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Turkey Flats Jack

Enforcing the rules

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Everyone wants to be liked and no one likes a hard ass. I'm fairly new to SASS. I joined last year about this time. I originally tried cowboy shooting in the early 2000's and loved it but didnt even know there was a rule book at that time. Now i've studied the SHB and asked a million questions and have probably driven PaleWolf and a few others near the point of insanity. I'm grateful to have access to such great people in the game. I try to apply what i've learned from them when i'm at  matches.  How do y'all go about making a call when you're just another shooter? Rules are rules in my opinion. I've always practiced everything that way. I understand that some ranges may have certain things that are allowed that others don't like say a round over the berm is cause for being asked to leave. Those I can understand and get along with.. but it drives me nuts when it's a clear SASS infraction and i'm told "it's just a monthly, we're just here to have fun" Well I am too but the rules need to be enforced all the same so once I do have the chance to make it to a state or above match I dont have bad habits or gear that can get me booted.  Just an example: recently there was a discussion on shotgun slides, what's legal or not. During that discussion I learned that having the slide over the buckle is fine but if there's enough leather wadded up to make the shells protrude from the body it is now in violation. So of course at the match I attended directly after that discussion I happened to notice a shooter that this applied to. I politely mentioned that due to the placement of the shotgun slide it was not conforming to their body as intended by the rules. I was instantly met back with "i'm a current state champ and used this very rig to earn it. No one had a problem with it there" I just walked away. I know that I probably should have taken it to the MD or someone but it was a small shoot that I really enjoy and dont want to make waves. I'm sure i'm the only one that noticed or even cared lol. 

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Situations such as you mentioned are hard to bring to the attention of others, even the MD.

 

BUT, if you were sure it was illegal, did you make the call on that shooter after they shot the stage?

 

...........Widder

 

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I say this to spotters all the time but it applies to to everyone at all times.

 

Make the call based on what you see and according to your job. The worst that can happen is that the shooter gets a re-shoot.

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4 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Situations such as you mentioned are hard to bring to the attention of others, even the MD.

 

BUT, if you were sure it was illegal, did you make the call on that shooter after they shot the stage?

 

...........Widder

 

No I didn't. I am absolutely certain per the discussion with examples of what was a go/no go. As I said I didn't want to make waves and honestly I didn't figure it would go anywhere but "well it's a monthly we'll let it slide" 

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3 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

I say this to spotters all the time but it applies to to everyone at all times.

 

Make the call based on what you see and according to your job. The worst that can happen is that the shooter gets a re-shoot.

So is it up to the spotters/other shooters to police infractions on gear? Or is it just up to the to/ro? 

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You did the right thing Turkey & now the shooter you challenged will at the very least  have some doubt in his mind..just because it ain't been noticed before doesn't make it right !!!

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9 hours ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

So is it up to the spotters/other shooters to police infractions on gear? Or is it just up to the to/ro? 

Spotters can relate what they see to the TO. Anybody can go to the MD. During a stage everybody but the TO, spotters are the peanut gallery unless there's some safety issue.

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You did the right thing Jack, if I notice something I always say something to the MD or Posse leader. The fact that this guy said he was the "current state champ" shows you right there that he's full of himself. He probably knew he was wrong but since he's been getting away with it he'll keep doing it!

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IMHO it can go both ways. We all should enforce the rules but there are people that get way too much joy out of it too...….lol. I think part of what makes SASS so great are the people so you can enforce the rules while still being tactful. 

 

Range Nazi's can be as bad a the people not making the calls...….fortunately I think most of us are in the middle of those two extremes. 

 

I try to look at things with perspective. One time  new shooter showed up with an over under and the people jumped on him so bad he later told me he wasn't going to return......IOW it was handled poorly IMO.

 

I'd let a new shooter shoot a Rem 870 at their first monthly if they single loaded it because no one we shoot with cares. I wouldn't let him do the next match and I would make that very clear. If a guy that's been in the game 2 years shows up with illegal equipment trying to gain an edge I'd handle that differently.

 

Sometimes being the MD ain't as fun as you think it is but they are doing their best to try and make sure everyone is having fun and that they want to return and grow the sport..…..it's easier to understand if you have walked in their shoes. 

 

 

Edited by Cowboy Junky
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Sometimes with new shooters, we'll work with them on equipment and handling.   Equipment issues, if not safety related, usually allowed to finish the match, but with instructions to fix it before the next match.  Safety issues are attended to immediately.  Most shooters don't realize that they were either violating a safety procedure, or were close, and will act to fix it the next time.

