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Cholla

Sharps Questions

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Two Questions:

 

if if you were to start fresh, what caliber Sharps would you get? I have a bunch of new .45-70 brass and dies so that’s the way I’m leaning. 

 

Isn’t C Sharps and Shiloh Sharps two separate companies? I see two rifles on Gunbroker that have Shiloh and C Sharps markings. I assume someone has swapped barrels, which concerns me. 

 

My goal is to do the long range matches in Arizona at Winter Range (I think).

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lots more options with 45-70  

 

Yes, Shiloh & C Sharps are 2 different companies.

 

Somebody had a C Sharps for sale on the SASS wire not long ago. I dont recall if it sold or not. You might want to check it out 

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Shiloh machines their receivers from castings and makes their own barrels.

 

C Sharps machines their receivers from billet stock and uses Badger barrels.

 

BOTH are USA Made excellent works of craftsmanship.

 

as far as caliber - will leave that up to recommendations from pards :) 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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As Hoss said, two different companies.  Shiloh, however, is up for sale ( $10 Million) but I believe continues to operate.  They have three rifles for sale in their inventory room, in 45-70, which is the most common caliber.

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If you are shooting 300 yards or less, go with .38-55.  Much less recoil than .45-70 and very accurate. 

 

If you are shooting 300-600 yards, go with .40-65 or .45-70. 

 

.45-70 is the most used caliber, but is really more than is needed most of the time.

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19 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

As Hoss said, two different companies.  Shiloh, however, is up for sale ( $10 Million) but I believe continues to operate.  They have three rifles for sale in their inventory room, in 45-70, which is the most common caliber.

 

https://www.ranchflip.com/ranch/208241

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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1 hour ago, Cholla said:

Two Questions:

 

if if you were to start fresh, what caliber Sharps would you get? I have a bunch of new .45-70 brass and dies so that’s the way I’m leaning. 

 

Isn’t C Sharps and Shiloh Sharps two separate companies? I see two rifles on Gunbroker that have Shiloh and C Sharps markings. I assume someone has swapped barrels, which concerns me. 

 

My goal is to do the long range matches in Arizona at Winter Range (I think).

back in the day Shiloh used to buy their action from C.  Sharps. I don't know when Shiloh started to make their own actions. 

Question is are you going to shoot Black powder or smokeless, as that right there would determine case length for me. 
If I was shooting smokeless I'd go 45-70 if I was shooting black powder i'd go 45-100 minimum and 45-110 for sure. 

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38 minutes ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

back in the day Shiloh used to buy their action from C.  Sharps. I don't know when Shiloh started to make their own actions. 

 

 Shiloh:

 

 

 

C Sharps:

 

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

back in the day Shiloh used to buy their action from C.  Sharps. I don't know when Shiloh started to make their own actions. 

Since C. Sharps was formed when the partnership that was Shiloh broke up... I don't see that as happening.  

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I have C Sharps 1885 High Walls in 45-90 and 40-65.  Both are excellent rifles and capable of moa accuracy out to 1200 yards.  The 45-90 handles the wind better.  

 

Keep in mind that if you get interested in other buffalo gun games that you could shoot well more than 50 rounds in a match.  The bigger the gun the more that you get pounded.  Many of the matches I have shot do not draw enough participants to get two relays so, you shoot straight through.  A 535 grain bullet in front of 80 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 is perfect for the long distance shoots but you need to be able to tolerate the abuse.  

 

For our games the 40-65 is more than enough.  A women shooting a 40-65 Shiloh Sharps won a thousand yard match (no categories, just overall score) and then did it again the next month.  In the hands of a good shooter the 40-65 is a capable cartridge.

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Look hard at a Shiloh #1 with shotgun stock.

There's 1K yds shoots at BA in the spring.

Will you be load'n BP?

YES-Shiloh and C. Sharps are 2 different companies.

The are about 500' apart in Big Timber, Mt.

.45-70 is a good learning caliber........;)

Also-for target work-don't go the cheap on sights.

I use MVA Soule type.

OLG

 

Edited by The Original Lumpy Gritz

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1 hour ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

back in the day Shiloh used to buy their action from C.  Sharps. I don't know when Shiloh started to make their own actions. 

Question is are you going to shoot Black powder or smokeless, as that right there would determine case length for me. 
If I was shooting smokeless I'd go 45-70 if I was shooting black powder i'd go 45-100 minimum and 45-110 for sure. 

 

False-

Shiloh in Big Timber have made there own actions since day one.

Shiloh also makes their own barrels from scratch, along with the every other part.

Call Shiloh and they will confirm this.............

Have you even fired a 110?

A .45-70 will kill anything on this planet.

OLG

 

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You may have been looking at a Farmingdale Shiloh Sharps when the two partners, Wolfgang Droegie and John Schoffstall were partners.  After a bad break up they both moved to Big Timber Montana and formed their own separate companies.  John Schoffstall still owns C Sharps.  Wolfgang Droegie used to own Shiloh Sharps, but later sold it to the Bryant brothers who I understand have it up for sale.  The two companies are right across from each other.  I recommend the 45-70.  They are both excellent rifles.  Check the prices to get into the 1874 action, and the price of the sights and you are looking at  over $3500.

