LEVER LOCK - Who's Using This ?

[Blast Masterson]

 I see a lot of "Opinion" in this thread. So let's look at facts as written.

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Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved.  All others are illegal.

 

If this sport has nothing to do with;

firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West

Old West style

vintage firearm

must be typical of the late 19th century

how it would have been in the Old West

traditions of the Old West

available during the cowboy era.

typical of the period from approximately 1860 until 1899

 

why is it referenced so often?

 

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In each of the respective sections, allowed modifications are listed.  Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm is available, does not necessarily mean it is legal for competition.  Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved.  All others are illegal. 

 

 Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the only source of approval.  Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms used without this approval are illegal.

 

Can someone provide written SASS approval of this lever lock system?

Shooters may not "complain at main matches", but I'll bet a few members may be rubbed the wrong way with some of this stuff.

 

Is this stuff not still applicable?

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Cowboy Action Shooting™ is a multifaceted amateur shooting sport in which contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, lever action rifles, and side by side double barreled, pre-1899 pump, or lever action shotguns.  The shooting competition is staged in a unique, characterized, Old West style.

American history buffs and serious shooters alike agree the use of vintage firearms, authentic costuming, unique targets, and fast action make Cowboy Action Shooting™ one of the most interesting of all shooting sports for both spectator and contestant.  

 Participants may choose the style of costume they wish to wear, but all clothing must be typical of the late 19th century, a B-Western movie, or Western television series.

 

SASS puts a great deal of emphasis on costuming because it adds so much to the uniqueness of the game and helps to create a festive, informal atmosphere that supports the friendly, fraternal feeling we encourage in our competitors.   All shooters must be in costume, and we encourage invited guests and family also to be costumed.  Shooters must remain in costume at all match events, including dinners, award ceremonies, dances, and other SASS related activities.   All clothing and equipment must be worn appropriately and how it was intended, or how it would have been in the Old West or as seen on B-Western movies and television.

 

OUTLAWED ITEMS SASS wants our participants to be safe, have fun, develop their competitive shooting skills, and enjoy the rich traditions of the Old West.  We ask you join us in the friendly spirit of competition and preservation of our heritage.  The use or presence of any of the listed outlawed items will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty.   - Modern shooting gloves - Short sleeve shirts (male competitors only) - Short sleeve tee shirts, long sleeve tee shirts, and tank tops for all competitors.   (Long sleeve Henley type shirts with buttons are acceptable.) - Modern feathered cowboy hats (Shady Bradys) Straw hats of traditional design are acceptable (e.g., Stetson, Baily, Sombreros, etc.) - Designer jeans are not allowed.  Designer jeans include modern jeans that have slogans or logos embroidered, silk screened, and such, saying things like “PINK” or “BABY.”  Jeans with fancy or flashy adornments are acceptable. - Ball caps. - All types of athletic shoes or combat boots, no matter the material from which they are constructed. - Nylon, plastic, or Velcro accouterments. - The displaying of any manufacturer’s, sponsor’s, or team logos on apparel.  (Manufacturer’s labels on such apparel or equipment are acceptable)

 

 In each of the respective sections, allowed modifications are listed.  Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm is available, does not necessarily mean it is legal for competition.  Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved.  All others are illegal.   

 

 Any firearm modification not specifically referenced in this Handbook is prohibited.  Parties interested in having modifications, parts, or firearms considered for approval and inclusion in the SASS accepted modification text can request a Firearms Modification Consideration application from SASS Headquarters.  Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the only source of approval.  Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms used without this approval are illegal.

Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here.   

 

Sights must look like sights available during the cowboy era.

Any side-by-side or single shot shotgun typical of the period from approximately 1860 until 1899 .

 Lever action, tubular feed, exposed hammer shotguns of the period are allowed,

Rifles or carbines used in the main and team matches must be original or replicas of lever or slide action rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until 1899,

 

 

... does this stuff no longer apply to the game?

 

The rules go so far as...

Wearing a short sleeve shirt is a SDQ? Repeated occurrence is a MDQ. Why, because you have an unfair advantage? I don't think so.

 

I really don't care about the life lock system issue specifically, but I do care about SASS standards and feel everyone should play the game as written. If this is SASS sanctioned, fine. But I'd like to understand why it was allowed when other insignificant restrictions are still on the books. Many things are allowed in the handbook (like the short stroke). But they are spelled out and have limitations and restrictions. I'm not talking about that. But just because a short stroke was allowed, does not make all other modifications automatically acceptable.

