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Moe T Vator

Why are Leather Covers Allowed on SXS Shotguns but not Rifles

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Howdy Y'all,

 

Why is it that

"A slide on leather cover to protect the offhand from barrel heat or as a repair is allowed on side by side, lever action, and single shot shotguns"

 

yet*

 

"Leather on the grip surface of the fore end of a pump shotgun or any rifle is not allowed"

 

SHB

Stocks and Grips

p.35

 

The reason I ask is last weekend we were doing an open shoot off in Cajon. Basically you could call out anyone and anyone could call you out.

It was a great time, but something happened that I have yet to experience yet. After doing multiple shoots and in combination with the California Sun, my barrel got so hot that I couldn't even touch the metal (and I wasn't even shooting black powder) for more than a few seconds. One of my pards even branded his arm on his barrel. The cowgirl I was with couldn't even carry it to and from the tables, and she's tough enough to put up with me on a daily basis.

 

So, my question is, why do we make this distinction between one long gun and the others?

 

R,

MTV

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
fix title

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3 minutes ago, Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485 said:

I believe the leather cover that slides on a double predates SASS, and was in use during the era we portray. Others probably did not.  

Has nothing to do with the rule... And a lot of stuff existed in the late 19th century... But we are not a period correct game;)

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What you mean .. "WE" .. Bub.  SASS made that distinction.  You know, those folks who make the rules.  Them.  It's their game, they get to make the rules.  If you really really think the rule should change, make the suggestion to your Territorial Governor to ask for a change.  "WE" here, can't help ya.  If you really wanna have some fun, I'll Letcha hold my Henry on the way to unloading.  Besides ... aren't ya suppose to hang onto the wood part of the fore stock??  Not the Barrel??  Or grab it by the receiver??  Simple that.  Think I must. 

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Splinter forearms on doubles, combined with black powder loads, just about demands something be allowed to avoid contacting the barrels on those guns.   87 shotguns have little wood up front, too.

 

Can you name a rifle that actually needs a leather barrel cover (other than the Henry)?  And convince me that the leather would not hinder a good sight picture, or stop a Henry follower's motion?

 

In general, I've found asking "Why?" about most SASS rules gets little in the way of satisfaction.

 

Asking "How" (to use the rules to your benefit) may provide some, however.

 

Good luck, GJ

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9 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

87 shotguns have little wood up front, too.

 

 

Not elegant but kind of a feasibility test.  Functioned well. 

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The reason was initially for sxs BP shooters. The barrels get very hot on a long shotgun string.

Edited by Snakebite

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13 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

The reason was initially for sxs BP shooters. The barrels get very hot on a long shotgun string.

 

Rifles and pistols get hot too.   I shot my new to me nickel plated Colt SAA in 45Colt in a match with BlackMZ loads.  I got home to find an ugly scraped area on top strap near the cylinder gap.  I asked for guidance on the Colt forum.  They suggested using Flitz paste to rub it out.  Turned out,  it wasn't a scrape but some kind of material melted onto the gun - probably from the carpet used at the unloading table. 

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I've been shooting BP in this game for 25 yrs, and know that guns can get hot. However the Shotgun gets the hottest, and the finger tips often touch the barrel. The leather slides for the SXS fore End were the first thing to make appearances, and it was expanded to other leather wrap types. Using leather on the 97 was considered an advantage allowing the a shooter to rack the gun easier using the heel of the hand. 

 

Snakebite

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16 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

How are you going to work a pump action with leather around the grip and barrel?

This scenario would not apply to an 1897 or a Lightning rifle unless the leather was placed only on the pump, thus defeating the purpose of protecting your hands from a hot barrel.

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15 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

Good reason to wear leather gloves. 

this is a good recommendation to prevent burns, but does not answer my question

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14 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

What you mean .. "WE" .. Bub.  SASS made that distinction.  You know, those folks who make the rules.  Them.  It's their game, they get to make the rules.  If you really really think the rule should change, make the suggestion to your Territorial Governor to ask for a change.  "WE" here, can't help ya.  If you really wanna have some fun, I'll Letcha hold my Henry on the way to unloading.  Besides ... aren't ya suppose to hang onto the wood part of the fore stock??  Not the Barrel??  Or grab it by the receiver??  Simple that.  Think I must. 