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I have a Shiloh Business Rifle in .44-77 and while the caliber requires a bit of effort to get set up for, it is an accurate and soft recoiling round that is plenty accurate with good sights to any range you would wish to compete with in a BP rifle.  If you wish to shoot smokeless there are some accurate loadings, but smokeless will change the recoil.  Also if you are considering smokeless, the bigger capacity case add some challenges to reloading.

 

Both companies make better guns that the average shooter can utilize.  The better the sights you choose, the happier you will be.

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4 hours ago, Cholla said:

Two Questions:

 

if if you were to start fresh, what caliber Sharps would you get? I have a bunch of new .45-70 brass and dies so that’s the way I’m leaning. 

 

Isn’t C Sharps and Shiloh Sharps two separate companies? I see two rifles on Gunbroker that have Shiloh and C Sharps markings. I assume someone has swapped barrels, which concerns me. 

 

My goal is to do the long range matches in Arizona at Winter Range (I think).

If you have BP anywhere in the equation , start with a 45-70.  Much more data from all those who have gone before. If the single-shot bug really takes hold , you can expand later. If you tire of the game or find it just isn't your thing , a 45-70  would be easier to get some of you capital back.

Good luck , and good shooting.

Rex :D

Edited by Rex M Rugers #6621
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At this point I’ll probably use APP. I have to sell a few more things before I can look seriously. 

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Go with the real stuff.

I use Goex Old 'E' 2F in our .45-70 and .45-90 Shiloh's.

Do you cast your own?

If not-Good place to buy, till you start casting.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/

 

This would be a good bullet to try out.....

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-lyman-535gr-postell/

 

OLG

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Originally I had a Uberti in 45-70, great rifle but I wanted a Montana made rifle.  There was not a thing wrong with it, it just was mot a Montana rifle.  I shot several and settled on the 45-70 because I bought it for hunting.  Ammo is available and the reloading options are plentiful.  So I placed an order with Shiloh Sharps for the 1874 Sporter #3 and at the time the wait was about 9 months.  For nostalgia sake the 45-110 would be nice but for practical purposes, I know that doesn't always apply to gun purchases, I went with the 45-70 and no regrets.  The rifle has taken elk and mule deer and a 1st in a long range shoot.  Very happy with it.   Hope that helps....

Edited by Hashknife Cowboy
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As I recall the breakup occurred after Shiloh moved to Big Timber.

 

To the OP, if you think you might ever shoot NRA BP Cartridge Silhouette there's a 12 lb 2 oz weight limit.  my 30" octagon .40 caliber barrel makes weight by 1 oz.  

 

+1 to Lumpy's comments.  If buying used, be sure to ask if chamber is cut for paper-patched bullets.  

Edited by Griff

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6 hours ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

As Hoss said, two different companies.  Shiloh, however, is up for sale ( $10 Million) but I believe continues to operate.  They have three rifles for sale in their inventory room, in 45-70, which is the most common caliber.

Really? Man do I wish I had $10 million. 

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3 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Really? Man do I wish I had $10 million. 

You can buy a Sharps for far less... ;)

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Just now, Griff said:

You can buy a Sharps for far less... ;)

I have one, but had to wait two years for it to be built. Would be great to skip to the front of the line whenever I wanted. 

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OLG I read in a gun rag that C sharps used to supply raw actions to Shiloh. It could have bee something made up by the writer but i for sure remember that being the case. 

As for firing a 45-110 no I have no but i regularly shoot a 458 Lott with 500gr DGS bullets doing 2270 fps I don't see a 540 gr paper patched bullet doing 1500 fps being much of a challenge. My Quigley rifle should be completed in November according to Shiloh. I bought my spot in line through Bill Goodman and only have a 10 month wait instead of two years. I already have paper patched bullets from Montana bullets, I have my brass from Norma, and I have a list of load data from Kenny Wasenberger

Edited by Son of the Midnight Star

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5 hours ago, Griff said:

Since C. Sharps was formed when the partnership that was Shiloh broke up... I don't see that as happening.  

Well that can't be since C sharps was founded in 1979 and Shiloh was founded in 1983 there's a four year gap

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25 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I have one, but had to wait two years for it to be built. Would be great to skip to the front of the line whenever I wanted. 

talk to Bill Goodman of Shiloh Ballard, For $200 he bumps about 14 months off the wait. well worth it. the wait ends up being 6-10 months instead of two years. 

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Cholla,

 

I personally like the 40-65 just a bit better than the 45-70.  Because recoil on the 40-65 is only about 80% of an equivalent load in 45-70.  Without a doubt, 45-70 is the easiest cartridge to find components (brass, bullets, wads, etc) for.  I've shot both guns in formal long range matches, at distances up to 550 yards.  With either rifle, I was able to stay on a 28 inch steel gong, at 550 yards.   If you are concerned how far the rifles will shoot, the taller staff on my 45-70 will allow a zero setting a bit past 1200 yards.  That distance would depend on your bullet weight and powder load.  On my 40-65, I have a shorter staff, good for at least 800 yards.  A couple of times I shot the 45-70 up on the mountains.  Had the sight elevator set all the way to the top.  The rifle was reaching waaaay out there, which convinces me the 1200 max range figure is valid.