 

Every jacked round is 5 sec. A short stroke does not give you a 5  sec. advantage. A lever lock does. This device warrants it's own category in my opinion. Several gun modifications are sanctioned, so long as they do not create a shooting advantage.

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Receiver, frame, grip frame, cylinder, or barrel engraving is permitted provided it does not constitute a grip enhancement.  

- No portion of the grip frame may be checkered, stippled, serrated or otherwise modified to constitute a grip enhancement.

A grip enhancement improves safety. A Lever Lock decreases safety by preventing making a rifle safe without dropping the hammer.

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Once a rifle is cocked, either the round under the hammer must be expended (shot) or the action opened in order for the rifle to be returned to a safe condition.

 

So my question is, was this device SASS sanctioned? If so, why?

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

 

 

Can someone provide written SASS approval of this lever lock system?

 

I really don't care about the life lock system issue specifically, but I do care about SASS standards and feel everyone should play the game as written. If this is SASS sanctioned, fine. But I'd like to understand why it was allowed when other insignificant restrictions are still on the books. Many things are allowed in the handbook (like the short stroke). But they are spelled out and have limitations and restrictions. I'm not talking about that. But just because a short stroke was allowed, does not make all other modifications automatically acceptable.

 

Every jacked round is 5 sec. A short stroke does not give you a 5  sec. advantage. A lever lock does. This device warrants it's own category in my opinion. Several gun modifications are sanctioned, so long as they do not create a shooting advantage.

A grip enhancement improves safety. A Lever Lock decreases safety by preventing making a rifle safe without dropping the hammer.

 

So my question is, was this device SASS sanctioned? If so, why?

Easy.

SHB page 33

Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here.

 

Is this an internal modification.  Yes

 

Can it bee seen with the firearm at rest, action closed?  No.

 

Does it affect the external operation.  Debatable, but I would say no.

 

Does it conflict with one of the listed modifications.  No. 

 

I personally am not interested in a lever lock, but it appears to be legal to me. How the shooter chooses to deal with having to clear it during a course of fire may not be legal though.

 

We don't differentiate by types of modifications and I for one don't want to change that.

 

Your statement about sanctioned modifications not creating a shooting advantage is simply wrong.  Short strokes create an advantage, lowered hammer spurs create an advantage, a two drop shell mod on an 87 creates an advantage, recoil reducers create an advantage.  Don't like people having that advantage over you, go do the same thing. 

[Tennessee williams]

7 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

 I see a lot of "Opinion" in this thread.

Your horse would be much higher if you didn't use a short stroked rifle.

[Blast Masterson]

On 11/6/2019 at 12:47 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

Does it affect the external operation.  Debatable, but I would say no.

It prevents opening  (and making the rifle safe) without dropping the hammer over a live round. So I perceive this as affecting the external operation.

On 11/6/2019 at 12:47 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

but it appears to be legal to me.

I am asking for the required documentation on the decision by SASS, not an assumption or opinion.

On 11/6/2019 at 12:47 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

Short strokes create an advantage, lowered hammer spurs create an advantage, a two drop shell mod on an 87 creates an advantage, recoil reducers create an advantage.  Don't like people having that advantage over you, go do the same thing. 

Already discussed: These items have been approved through SASS (written down in the shooters handbook) therefor there is no need to make these comparisons as they went through SASS. What I am asking is, was this device written and accepted by SASS (but not yet listed in the Handbook)?

 

On 11/6/2019 at 6:04 PM, Tennessee williams said:

Your horse would be much higher if you didn't use a short stroked rifle.

I practice with rifle and pistols that are not short stroked. Both my match rifle and pistols are manufactured to SASS standards (they were not modified after market). These modifications were accepted by SASS with stipulations. There is a difference.

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I am not a purest, I'm simply playing devils advocate and discussing my observations. I am not afraid to discuss things that go against the flow of those established shooters of this game. It's not about being confrontational. As you can see by all the quotes in my post, I'm not making opinion, I'm discussing established rules. I am open to changing my opinion if someone can enlighten me that  this issue was addressed and approved by SASS as written in the the Handbook concerning adoption of changes to the rule (not just that short strokes are ok so everything else must be ok. 

 

On 11/6/2019 at 10:28 AM, Blast Masterson said:

In each of the respective sections, allowed modifications are listed.  Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm is available, does not necessarily mean it is legal for competition.  Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved.  All others are illegal. 

 

I would appreciate facts, not just more opinions about perceived rules.

[Captain Bill Burt]

9 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

It prevents opening  (and making the rifle safe) without dropping the hammer over a live round. So I perceive this as affecting the external operation.

I am asking for the required documentation on the decision by SASS, not an assumption or opinion.