"We" implies all of us to include the rule makers.

 

Can you provide me with the formal process for submitting change to the rule book that would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Splinter forearms on doubles, combined with black powder loads, just about demands something be allowed to avoid contacting the barrels on those guns.   87 shotguns have little wood up front, too.

 

Can you name a rifle that actually needs a leather barrel cover (other than the Henry)?  And convince me that the leather would not hinder a good sight picture, or stop a Henry follower's motion?

 

In general, I've found asking "Why?" about most SASS rules gets little in the way of satisfaction.

 

Asking "How" (to use the rules to your benefit) may provide some, however.

 

Good luck, GJ

My Winchester 1873 benefits from having a wrap around the forearm. the leather is thin enough to completely remain out of sight picture yet adds a barrier of protection against a hot barrel when wrapping my (or someone with hands smaller than mine) fingers all the way around to safely carry it.

 

So How can we apply the rule specifically for sxs shotgun covers to rifles in order to prevent an unsafe situation?

 

 

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3 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

 

Not elegant but kind of a feasibility test.  Functioned well. 

how can we use this technique to legally apply to non SXS long guns (barring pump actions)

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A

2 hours ago, Snakebite said:

I've been shooting BP in this game for 25 yrs, and know that guns can get hot. However the Shotgun gets the hottest, and the finger tips often touch the barrel. The leather slides for the SXS fore End were the first thing to make appearances, and it was expanded to other leather wrap types. Using leather on the 97 was considered an advantage allowing the a shooter to rack the gun easier using the heel of the hand. 

 

Snakebite

and it is that wrap of the fingers to aim or wrapping a hand around a barrel that I'm referring to. Those rifle barrels are smoking by the end.

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Howdy

 

I've been shooting Black Powder in this game for a long time.

 

Yes, a rifle barrel gets hot, but it does not get hot as quickly as a shotgun barrel does.

 

That's because the walls of a rifle barrel are generally much thicker than the walls of a shotgun barrel.

 

The heat propagates through the thin steel of a shotgun barrel much quicker than it does through the thicker steel of a shotgun barrel.

 

I have been wearing one glove for years. Long enough that the Michael Jackson jokes have finally stopped.

 

The little splinter stock on my old Stevens hammer gun means that my finger tips are almost always in contact with the barrels. On a hot summer day they get too hot to hold while I am still shooting it, so the leather glove is a must.

 

shotgunstance.jpg

 

 

 

 

I can fire ten rounds out of my Henry and still hold onto the barrel because it does not heat up so fast. But by the time I am heading to the unloading table it has heated up and is too hot to hold.

 

riflestance.jpg

 

 

 

 

So it is always a juggling act to grab both long guns, one with the ungloved hand and make my way to the unloading table. I usually grab the Henry by its stock and point it skywards.

 

Luckily my toasty hot pistols are already in their holsters when I am walking to the ULT.

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All these years...and we've survived just fine without a rifle forend wrap...how did we do it??

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I've only been shooting black powder is SASS for 13 years, so not as long as many.

My rifle (1873 or Marlin) barrel can get pretty warm but there's plenty of wood to hold on to. When carrying it to the ULT, if needed, I just carry it by the wrist like Driftwood. 

I guess I look at things like hot barrels as the cost of shooting black powder. If it was easy, everyone would do it.B)

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2 hours ago, Moe T Vator said:

My Winchester 1873 benefits from having a wrap around the forearm.

 

Well, I've got several of the same model, shoot real BP in them at times, in 100 degree weather at times, and never dreamed of putting a leather cover on the barrel. 

 

Grab the wood, rather than the metal.   THAT would be within the rules.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Moe-T-Vator  .... Might I suggest YOU contact SASS and ask??  "Cause there ya go again, dragging ALL of us into your beef.  Mostly I guess if you exercise reasonable care in the handling of your guns, you won't be injuring your delicate hands and fingers.  