 

Allowing shooters to violate SASS rules at a local match is begging for a problem when the shooters travel or go to a bigger match.   At a state match, two Gun Fighters from the same club were obviously violating the pumping rule and were sweeping their wrists with a loaded gun.  They were told they had to stop it.  They said it was OK at their home club.  So rather than comply with the rule, they quit.  Believe me, everybody involved felt bad, but a injury would have been worse. 

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The biggest thing I see is folks with belly buttons at the top of their stomach! If the shot belt is above the curve of the belly, I'm pretty sure it is well above the belly button. Is it really worth hassling someone for it. How much time do they really save?

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Rule enforcement can be difficult at times. I have found that new shooters accept enforcement much better than some very experienced shooters. The experienced shooter may have been doing it for years, and never been called on it. They usually know that it is wrong, and when someone calls them on it, they get mad. By the time the story gets around they have put a Spin on it to try and make it look like it is your fault. I have seen this at all levels of the game, from World Champions down. One famous Champ showed up at  WR wearing Rocky Swat team boots. I called him on it and told him to get them changed. He did, but the word spread that I was a Hard Ass. Another Champ's wife moved with the posse at EOT. If he did anything wrong, she would yell "Stop", and he would stop and demand a restart because someone yelled stop. I didn't allow it and made him finish the stage. He appealed the call and lost.  A women on the posse that shot with him regularly said that she had seen the same things happen before with him and his wife, and the T.O. would allow him a restart/shoot. One guy came to me asking for a reshoot for his son because one pistol did not fire due to the cylinder pin being pushed in to the safety position. He said that it was his fault not the boys fault. Sorry, but that didn't matter, the kid had to take the 5 misses. He continued to argue about it when I noticed that the grips on both hand guns had electrical friction tape wrapped around them. I pointed it out and told him to remove it before the next stage. He exploded and said that the grips were cracked and the tape was needed to hold them on. At first I thought that it had just happened and that it was a quick on the spot repair, but wondered if the grips on both guns had just cracked. He said that he had been shooting with them that way for the past few years, even at EOT and WR and nobody had ever said anything about it. Fact is, he knew what he was doing. I told him to fix it before the next stage, and he did..... but by the time he put a spin on the story with his many friends, I was the Bad Guy. Rule enforcement can be difficult. I try to cut as much slack as I can, but some things are just so flagrant that they must be addressed. It will never change. Just be fair and honest. If you can find a legal way to help the shooter out of the problem, then do it. I don't roam the field looking for something to ding people on. If you do, you will certainly find plenty, at any match you go to. 

 

Snakebite

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11 hours ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

Everyone wants to be liked and no one likes a hard ass. I'm fairly new to SASS. I joined last year about this time. I originally tried cowboy shooting in the early 2000's and loved it but didnt even know there was a rule book at that time. Now i've studied the SHB and asked a million questions and have probably driven PaleWolf and a few others near the point of insanity. I'm grateful to have access to such great people in the game. I try to apply what i've learned from them when i'm at  matches.  How do y'all go about making a call when you're just another shooter? Rules are rules in my opinion. I've always practiced everything that way. I understand that some ranges may have certain things that are allowed that others don't like say a round over the berm is cause for being asked to leave. Those I can understand and get along with.. but it drives me nuts when it's a clear SASS infraction and i'm told "it's just a monthly, we're just here to have fun" Well I am too but the rules need to be enforced all the same so once I do have the chance to make it to a state or above match I dont have bad habits or gear that can get me booted.  Just an example: recently there was a discussion on shotgun slides, what's legal or not. During that discussion I learned that having the slide over the buckle is fine but if there's enough leather wadded up to make the shells protrude from the body it is now in violation. So of course at the match I attended directly after that discussion I happened to notice a shooter that this applied to. I politely mentioned that due to the placement of the shotgun slide it was not conforming to their body as intended by the rules. I was instantly met back with "i'm a current state champ and used this very rig to earn it. No one had a problem with it there" I just walked away. I know that I probably should have taken it to the MD or someone but it was a small shoot that I really enjoy and dont want to make waves. I'm sure i'm the only one that noticed or even cared lol. 

I can see that you're a member of at least two clubs, one of which is Tusco. Regardless of where you observed it, I'd advise speaking to Buckaroo Bubba and see if he can address it if the shooter shows up there. I know a ton of people from Tusco (at least a couple of world champions come to mind) and the people I know understand how important it is to enforce the rules for the sake of the other shooters who are abiding by the rules and for that shooter who could end up getting DQd at the next state match or other large match. By the way, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. . .for the benefit of those easily impressed. :) Good luck!