Already discussed: These items have been approved through SASS (written down in the shooters handbook) therefor there is no need to make these comparisons as they went through SASS. What I am asking is, was this device written and accepted by SASS (but not yet listed in the Handbook)?

 

I practice with rifle and pistols that are not short stroked. Both my match rifle and pistols are manufactured to SASS standards (they were not modified after market). These modifications were accepted by SASS with stipulations. There is a difference.

- - - - - - - - - - -

 

I am not a purest, I'm simply playing devils advocate and discussing my observations. I am not afraid to discuss things that go against the flow of those established shooters of this game. It's not about being confrontational. As you can see by all the quotes in my post, I'm not making opinion, I'm discussing established rules. I am open to changing my opinion if someone can enlighten me that  this issue was addressed and approved by SASS as written in the the Handbook concerning adoption of changes to the rule (not just that short strokes are ok so everything else must be ok. 

 

 

I would appreciate facts, not just more opinions about perceived rules.

Here's the facts.  There is no required documentation for an internal modification.  I quoted you the rule that says that.  Here it is again.

 

SHB page 33

Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here.

 

You've expressed an opinion that this modification affects the external operation of the gun.  I've expressed a different opinion.  One of us is right and the other isn't.  Perhaps you could complain about this to your TG, or write a letter to SASS asking them to disallow this modification.  I'm not sure what other recourse you have as it appears this modification is being accepted at major matches and I've yet to hear PWB or an RO Instructor state that they think it's illegal equipment.

[Captain Bill Burt]

To be clear, I have no interest in this modification for exactly the reason you cited.  It doesn't allow opening and making safe without either lowering the hammer over a live round, or taking the side plates off.  I'm very skeptical about this modification's utility.

[Equanimous Phil]

ADVISORY: I often tend to be nitpicking...

 

Short stroking is always mentioned to be legal - what must be true as apparently a lot of shooters have it - but where in the SHB is this written? There's "All lever action rifles must have a lever travel distance of not less than 4-1/8 inches". That simply says that rifles with less of 4.125" travel are illegal with the exception of the Browning BL-22. In other clauses there are modifications listed like "hammer travel distance on any revolver may be adjusted", "hammer stops may be added", "internal parts of the hammer may be changed" or "barrels may be altered to accept period style sights". But "the rifles must have a lever travel distance of not less than 4.125", I don't see an allowance to modificate the travel here, especially in combination with "firearms must operate as intended by the original pre-1900 designs they depict".

 

As I said, nitpicking, very nitpicking, but maybe a slight rewording of the "short stroking clause" would be needed to be clear...? (or is there another paragraph refering to short strokes?)

[Blast Masterson]

On 11/8/2019 at 8:56 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

You've expressed an opinion that this modification affects the external operation of the gun.  I've expressed a different opinion.  One of us is right and the other isn't.  Perhaps you could complain about this to your TG, or write a letter to SASS asking them to disallow this modification.  I'm not sure what other recourse you have as it appears this modification is being accepted at major matches and I've yet to hear PWB or an RO Instructor state that they think it's illegal equipment.

I have no intention of "complaining" to anyone.  All this is above my pay grade.

 

I am assuming here, but the short stroke is described and limitations have been placed on it in the SHB. If it is not a written modification by SASS it too will be illegal (as stated in the SHB).

All I'm asking is if SASS sanctioned the the lever lock (and/or the short stroke), it must be in a written reply somewhere. So show me... I'm not asking if this device should be allowed. I'm asking if it has been.

 

My concern is because of the perceived safety issues of dropping the hammer to release the lever, not because someone who jacks rounds will possibly beat me in a match with the device. 

 

I interpret "the external operation of the gun." as how the gun now operates the external lever which now prevents extraction of a potential live round in the rifle without having to drop the hammer to make the rifle safe, not how it changes the looks of internal components. Can you lower the hammer over a live round without incident? Sure, but it's not allowed.

 

Modern pump shotguns have the same lock which prevents operation of the slide unless the trigger is pulled. But they also have an external unlocking lever, which this device does not provide.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

37 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

 

All I'm asking is if SASS sanctioned the the lever lock (and/or the short stroke), it must be in a written reply somewhere. So show me... I'm not asking if this device should be allowed. I'm asking if it has been.

 

 

Apparently it has.

 

[Equanimous Phil]

4 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Apparently it has.

 

May I ask what's the procedure if the TO commands cease fire during the rifle string and the gun is levered and cocked? 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

May I ask what's the procedure if the TO commands cease fire during the rifle string and the gun is levered and cocked? 

