breaking the 170 when they miss the holster and leave the pistol stationary pointing straight down or even slightly forward. If youre not attempting to holster, you have no 180 leeway, its 170.

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A couple of years ago at a state match I was almost called on breaking the 170 rule.  I argued my case and negated the call, the spotter broke my 170.  The scenario was rifle, shot from a table, directly facing the berm, you moved down range about 10 yds and shot the shotgun staged on the left side of the range from a table 45 degrees from the original rifle stage, you then moved another 10 yds down range and shot your pistols from a table on the right side of the range that was set at  45 degrees from the original rifle stage.  The spotter encroached into my 170, by walking straight down the range.  For me, being left handed I would have had to shoot the pistol targets over my right shoulder, if I kept the original 170 from shooting the rifle.

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42 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No one is calling ANYONE on violations...that's the problem...kind of.

 

If you DO call them, yer screwed!

 

Why?

 

Because they are usually very minor angular violations. So you will be ostracized. 

 

And I don't want to hear from the WIRE yahoos that will try and sound soooo tough about how they will always make the call. Come with me, I'll pay your entry fees to all matches. YOU make the calls...see how they'll stick.

 

Phantom

I'm indifferent to whether they stick.  I make the call to the best of my ability and if it's challenged I present my side.  After that it doesn't matter to me what the resolution is. 

 

Much like when I was a high school teacher I try not to get personally invested in an outcome.  Report what happened and move on.

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32 minutes ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

A couple of years ago at a state match I was almost called on breaking the 170 rule.  I argued my case and negated the call, the spotter broke my 170.  The scenario was rifle, shot from a table, directly facing the berm, you moved down range about 10 yds and shot the shotgun staged on the left side of the range from a table 45 degrees from the original rifle stage, you then moved another 10 yds down range and shot your pistols from a table on the right side of the range that was set at  45 degrees from the original rifle stage.  The spotter encroached into my 170, by walking straight down the range.  For me, being left handed I would have had to shoot the pistol targets over my right shoulder, if I kept the original 170 from shooting the rifle.

Well...kinda so what.

 

This doesn't have anything to do with folks actually breaking the 180. Nor does it have anything to do with calling/not calling the violation.

 

And for Capt. Bill Burt: BS!!! I dare ya to come on down to my ranges (I'll pay) and make your bold calls. And I expect you to call ALL violations (see previous posts for some of the descriptions for violations).

 

Phantom

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3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well...kinda so what.

 

This doesn't have anything to do with folks actually breaking the 180. Nor does it have anything to do with calling/not calling the violation.

 

And for Capt. Bill Burt: BS!!! I dare ya to come on down to my ranges (I'll pay) and make your bold calls. And I expect you to call ALL violations (see previous posts for some of the descriptions for violations).

 

Phantom

It's really not that big of a deal, and they're not bold calls.  If I see a violation I call it, pretty simple.  I think that's true for the vast majority of the cowboys/girls I shoot with.  Nobody is a 'harda$$', but the rules are the rules.  I haven't seen a 170 violation since April, and I shoot pretty much every weekend. 

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It's really not that big of a deal, and they're not bold calls.  If I see a violation I call it, pretty simple.  I think that's true for the vast majority of the cowboys/girls I shoot with.  Nobody is a 'harda$$', but the rules are the rules.  I haven't seen a 170 violation since April, and I shoot pretty much every weekend. 

I'll bet ya $10,000 that you have and you didn't know it...that's the other side of the problem...seriously...take my bet!

 

So...what? No solutions?????

 

The Cone would have taken care of most of the violations.

 

Phantom

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I vaguely remember the Cone of Safety from a decade or so ago.

 

Help me remember...

 

Did part of that proposal include getting rid of the holster angle rule, too ... provided you were within the cone?

 

never mind...I found it...

 

https://sassnet.com/Downloads/tg/TGBulletin0909sm.pdf

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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I remember this well. I initially thought it was a reasonable idea. Then before the EOT TG meeting I made a large plastic sheet painted in green and red showing the exact "cone of safety" being discussed and the true 170 angles coming from it.  When the actual area was seen for real the idea died. BJZ never forgave me. I didn't mean it against him personally as I had initially thought it might work. 