 

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When in Rome, do as the Romans do; If it is not a safety issue it is not your job to determine  minute of angle of a shot shell slider. I have seen over the berm that no one got kicked off the range because of where the range is located. Other ranges (like the Tn State) it is an automatic "Go Home". And you have to almost shoot straight up to get over the berm. Different neighborhood has specific requirements. You will abide if you wish to participate.

 

No matter how many times you do something wrong, it will never make it right; if confronted with an issue, assess the actual facts and advise corrections. No need to kick someone off the range for less than safety issues however.

 

Tact: The ability to tell someone to go to hell and have them look forward to the trip!

 

A lot of modifications occur at local matches. It is your decision to participate or not. Will the shot shell slider cause you bad habits in the future? I don't think so.

 

Discretion is the better part of valor: Just recommending you consider your words before speaking. What kind of a reply do you expect from a State Champ who has in fact shot across the land with that gear? What facts do you have that something like that is in fact a violation? If you have them, present them.

 

I have shot with a lot of shooters with physical challenges.  Does it really matter if their shell holder is high?

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13 hours ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

So is it up to the spotters/other shooters to police infractions on gear? Or is it just up to the to/ro? 

It is up to EVERYONE that is a participant in the sport to play by the rules. 

If you see a violation then bring it to the Timing Operators attention. He/She is in charge of the stage and makes the call. 

You are welcome to take it to the Posse Marshal or the Match Director if you believe the call (or lack of it) is out of line.

There may be special circumstances of which  you are not aware.

 

Unfortunately, this gets carried to extreme at many local matches. Equipment violations get unenforced due to ignorance of the rules, sometimes for years.

Much depends on your attitude and the attitude of the shooter.

Occasionally, we all make calls that are correct in all aspects, but get overridden do to facts that are not in evidence at the time. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts
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4 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

...Allowing shooters to violate SASS rules at a local match is begging for a problem when the shooters travel or go to a bigger match. ..

 

Yep.  Local match Shooter runs out of or forgot to bring shotgun shells to the stage.  Shooter is handed some shells from the TO's belt.  We all laugh.  

 

State match and I was the TO.  Shooter shot their pistols and rifle, pickup up their shot gun as they reached to their belt for shot gun shells.  By habit (and in error) I handed the Shooter shells from by belt.  Shooter hesitated before taking them to finish the stage.

 

TO (me) made two errors.  As the Shooter was staging their guns I failed to check their belt for shotgun shells.  Second error was handing them shells during the stage.  I will no longer purposely break a SASS rule because it's "just" a monthly match.

 

New Shooter at a monthly, sure make accommodations accordingly.

 

 

 

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Alas, I "know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two,"  may apply, and not in a positive way like the Farmer's commercials imply.

 

I've been subjected to EXTREME negativity for calling things according to the SHB that were let slide at monthly matches.

 

My theory on rules is as follows. "Don't blame me for trying to see that the rules of the game are followed, as there is no honor in doing well when you did not follow the rules."

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6 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

You did the right thing Jack, if I notice something I always say something to the MD or Posse leader. The fact that this guy said he was the "current state champ" shows you right there that he's full of himself. He probably knew he was wrong but since he's been getting away with it he'll keep doing it!

Why do you say that? I walk around saying I am the current state champ all the time to everyone that will listen and I don't think I am full of myself. Of course the vast majority know very well that it just ain't so, but most are kind enough to not burst my bubble.

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2 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

It is up to EVERYONE that is a participant in the sport to play by the rules. 

If you see a violation then bring it to the Timing Operators attention. He/She is in charge of the stage and makes the call. 

You are welcome to take it to the Posse Marshal or the Match Director if you believe the call (or lack of it) is out of line.

There may be special circumstances of which  you are not aware.

 

Unfortunately, this gets carried to extreme at many local matches. Equipment violations get unenforced due to ignorance of the rules, sometimes for years.

Much depends on your attitude and the attitude of the shooter.

Occasionally, we all make calls that are correct in all aspects, but get overridden do to facts that are not in evidence at the time. 

 

 

^ What he said X 1,000.  You politely and maybe discreetly bring the matter to the attention of the Posse Marshal.  That person decides what they want to do.  If you disagree with their decision and feel strongly about it you take it to the Match Director.  If you disagree with the MD's decision you have two choices; either learn to live with it or don't shoot with that club anymore. 

