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Outrider Outlaw

Is this legal?

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At a recent monthly match I saw one shooter with what appeared to be a shotgun slide over the top of the built in shotgun loops on his holster leather.  The shells are obviously at or below his belly button as per the rules, but it seems to me that they are not confirming to his body.  If you look closely you can see the loops that are built into his holster leather.

1491071819_shotgunloops.thumb.jpg.25f6fccf6b1535d8acb56d18e11335a6.jpg . 

 

Edited by Outrider Outlaw

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- Leather belt slide ammo loops are acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo belt

SHB p.3

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Thank you for the quick response.  Another related question:  At another recent match I saw something similar although I don't have a picture.  I'm not sure if the slide was over loops on the holster leather or if the slide was "scrunched up" as if it was too big to go between his holsters.  Either way, it didn't appear to me to be conforming to his body.

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38 minutes ago, Outrider Outlaw said:

Thank you for the quick response.  Another related question:  At another recent match I saw something similar although I don't have a picture.  I'm not sure if the slide was over loops on the holster leather or if the slide was "scrunched up" as if it was too big to go between his holsters.  Either way, it didn't appear to me to be conforming to his body.

 

From your description, it was probably not in compliance with the rules.

 

Here are a couple of examples of illegally worn slides:

 

 

 

belt buckle slide (2).jpg   JAN 2018 (2).jpg

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

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I am a little confused. Is the slide over the buckle considered not conforming to the body? Does the belt have to be worn backwards, or the buckle offset from center,  to meet the criteria? I see the OP picture slide over loops and recognize that as not allowed.

 

Imis

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The reason shotshell slides are not allowed to be worn over SG loops is because that sets the ammo out & away from the shooter's "contour".

Wearing one over a belt buckle + multiple layers of belt (first photo) does the same thing...as does the leather "block" built into the slide in the second photo.

It is also illegal to stuff anything behind the belt to push the ammo out from the body.

 

 

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I've seen a few folks wear slides in the front like that - I had no idea the rules interpretation considered wearing a slide in the front as illegal by routing it across the belt buckle.

Obvious attempts to block or "pad" the natural contour of the slide to gain an advantage are pretty clear infractions but the photo of the slide across the belt buckle looks pretty innocuous. 

 

Is it "always" wrong to wear a slide over the belt buckle or is it a judgement call based on how much the shells are protruding?

 

always learning

 

Edited by Chuck Steak

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I used to move my buckle around to the left side so that the 45 caliber cartridge loops on the belt were at the front/front right ... I wore a shotgun shell slide over the cartridge loops ... AND ... the cartridge loops had 45s in them. It's not legal to have a shotshell slide on top of shotgun shell loops but the rules say nothing about putting one on top of bullet loops.

 

Once I got tired of reaching down that far to get shotgun shells (and got a dedicated shotshell belt w/ elastic loops) it was no longer an issue. :ph34r:

Edited by Patagonia Pete
edit: Of course ... a dedicated shotshell belt w/ a x-draw can be a pain. I changed to dbl strong so I could use a dedicated belt.

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I understand - but the handbook doesn't say anything about belt buckles either.  Maybe there is just room for interpretation in the wording of "Ammo loops must conform to the shooters contour"

The handbook also says only one row of shell loops is permissible but I have seen a few two row setups that pull from the top and from the bottom.

Some folks will always look for a way to stretch the rules.

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15 minutes ago, Chuck Steak said:

I understand - but the handbook doesn't say anything about belt buckles either.  Maybe there is just room for interpretation in the wording of "Ammo loops must conform to the shooters contour"

The handbook also says only one row of shell loops is permissible but I have seen a few two row setups that pull from the top and from the bottom.

Some folks will always look for a way to stretch the rules.

Well ... it looks like the guy in the original post does in fact have a slide on top of shotgun loops and that scenario is mentioned specifically in the rule book.

(IMHO) it's kind of a a pain to use a dedicated shotshell belt w/ a x-draw (have to reach over etc) ...   

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31 minutes ago, Chuck Steak said:

I understand - but the handbook doesn't say anything about belt buckles either.  Maybe there is just room for interpretation in the wording of "Ammo loops must conform to the shooters contour"

The photo example isn't illegal because of the belt buckle...the loops are also extended out from the shooter's body by SEVEN layers of leather.

 

The handbook also says only one row of shell loops is permissible but I have seen a few two row setups that pull from the top and from the bottom.

Some folks will always look for a way to stretch the rules.

If you are referring to a loops with "one round up/one round down"; that complies with the "single row" (i.e. not stacked one in front of the other), as well as the "two rounds per loop" limit.

 

 

 

Bisley double loop belt.jpg  DIXIEBELL004.jpg

 

......................................... ILLEGAL .............................................................................................................. LEGAL ...................................................

 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add photos
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20 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

 

Bisley double loop belt.jpg  DIXIEBELL004.jpg

 

......................................... ILLEGAL .............................................................................................................. LEGAL ...................................................

 

 

 

without applying a protractor, those holsters look to be pushing the 30 degree rule.  

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5 minutes ago, Hoss said:

without applying a protractor, those holsters look to be pushing the 30 degree rule.  

 

This is 30 degrees:

 

30 degrees.jpg

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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This was an interesting & informative string. Thanks for throwing it out there, Outlaw. And, thanks to PaleWolf for the clarifications.

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24 minutes ago, J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE said:

Are the terms Ammo belt and gunbelt interchangeable?

 

 

In regard to the application of the rule prohibiting wearing a SG slide over SG loops, then yes...the terms are interchangeable.

If a "gunbelt" has loops used to carry ammunition, it is also considered an "ammo belt"; same as slipping a revolver holster onto an ammo belt.

 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

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From Handbook., pg 4...         "Shotgun Ammo loops must conform to the shooters contour"

 

Is this also applicable to the shooter wearing a belt loosely enough to allow shells to tip outward from their "contour"?

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

From Handbook., pg 4...         "Shotgun Ammo loops must conform to the shooters contour" (i.e. not tilt out from the belt)."

 

Is this also applicable to the shooter wearing a belt loosely enough to allow shells to tip outward from their "contour"?

 

IMO, YES.

The intent of the rule is to prevent allowing any ammunition to "tilt out" away from the shooter's body.

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Interpretation has a lot to do with rules that are not clearly codified in writing.  I'm still new - I ask a lot of questions and sometimes my question is "why" - as someone who doesn't know "why"  In all of the pictures so far in this thread - the only "legal" belt looks to me like the one that most stretches the intent of the rules.  The over/under belt looks like a porcupine of shotgun shells - and it is perfectly legal.  I'm certain that at some point the "why" is always meant to prevent abusing the rules to create an advantage.

All rules books tend to lean towards "arbitrary" to a small degree because not every single situation can be legislated in writing.  Sometimes a rule needs to be interpreted but in the end, rule are rules. 

 

Sometimes the only two options to a fuzzy rule are:

1) Accept interpretations from the governing body when they come up

2) Find an alternative shooting sport.

Edited by Chuck Steak
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Sometimes "the why" of a rule helps my understanding. Sometimes I do not agree with the "why." I have spoken my mind especially on the TG forum. That has made me a persona non grata with some people.

 

When I first became a TG, I thought our (the TGs) opinions were valued in making and clarifying rules. I found that is not the case.

 

I seem to have issues with rules against something that anyone could do to enhance their shooting; for example SG shells tilting away from the body. It takes some finagling for some of us to ensure they conform to our body shapes. So, the "why" is to simplistic and not logical to me.

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