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19 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'll bet ya $10,000 that you have and you didn't know it...that's the other side of the problem...seriously...take my bet!

 

So...what? No solutions?????

 

The Cone would have taken care of most of the violations.

 

Phantom

I’m not perfect, so I certainly could have missed one, but when I’m holding the timer I’m pretty focused on muzzles. When I’m not an RO, I’m usually not paying much attention to what shooters are doing.

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2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

my grief is with crotch holsters,, basicly two crossdraw holsters,,, NO one will make a call on them, even if someone say is moving to their right and draws or holsters the left revolver while turned perpendicular to the firing line,,,  

 

so yes, the rule needs changed now,, or enforce the existing rule for all holsters

 

and I took a LOT of grief while on the ROC when I was the only one that came out agaisnst the Cone way back when....

Hands off the crotch holsters! Wanna get your head ripped off, say something about some speed burner with a pair on. Ouch! :o

And NEVER say they're too close together!

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631
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15 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

As to holstering a cross draw and a shooter pointing the pistol at himself, I thought the shooters can't sweep themselves?

IKe

While this is true, it isn't the sweeping of oneself that it the issue, it's the angle of the sidearm pointing uprange while holstering, albeit with the shooter in front of the barrel.  

 

Phantom is right in that the folks that transition to the weak hand to holster a cross draw are the bulk of the offenders.  I started a thread a couple of years ago and was summarily trashed by the folks who said they always make those calls and that they rarely happen.  The thread went for several pages with no one really understanding what I was trying to get across.  The fact is, the violation happens all the time while rarely being addressed.

 

I have actually had to demonstrate the violation to guilty parties so they truly understood what they were doing wrong as well as a technique to alleviate the situation.  Most were unaware of the sidearm's orientation during the holstering sequence.

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47 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

As to holstering a cross draw and a shooter pointing the pistol at himself, I thought the shooters can't sweep themselves?

IKe

So it's okay to break the 180 so long as the shooter's body is in the way????

 

Think about your question for a second...

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4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So it's okay to break the 180 so long as the shooter's body is in the way????

 

Think about your question for a second...

You can sweep yourself without breaking the 170, easily, happens all the time.

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1 hour ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

I remember this well. I initially thought it was a reasonable idea. Then before the EOT TG meeting I made a large plastic sheet painted in green and red showing the exact "cone of safety" being discussed and the true 170 angles coming from it.  When the actual area was seen for real the idea died. BJZ never forgave me. I didn't mean it against him personally as I had initially thought it might work. 

And I was with you...hence my apology in this post.

 

The fact is that folks break the 180 ALL THE TIME and it's not being called...the two primary reasons for the violations not being called are:

 

1. Folks don't understand the rules.

2. Folks will get jumped all over by other "Cowboys" for trying to make the correct call.

 

Doesn't take #2 happening too many times before one says !)@*#! it, I'm done calling it.

 

So any brilliant ideas for solving this situation or are ya'll going to be like some and bury your head in the sand and pretend that the issue doesn't exist.

 

Phantom

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

You can sweep yourself without breaking the 170, easily, happens all the time.

Get off this thread if all you're going to do is respond to points that were NEVER made...

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17 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Get off this thread if all you're going to do is respond to points that were NEVER made...

You're a hoot Phantom!  Here I am trying to make a meaningful contribution and as usual your mouth is writing checks your behind can't cash.  LOL.:lol:

 

Did you become a moderator and I didn't hear about it?

 

My response was perfectly on topic.  You can most definitely sweep yourself when drawing or holstering a crossdraw, without ever coming close to the 170, and as Ike pointed out, it's a no call.

 

That doesn't mean I disagree with your point about calls not being made.   I don't shoot in Colorado, so I don't know what you guys are doing out there.  I do know that in the Southeast, the 170 is taken seriously.  If you disagree, please come shoot a match here, break the 170, and I'll be happy to call it on you to prove my point. 

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
grammar

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Phantom... I'd like some at that $10,000... I make the calls as I see them. Sometimes I don't see them! :P

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To understand the magnitude of the violation, set up a camera at 180° to the firing line.  You'd be surprised at how often it happens.

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