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13 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Why do you say that? I walk around saying I am the current state champ all the time to everyone that will listen and I don't think I am full of myself. Of course the vast majority know very well that it just ain't so, but most are kind enough to not burst my bubble.

 

Just saying it doesn't make anyone full of themselves.  But in the example it was used as an excuse for breaking the rules.  Yeah, that guy's full of himself.

Edited by Shooting Bull
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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Just saying it doesn't make anyone full of themselves.  But in the example it was used as an excuse for breaking the rules.  Yeah, that guy's full of himself.

Of course. I was just trying to be funny. I have no idea how I would carry myself if I were a state champ. I'll let you know if it ever happens.

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14 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Of course. I was just trying to be funny. I have no idea how I would carry myself if I were a state champ. I'll let you know if it ever happens.

Yeah, you can add me to that list as well.  HEHEHE  If I ever become State Champion, there were a helluvalot of train wrecks on the way to that buckle!

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If I do ---- the timer broke and the spotters went deaf & blind:lol:

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2 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Why do you say that? I walk around saying I am the current state champ all the time to everyone that will listen and I don't think I am full of myself. Of course the vast majority know very well that it just ain't so, but most are kind enough to not burst my bubble.

Just saying your a state champ is fine I’m talking about the fact that he said it in argument to his possibly breaking the rules and that BECAUSE he’s a state champ he knows better. 

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Just now, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Just saying your a state champ is fine I’m talking about the fact that he said it in argument to his possibly breaking the rules and that BECAUSE he’s a state champ he knows better. 

I know. I get it. I was just trying to be funny. Looks like I failed. Time to fire my writer and get a new one

Edited by El Hombre Sin Nombre
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1 hour ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I know. I get it. I was just trying to be funny. Looks like I failed. Time to fire my writer and get a new one

Hey come on down to the Fort Miller match next April... you can be State Champion here, it's OK with us. :D

 

Snakebite

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5 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Hey come on down to the Fort Miller match next April... you can be State Champion here, it's OK with us. :D

 

Snakebite

It's a date

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2 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

It's a date

The 2020 match will be all about Johnsons. That's all I'll say about it. ;)

 

Snakebite

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I don't know why people are jumping on the 'state champ' comment.  That sounds like a reasonable defense.  it's the exact opposite of 'its only a monthly'.  He's saying it passes muster at major matches. 

 

Rules violations like that are tough.  I know a couple of people who are really good at correcting things like that tactfully, so I'd bring it to one of them if I could.  If not, I've had good luck with just asking them about their gear and why it's legal and getting them to show me where the line is. "Hey, that's pretty cool, how'd you do that?  Are we allowed to do that?"  Sometimes people don't care about the rules and there's nothing more I can do.  But sometimes they get to thinking critically and realize they need an adjustment.  That works because I'm relatively new, so it would work for the OP too. 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

I don't know why people are jumping on the 'state champ' comment.  That sounds like a reasonable defense.  it's the exact opposite of 'its only a monthly'.  He's saying it passes muster at major matches

 

While what you're saying may be technically true, it's the attitude I read it with that causes me to think this person is full of himself.  I would hope a state champion would take the time to explain to a new shooter exactly why the perceived infraction wasn't a violation of the rules. 

Edited by Shooting Bull
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I’m a friend of El Hombre Sin Nombre and no state champion either, but I’ve always been interested in attending the Fort Miller match.  If it’s a Johnson match I should let you know my guns are small in diameter but they sure are short. Hope I’m able to attend. Hi 

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2 minutes ago, Morgun Play said:

I’m a friend of El Hombre Sin Nombre 

 

How much is he payin' you? :P:lol::lol:

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4 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

While what you're saying may be technically true, it's the attitude I read it with that causes me to think this person is full of himself.  I would hope a state champion would take the time to explain to a new shooter exactly why the perceived infraction wasn't a violation of the rules. 

Exactly how I saw it. It was full of attitude and nothing more to follow so I walked away. 

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3 minutes ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

Exactly how I saw it. It was full of attitude and nothing more to follow so I walked away. 

 

If you ever find yourself out here in Sin City let us know. We have state champs who’d love to shoot with you and answer any questions you may have. ;)

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1 hour ago, Morgun Play said:

I’m a friend of El Hombre Sin Nombre and no state champion either, but I’ve always been interested in attending the Fort Miller match.  If it’s a Johnson match I should let you know my guns are small in diameter but they sure are short. Hope I’m able to attend. Hi 

I'm sure they will be able to reach the targets.

 

sb

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