T. O. duties

[Dusty Devil Dale]

SHB, P. 19:

The role of the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator is to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire...". It then goes into the virtues and pitfalls of coaching, and never really returns to lay out the specific  T. O. role and duties. 

 

That is fine, as far as it goes, but perhaps it should also at least describe the operation of the timer.  Timing the shooter and conveying the time to score keepers seems at least as important as coaching and/or assisting.    

In matches, and watching closely, I don't often see the T. O.s watching the timer as the last shot is fired.   They are typically watching the gun and its handling, coaching, or duplicating the role of spotters. 

 

I know the SHB strongly urges shooters to attend the RO 1&2 courses which do go into more detail, as did the RO manuals in the past.   But I had been given the impression that the new SHB was written to replace and encompass those other written guidance documents into a single document.   Am I mistaken about that?  If I am correct, then the current SHB description is awfully brief and incomplete, and no current SASS document really lay's out the detail of the T. O. job.  

Fortunately T. O. s have all taken the classes, so this is just about SHB rhetoric and completeness.   Maybe a non-issue.  The SHB language just seems to get diverted onto a "coaching" tangent, and never returns to the duty description.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Quote

FORWARD

This revised and updated version of the SASS Shooter’s Handbook contains sections and appendices that were moved from the RO–I course materials in order to have a single document covering the primary rules, regulations, conventions, and procedures. It is also intended to be a supplemental reference to the Range Officer Courses. 

SHB p.iv

 

The Range Officer Training Course (RO2) includes a discussion of how to hold and operate the timing device in the practical portion of the course.

 

 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

24 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.iv

Thx v. much for your prompt response.

Question:  Do the other previous detailed duty descriptions still exist in official documents, or now only in the course curriculum?  It really seems like the detail of these duties should be written down someplace centrally.   Maybe I'm off base here.  If so just tell me so. Thx again.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Thx v. much for your prompt response.

Question:  Do the other previous detailed duty descriptions still exist in official documents, or now only in the course curriculum?  It really seems like the detail of these duties should be written down someplace centrally.   Maybe I'm off base here.  If so just tell me so. Thx again.  

 

The RO1 & RO2 Courses both cover the RO positions and duties in more detail.

Those course materials are "official documents" and are often utilized for more detailed reference.

[Assassin]

There are plenty of videos on social media that show shooters navigating a scenario. Most of the TO's in those videos don't know how to hold the timer, never look to see if the timer is working, and assume they only need to pick up the last shot. They watch the targets, count misses, and are not focused on the guns. When they are informed about their misdeeds they become defensive. Just because they have an RO2 pin doesn't make them a good TO. No one is perfect, typically a good TO can only stay focused enough for 3-4 shooters. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

5 minutes ago, Assassin said:

There are plenty of videos on social media that show shooters navigating a scenario. Most of the TO's in those videos don't know how to hold the timer, never look to see if the timer is working, and assume they only need to pick up the last shot. They watch the targets, count misses, and are not focused on the guns. When they are informed about their misdeeds they become defensive. Just because they have an RO2 pin doesn't make them a good TO. No one is perfect, typically a good TO can only stay focused enough for 3-4 shooters. 

It's been my experience that at the monthly match level you're going to get variability in the competence of TO's.  There can be a lot of reasons for that, some of which are avoidable and some of which aren't.  If you've got a match with 15 people, your options for TO are limited.

 

It's also been my experience that at matches above the club level in the southeast MDs put quite a bit of thought into who their PMs are.   Those PMs are then selective about who gets their hands on the timers.  

 

You're correct that an RO pin of any kind doesn't guarantee a good TO, but I believe it's a good step in that direction and justifiably should be a requirement.

[Hoss]

there is a lot to do when TOing.  its an art as much as a science! 

With the exception of # 1, may not be in order

1) safely assit shooter with empahsis on SAFETY!

2) assess shooter before stage for shotgun shells, and if they appear "ready"

3) dont ask if they understand the scenario (newer shoters will tell it to you)  rather say "when shooter ready give starting line"

4) instructions are gennerally to be on shooters strong side, over his shoulder. I try to also take into account which way shooter will be moving. I dont want to be in his way, so if other shoulder is better, thats where i'll position myself.

5) count the shots!

6) as shooter puts long guns down check for clear actions

7) make sure spotters are identified,  ready and attentive

8) know your shooter if at all possible.  some are hard of hearing and require a tap when beeper goes off.  some need more coaching than others. some want no coaching at all. 

9) watch the timer to make sure it is recording shots.

10) after last shot put finger over mic so it does not pick up shots from adjacent stages

11) show to shooter and call time

11) poll spotters.  never "argue" for a miss.  if a spotter claimes he saw and edger than confirm if you know. if you dont know, dont say anythong, just ask the spotters what THEY saw. 

12) assess misses/penalties.  Be fair. call what they did. if you are not sure, then no call.  if you are sure, make the call. 