 

PLUS ONE too Phantom.

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2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Moe-T-Vator  .... Might I suggest YOU contact SASS and ask??  "Cause there ya go again, dragging ALL of us into your beef.  Mostly I guess if you exercise reasonable care in the handling of your guns, you won't be injuring your delicate hands and fingers.  

 

PLUS ONE too Phantom.

Exactly, we're cowboys not woosies.:D, we can't just change the rules cause one  shooter has soft hands, find a way round it.:P

As Phantom said, we've managed for almost 30 years!!!!

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On 9/6/2019 at 10:54 AM, Moe T Vator said:

"We" implies all of us to include the rule makers.

 

Can you provide me with the formal process for submitting change to the rule book that would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Talk with your TG. They are the body that can start the process. 

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16 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Exactly, we're cowboys not woosies.:D, we can't just change the rules cause one  shooter has soft hands, find a way round it.:P

As Phantom said, we've managed for almost 30 years!!!!

but... Phantom was wrong!  It's been longer than 30 years!!! ;)

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On 9/6/2019 at 8:54 AM, Moe T Vator said:

 

Can you provide me with the formal process for submitting change to the rule book that would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

BTW - "or any rifle" was added to the rule in 2017 as a clarification.

It was already "illegal" due the modification not being listed as "approved".

I personally don't foresee any additional changes being made.

FWIW.

 

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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On 9/6/2019 at 12:56 PM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

I have been wearing one glove for years. Long enough that the Michael Jackson jokes have finally stopped.

 

They actually became Driftwood Johnson jokes instead...

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On 9/8/2019 at 2:08 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

 

BTW - "or any rifle" was added to the rule in 2017 as a clarification.

It was already "illegal" due the modification not being listed as "approved".

I personally don't foresee any additional changes being made.

FWIW.

 

 

 

Thanks PaleWolf! this was what I was hunting 

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On 9/8/2019 at 1:54 PM, Griff said:

but... Phantom was wrong!  It's been longer than 30 years!!! ;)

 

On 9/7/2019 at 6:57 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Moe-T-Vator  .... Might I suggest YOU contact SASS and ask??  "Cause there ya go again, dragging ALL of us into your beef.  Mostly I guess if you exercise reasonable care in the handling of your guns, you won't be injuring your delicate hands and fingers.  

 

PLUS ONE too Phantom.

Hey, you know what thats a great suggestion! I gave them a call and we are working on it. The folks at HQ are some great great pards!! 

And as for the beef* come on out to Cali and I'll happily cook you a steak as a thank you for your +30 years of cowboy service. 

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Hey Moe T when are you shipping out to the sand box? I forgot to ask you on Saturday?

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And that glove that Driftwood Johnson has in the photos was white when he started using it!

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On 9/10/2019 at 4:36 PM, Yul Lose said:

Hey Moe T when are you shipping out to the sand box? I forgot to ask you on Saturday?

Howdy Yul!

 

I leave in the early spring. 

Unfortunately i cannot take my ruger as my sidearm! 

See you at escondido on the 5th!

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On 9/6/2019 at 11:13 AM, Moe T Vator said:

My Winchester 1873 benefits from having a wrap around the forearm. the leather is thin enough to completely remain out of sight picture yet adds a barrier of protection against a hot barrel when wrapping my (or someone with hands smaller than mine) fingers all the way around to safely carry it.

 

So How can we apply the rule specifically for sxs shotgun covers to rifles in order to prevent an unsafe situation?

 

 

 

The addition of the leather wrap on approved guns is allowed to protect the shooter’s hand while shooting. The 1860 Henry, the 1887/1901 lever action shotgun, and the SxS shotgun all suffer from a lack of adequate protection in that area. Most other long guns do not.  The application of the rule is there for while shooting the gun.

 

The rules makers don’t care how you carry your hot long gun so long as you do it safely. 

 

For years I’ve carried my Henry and my 1901 or any of my doubles by the wrist of the stock to avoid burning my digits after a string of smokey Black Powder blasts.

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