 

IMO, same as with a cocked revolver.

Point muzzle in a safe direction and keep finger out of the trigger guard.

Lower hammer and open lever to "make safe" under the T/O's observation after the "cease fire" issue has been resolved.

 

 

[Fence Cutter]

Who knew when I started this thread that I'd be opening such a can of worms..............

[Hells Comin]

Did you ever get an answer to your post?

[Equanimous Phil]

9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

IMO, same as with a cocked revolver.

Point muzzle in a safe direction and keep finger out of the trigger guard.

Lower hammer and open lever to "make safe" under the T/O's observation after the "cease fire" issue has been resolved.

 

Thanks for your answer. 

 

From a technical view, the cocked rifle hammer (with lever lock) is indeed a similar situation to a cocked revolver. But while every TO would be aware of the problem with the cocked revolver and react accordingly, 99.x% of the situations with the cocked rifle (TO hasn't read this thread) would probably go like:

TO: "Cease fire, open lever"

S: "Can't" 

TO: "Open lever NOW" 

S: "I can't, there's this thingy built-in in my rifle called a lever lock, so I can't open the lever when it's cocked unlike every other rifle" 

TO: "... WTH?!?.. Ok..., well, meanwhile the dog who ran into the bay went away, so point your rifle downrange and shoot that round. I'd say you shoot every round left in your rifle downrange 'cause I don't see yet how you'd get them out safely at the ULT." 

 

And there's a second point I'd like to mention: Consider that sometimes it could be hard to get a safe direction to point at if downrange has become unsafe, e.g. with covered props or in a indoor combat room.

 

Just my thoughts, Equanimous

[Hells Comin]

What ever happened to the Dog ?

[Fence Cutter]

28 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

What ever happened to the Dog ?

 

He heard more than he wanted and trotted off.........

[Hells Comin]

3 hours ago, Fence Cutter said:

 

He heard more than he wanted and trotted off.........

Yup

[Grey Dog]

He was looking for his paw

[Hells Comin]

Anyone running sub 2.5 seconds using it?

[Jinglebobgerri]

There seems to be a need to address some confusion about the function of the lever lock. Some have stated that the lever lock, once in position (i.e. rifle cocked) that the only way to "unlock" the action is to pull the trigger letting the hammer fall under full power to forward most position. The hammer can be let down with thumb to forward most position or to the half cock position unlocking the action. An article written in the January 19 shooting times about the lever gun references a course at "Gunsite" taught by Lew Gosnell (the winner of the first EOT) addresses this aspect of lever gun handling and more.

 

There are other firearms used at SASS events that operate in much the same manner. Different brands of slide action Lightning rifles lock the bolt into position until hammer is down.

 

The 1890 Winchester design rifle (used by Buckaroos and 22 side matches) locks the action closed until firing pin is moved forward unlocking the action, usually by the hammer. And how about the gun that SASS was named after, the Colt single action army revolver,.  Unlike a 66/73 rifle with a lever lock, the Colt SAA (and clones) will not  unlock the cylinder by returning hammer to half cock. The hammer must be fully forward so the leg on the bolt slips over the cam on hammer, then hammer must be brought back to half cock.

 

Most cap and ball revolvers also work this way. How many times have you seen competitors manipulate these pistols to get their five shots off.

 

One of the aspects of the lever lock is that it will reduce the event of an OBD in 66 rifles and 73 rifles where the trigger safety has been defeated or not operating correctly. The lever lock will keep the rifle in battery until hammer reaches forward most position. Many OBD's occur when the cartridge is partially extracted from chamber when trigger is pulled. (i.e. late on the trigger)  This scenario simply cannot happen with the lever lock installed and adjusted properly.

Note that a lever lock will not stop an OBD when a cartridge is entering chamber when there is an obstruction.  The cartridge can be set off by the inertia of firing pin. There are great videos of this by some very knowledgeable SASS members.

 

There are some that have questioned the legality of the lever lock. The lever lock is entirely internal. The need for SASS approval (according to the SASS rule book) may not have been needed, however,  we elected to seek SASS approval to eliminate any doubt.  The lever lock system was submitted to SASS in early 2017. It was approved by SASS in 2017. If you need further clarification of this , you will need to go through SASS channels. We will not get more specific than this on a public forum.

 

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

16 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

Anyone running sub 2.5 seconds using it?

Bout 3 seconds on a good run with it. Bout 3 seconds on a good run without it.

[Tennessee williams]

10 seconds is about 3 seconds ain't it?

[Fence Cutter]

22 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

10 seconds is about 3 seconds ain't it?

 

 it is if we're timin' each other