13) pass info to scorekeeper

14) make sure stage is ready for next shooter

15) NEXT SHOOTER!

there may be and probably are other things that TO has to be aware of.  its a demanding position.  TO should not have to also pick up brass, reset shotgun targets etc.  5-6 shooters really ought to be max.

[Hoss]

6 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It's been my experience that at the monthly match level you're going to get variability in the competence of TO's.  There can be a lot of reasons for that, some of which are avoidable and some of which aren't.  If you've got a match with 15 people, your options for TO are limited.

 

It's also been my experience that at matches above the club level in the southeast MDs put quite a bit of thought into who their PMs are.   Those PMs are then selective about who gets their hands on the timers.  

 

You're correct that an RO pin of any kind doesn't guarantee a good TO, but I believe it's a good step in that direction and justifiably should be a requirement.

Capt bill, I agree that at a monthly with 15 shooters you may get less than ideal TOs.  but if a newer shooter is willing to try, then more expereinced shooters should be encouraging.  thats how good TOs are made.  If they make a mistake, maybe tell them later about it.  I dont mind constructive critisim of my TOing.  What I dont like is having a shooter complain about "silly" things.  too much delay, not enough delay, too close, not close enough, too loud, not loud enough, etc. 

[Tennessee williams]

3 hours ago, Hoss said:

 

9) watch the timer to make sure it is recording shots.

10) after last shot put finger over mic so it does not pick up shots from adjacent stages

 

I'd say but don't stop somebody because the timer hasn't picked up a shot yet. Bad to be stopped in the middle of a good run because the T.O. doesn't understand it's the last shot time that counts. Id also say make sure you see the last shot time. Especially before you cover the mic. Ive seen that pick up as another shot!

[Hoss]

5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I'd say but don't stop somebody because the timer hasn't picked up a shot yet. Bad to be stopped in the middle of a good run because the T.O. doesn't understand it's the last shot time that counts. Id also say make sure you see the last shot time. Especially before you cover the mic. Ive seen that pick up as another shot!

I would not stop a shooter because the timer missed a shot. But if it was obviously malfunctioning then I likely would between guns. 

 

And yes, look at timer before/as you cover the mic. 

[Tennessee williams]

27 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I would not stop a shooter because the timer missed a shot. But if it was obviously malfunctioning then I likely would between guns. 

 

And yes, look at timer before/as you cover the mic. 

What is obviously malfunctioning? Just trying to get on the same page. Do you mean not picking up the rifle and possibly pistols? Cause it could possibly pick up the shotgun.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

monthly matches are great times to get that brand new RO's feet wet.  The new TO can be shadowed by an experienced RO who can step in if/when needed.

 

The new ones need to get OTJ training somewhere and EOT is not the place

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

let the shooter finish the course of fire, and watch the timer on the last shots,,, if it's broken, reshoot,  if you managed to get the last shots you haven't messed with the shooter...

 

I don't look at the timer until the last shots being fired, all others have no consequence....

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Here's one reason to look at the timer during the run -

If you are making a mistake with the positioning of the timer such that shot volumes you can normally pick up are not recording as shots this time, you may be able to correct something about where you are holding the timer to get accurate readings.  If you wait till the very last couple of shots to check, you've got little chance to improve your positioning.  As you gain lots of experience with positions of timer needed for different props and firearms, you will need to check this less often, because you will usually know when you can have problems.

 

Second reason -

A malfunction on the last gun type shot can lead to not having as many shots fired as you expected.  You really need to be checking that you are still picking up shots as each gun type finishes, because next gun type can fail to fire for several reasons.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

fwiw,,, I start with my strong hand, usually,  and after the beep it goes to my left hand so that my "claw" is available to grab the shooter if needed.    and changes back for the last firearm... 

[Assassin]

13 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

let the shooter finish the course of fire, and watch the timer on the last shots,,, if it's broken, reshoot,  if you managed to get the last shots you haven't messed with the shooter...

 

I don't look at the timer until the last shots being fired, all others have no consequence....

When that last gun fails, this theory doesn't work very well. Seen it happen more than once.

[Tennessee williams]

I agree with being cognizant of the fact the timer is picking up shots. But, I'm not doing it to stop the shooter and restart them. Just for the occasion when a gun fails to know if the last shot was captured or not. To stop the shooter because you see shots not picking up even if it is the whole rifle string and or pistol string is no good. Get closer and try to pick up the shotgun. If it doesn't pick up, reshoot. We also cant watch the timer every shot and also watch the shooter every shot. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

I agree with being cognizant of the fact the timer is picking up shots. But, I'm not doing it to stop the shooter and restart them. Just for the occasion when a gun fails to know if the last shot was captured or not. To stop the shooter because you see shots not picking up even if it is the whole rifle string and or pistol string is no good. Get closer and try to pick up the shotgun. If it doesn't pick up, reshoot. We also cant watch the timer every shot and also watch the shooter every shot. 

Why not?

 

[Tennessee williams]

Bwahahahaha