 

Both my rifles are made by C. Sharps.  Both are in superb condition, and have their original barrels.  Both rifles have only been shot with lead bullets.  They look as good as the day they left the factory.  If you are interested in either gun, you may contact me at:  kuylaars@msn.com

 

To (the Original) Lumpy Grits.  Nice to see you still around on the wire.  Thanks for the bump on the rifle....

 

Dutch Al

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The std chamber Shiloh cuts, works very well with PP and GG bullets.

I have many targets to prove this.

The .45-70 is a great round to learn BP loading with, and is very forgiving.

Same for the .45-90. -_-

OLG

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1 hour ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

Well that can't be since C sharps was founded in 1979 and Shiloh was founded in 1983 there's a four year gap

Hmmm... and their website sez founded in 1975, and they've "... been in the Sharps rifle business for over 35 years..." maybe more convoluted that we both figure.

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1 hour ago, Griff said:

Hmmm... and their website sez founded in 1975, and they've "... been in the Sharps rifle business for over 35 years..." maybe more convoluted that we both figure.

 

 

Could very well be. I did read that the Shiloh company has been sold a couple times and moved once. From their web site they started their own foundry in 1996 so prior to that they were farming that out. 

So lets leave it at Shiloh and C Sharps has been around for a while and have had a very mixed relationship 

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5 hours ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

talk to Bill Goodman of Shiloh Ballard, For $200 he bumps about 14 months off the wait. well worth it. the wait ends up being 6-10 months instead of two years. 

I did discover him after I had already ordered mine and might use him in the future. However, owning Shiloh would be even better

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10 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I did discover him after I had already ordered mine and might use him in the future. However, owning Shiloh would be even better

 X2 on Bill Goodman. Great person to deal with......

OLG

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If I was going to start new it would be a 40-65.

It will do everything the 45-70 will do. Out to 500 yards.

 

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When I bought my first Sharps 1874, I had the choice of Shiloh, or C Sharps.  At that time, Shiloh was quoting a 4 year wait for their rifle.  Or I could go across the street and get a C Sharps in 6 months.  I  went to C Sharps, and met with John Schoffstall.  John helped me order an 1874 rifle, a 45-70.  John was very helpful, offering guidance, but not pushing me into some choice.  He is a great guy, and I really like him.  When the rifle arrived, it was really nice.  Well built, really good wood to metal fit.  Perhaps a year later, I met a shooter at our range, with two Shiloh Sharps.  I looked over his rifles, and they didn't look any better than my C. Sharps.  John Schoffstall's estimate of 6 months was incorrect.  He delivered the rifle to me in just over 5 months!  At the time C. Sharps built my rifles, they were using Badger barrels.  Badger had a reputation for producing fine, high quality match barrels, but unfortunately they went out of business.  The good news is, I have Badger barrels on both my rifles.  And they do shoot.  It don't get much better than that.

 

When I was looking to buy a 40 caliber rifle, I had read about the 40 Sharps Straight.  It was highly praised by some BPCR shooters.  When I talked to John Schoffstall, I asked for his recommendation on which 40 caliber cartridge.  John told me the 40-70 SS was indeed a great cartridge, but he told me it wasn't very forgiving of differences in loading tolerances.  John said the most forgiving 40 caliber cartridge was the 40-65.  I decided to go with his recommendation.  John was true to his word, the 40-65 is an easy cartridge to load for.  And it shoots every bit as good as the 45-70.  So what's not to like about that?  I can't speak for really long range, but the 40-65 works quite well up to 550 yards. 

 

When I read the above thread, about Shiloh charging $200 to bump someone up on the waiting list, I found that disgusting.  When a person orders a rifle, and is quoted a delivery time, it seems unethical (if true) they would let someone jump ahead of you for a fee.  About 17 or 18 years back, I corresponded with a gentleman on the SASS wire.  He related his experience with Shiloh to me.  He had paid a deposit, and received a delivery date of approximately two years.  He then said that every six months or so, Shiloh would notify him that the delivery date had been bumped out, and if he wanted to stay on the waiting list, he would have to pay more deposit.  I am repeating this as hearsay, but based on other stories I've heard about Shiloh, I have no reason to doubt his story.  he said it took him more than 4 years to get the rifle he ordered.  SHEEESH!  I just couldn't deal with junk like that. 

 

Needless to say, I went across the street to C. Sharps, and never once regretted my decision.  The folks at C Sharps are just great to deal with.  They've never said a thing to me that wasn't 100% true.  They were very helpful, working with me and advising me so I would get the features I needed on a rifle.  I've had a lot of enjoyment from shooting those rifles, and I credit their assistance with contributing to that.  

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