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Turkey Flats Jack

Enforcing the rules

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At a match today, shooter came to line with hammer back on rifle. I was a counter. I brought it to TO attention. He told shooter SDQ. Shooter said not by SASS rules. I assured him it was. He and TO gas a discussion, then shooter shot the stage. I assumed they had discussed rules and then TO allowed shooter to shoot. After hecshot TO said no score, SDQ.  Shooter got made and said if it’s SDQ I’m going home. Packed his gear and left. This shooter had many years experience. He should know the basic rules. 

 

I hate to come off as a “harda$$, but if we don’t enforce the rules of the game it’s just not right.  At my home club, where I am range safety office I always mention hammer back is an SDQ, and we enforce the rule. 

 

Some rules are harder to call than others. Breaking the 170 is usually so brief, and just barely that you ask yourself did he or didn’t he? If you have to think about it, then shooter should get benefit if the doubt. But on the really obvious ones, hammer back, dropped gun, failure to clear guns etc. we should and must enforce the rules. 

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Sounds as if the TO needs a stiffer backbone, and the shooter a refresher course!

 

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TO held the line and did not allow a score. I don’t necessarily think allowing a shooter to shoot for no score in this situation is a terrible thing. I’ve never done it, but I’m not totally against it. 

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On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 1:31 PM, Smoky Pistols said:

Yeah, you can add me to that list as well.  HEHEHE  If I ever become State Champion, there were a helluvalot of train wrecks on the way to that buckle!

Well, I will just be dipped in $&^#!  LOL

Edited by Smoky Pistols

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On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 5:21 PM, Hoss said:

At a match today, shooter came to line with hammer back on rifle. I was a counter. I brought it to TO attention. He told shooter SDQ. ...

At a BIG match (under SASS contract), a shooter came to the line with the hammer back on rifle. A counter, Buckaroo, called it. TO (also MD) said, "I'll allow it as he didn't set it down." I told the Buckaroo he made the correct call, the TO did not.  I said nothing to the MD. The Buckaroo's mother thanked me for supporting her son.

 

:(

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2 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

At a BIG match (under SASS contract), a shooter came to the line with the hammer back on rifle. A counter, Buckaroo, called it. TO (also MD) said, "I'll allow it as he didn't set it down." I told the Buckaroo he made the correct call, the TO did not.  I said nothing to the MD. The Buckaroo's mother thanked me for supporting her son.

 

:(

It’s frustrating to me that this rule gets ignored. It’s one of the easiest SASS rules to prove (other is dropped gun) there is no question of “did he or didn’t he”? 
I know lots of folks want this rule to go away. I’m not totally against that, but, as long as it’s in the rules, should be enforced. 

 

if you shoot your shotgun, shuck the shells, move to another position and shotgun closes and you take a step it’s SDQ for moving with cocked gun. Nobody complains. Nobody wants to do away with that rule. 

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9 minutes ago, Hoss said:

if you shoot your shotgun, shuck the shells, move to another position and shotgun closes and you take a step it’s SDQ for moving with cocked gun. Nobody complains. Nobody wants to do away with that rule. 

 

I wouldn't say nobody. I don't really care for that one.

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Probably two out of three matches I attend, I see blatant rules violations. Illegal guns, illegal rigs, illegal ammo, non-appropriate attire (a LOT of "athletic shoes" because "boots hurt my feet"), safety violations, etc. No one wants to be a hard-ass, so it keeps happening. :(

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45 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

Probably two out of three matches I attend, I see blatant rules violations. Illegal guns, illegal rigs, illegal ammo, non-appropriate attire (a LOT of "athletic shoes" because "boots hurt my feet"), safety violations, etc. No one wants to be a hard-ass, so it keeps happening. :(

Oh boy! That rubs me the wrong way. As did the MD who was willing to allow a male BW shooter to not wear appropriate boots in BW. I told the MD that I might need to change categories from BW at the last minute due to foot problems. He said okay, without telling me I could wear alternate shoes/boots like he told the male.

 

Luckily, neither the male BW shooter or I needed to not wear appropriate BW boots.  IMO, when there are categories you can shoot without accommodation, change to one of them. Accommodations are for situations that cannot be remedied by changing to another category.

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How about the rule of a long gun falls & not break the 170 its a MS.It falls off a table from shooter agressivly restaging it,its a SDQ. If he drops it,its a SDQ.

This is a empty longgun. 

                                                                                                                                                         Largo

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13 minutes ago, largo casey #19191 said:

How about the rule of a long gun falls & not break the 170 its a MS.It falls off a table from shooter agressivly restaging it,its a SDQ. If he drops it,its a SDQ.

This is a empty longgun. 

                                                                                                                                                         Largo

All guns, are always loaded. -_-

How do you know the shooter didn't 'over-load' the number of rounds?

Prop failure is the only excuse for lost control of your guns.....

OLG

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I still think we now have 'way too many rules.  It was so much better when the criteria was "what would Roy do?" but I guess those days are over.  I was sick unto death at a call at SE Regional that cost a shooter (yeah, I'm talking about Mustang Dave) a 17.17 stage but, according to the rules, the call was good and all possible concessions were granted.  If we have rules, we have to follow them.

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Let's see, in the last two weeks at an annual and a monthly I saw a shooter move with a cocked gun with no DQ call, the TO catch a long gun with no DQ call, a hull left in a SG with no call (x2), a bad call on a round left in a revolver, a closed SG that would have been ignored had I not spoken up, and one other no call I can't remember at the moment.  I commented on each one yet the TO didn't want to make the call.  Sometimes you have to be a hardass, just sayin'.

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Most of the shooters around here will call the infraction on themselves. Penalties are earned. Some of the rules do not make CAS a safer game, they just complicate the game for newer shooters. However, just because we don't like all the rules doesn't mean we don't follow them. 

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3 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

a bad call on a round left in a revolver

I'm confused. Unless it is a round under the hammer, there is no call, except scoring the miss for the unfired round...

 

 SHB PG 28

Quote

Inadvertently  leaving  unfired  rounds  in  a  revolver  is  a  miss.    (Unless  the  round is  under  the  hammer, then  the  penalty  is  a  Stage  Disqualification). 

 

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China Camp once told me “ Yul, the rules are for everybody or they’re not for anybody”. 

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1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

I'm confused. Unless it is a round under the hammer, there is no call, except scoring the miss for the unfired round...

 

 SHB PG 28

 

Shooter got called for a minor safety.  In reality, he had a miss and a P for shooting out of order.

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1 minute ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Shooter got called for a minor safety.  In reality, he had a miss and a P for shooting out of order.

Ok. That makes sense!

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Call them as you see them rather than deciding what to call on whom. It is so much easier and is the cowboy way. It is all our responsibility for reading and studying the rules from time to time or to take the RO courses. 

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On 9/16/2019 at 10:20 PM, Turkey Flats Jack said:

...........................................................Just an example: recently there was a discussion on shotgun slides, what's legal or not. During that discussion I learned that having the slide over the buckle is fine but if there's enough leather wadded up to make the shells protrude from the body it is now in violation. So of course at the match I attended directly after that discussion I happened to notice a shooter that this applied to. I politely mentioned that due to the placement of the shotgun slide it was not conforming to their body as intended by the rules. I was instantly met back with "i'm a current state champ and used this very rig to earn it. No one had a problem with it there" I just walked away. I know that I probably should have taken it to the MD or someone but it was a small shoot that I really enjoy and dont want to make waves. I'm sure i'm the only one that noticed or even cared lol. 

 

So he and everyone else is OK with him cheating during his win.

OK.

Good to know, but is it really Cowboy Action Shooting to SASS rules or something else?

The posses I shoot with follow the rules even during the monthly club matches,  just to make sure things are done right as a habit at larger sanctioned matches.

Movement before the BEEP, starts from the wrong position, feet outside the box etc will earn the appropriate call.

 

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19 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

All guns, are always loaded. -_-

How do you know the shooter didn't 'over-load' the number of rounds?

Prop failure is the only excuse for lost control of your guns.....

OLG

"Haang hilm!"<_< 

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On 9/21/2019 at 8:45 PM, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Sounds as if the TO needs a stiffer backbone, and the shooter a refresher course!

 

 

Not necessarily.  Perhaps the Shooter said he was going to shoot and didn't care what the TO said?   

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I have found after 10 years of shooting SASS , That calls of any kind  came down to a Popularity contest  , 

 More then a safety call  !

Just Sayin .

Rooster 

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1 hour ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

Movement before the BEEP

So is movement before the beep a "P", as in "engaging the stage in the wrong order"? 

Just asking. 

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It is a restart, no round has gone down range.

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

So is movement before the beep a "P", as in "engaging the stage in the wrong order"? 

Just asking. 

No, TO/RO just won't let them start until they are motionless and in the prescribed start position; i.e. Hands on hat brim; Facing up range; Arms Crossed; Texas Surrender etc, etc.

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1 hour ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

I have found after 10 years of shooting SASS , That calls of any kind  came down to a Popularity contest  , 

 More then a safety call  !

Just Sayin .

Rooster 

I must be very unpopular. :blink:

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I need to weigh in:  My safety and my wifes safety are insured when all rules are followed.  I will not stay or come back to a shoot that doesn't enforce the rules.  I have several SDQ and MDQ to my credit and thanks those who called them on me.

 

Fordyce

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2 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

I have found after 10 years of shooting SASS , That calls of any kind  came down to a Popularity contest  , 

 More then a safety call  !

Just Sayin .

Rooster 

All I can say is that you must be shooting in the wrong places. I've seen spotters intimidated by certain shooters, and I've seen "Team Shooting" that yields a lot of missed calls, but I've not seen any Popularity contest calls. 

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2 hours ago, Kirk James said:

It is a restart, no round has gone down range.

Looking back, I guess I misread CLK's post.  I misunderstood him to infer that a penalty was called, so a round had been fired.   My error.  

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Enforce the rules as they stand. That's the best way to get unnecessary ones changed. After decades of CAS shooting this is a old dance. The Wild bunch shooters got rid of extra rules. 

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if you shoot your shotgun, shuck the shells, move to another position and shotgun closes and you take a step it’s SDQ for moving with cocked gun. Nobody complains. Nobody wants to do away with that rule.

 

Actually I believe the basketball rule applies, as long as its only one step and the shooter opens the gun he's OK!

Ike

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Our monthly shoot usually have 2 posse's with 13 to 16 people each. Our issue is we have very few who are up on the rules and latest clarifications. We try to have 2 or 3 TO's that are RO2 and know the rules. The problem is the counters don't. So sometimes calls are missed?

Ike

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