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On 8/30/2019 at 2:52 PM, Assassin said:

Marketing needs to take place in order to get the word out. 

 

+100000000000000000000000

 

Word of mouth is insufficient. SASS needs to reinvest in itself or it will die.  The current approach of leaving it up to individual clubs and the the membership at large is not going to cut it.

 

A plug or tie into the Red Dead video games, an ad in Guns of the Old West, or similar magazine that would reach potential new members  would be a good start. 

Edited by Sedalia Dave

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19 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

They don’t lease Founders Ranch on an annual basis, or so I’m told. The local clubs that shoot there have their own arrangements as does the shotgun sports.

FR also hosts a USPSA club  and is a popular range for CCW qualifications.  Ranges and classrooms for CCW qualification are not readily available in the ABQ metro area and FR helps fill the need.

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On 8/30/2019 at 7:27 PM, Assassin said:

Yes, there was a good turnout. However, the shooters are being beat up for cash. One cannot continue to beat up the membership, one example was charging spouses to watch the match. I'm sure there were other examples. Even without SASS there will be some form of Cowboy Shooting. None of us wants SASS to fail, we just want it fixed and to be prosperous. 

 

Are you referring to the price of a Guest badge? ("...charging spouses to watch the match.")

 

Seems like you were provided with incorrect information, Assassin. Definitely a misunderstanding or incorrect assumption. No one is every charged to come and watch the match (except for the public on 2 days when we amp up the entertainment.)

A guest badge must be purchased if a guest plans on sticking around after 5pm for any of the evening activities. We provide/host activities and receptions almost nightly that include free food, drink, etc. for our attendees - additionally, due to our event permits we have to keep evening activities "private" for only our registered guests- Hence, the "Guest badge". 

 

I have always been mindful of the "Value of the cost of admission", so to speak. I'm confident that- if you come to EOT and actually attend all of the scheduled events offered to you, you'll certainly feel like you got your money's worth. 

 

Misty

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Probably was the guest badge that we heard complaints about. Some folks just want to watch their significant others shoot the match and don't attend other activities and I was told they were expected to pay additionally for that. I don't/can't attend due to our match being the following weekend. Therefore, I only hear the scuttle from those that attended EOT. You are welcome to attend Hell On Wheels along with your other personnel. The Judge told me he'd like to see some of you come up here since we haven't had anyone from HQ come up for many years.

 

Edited by Assassin
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On 8/29/2019 at 8:46 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That said, EOT in Norco brought a lot of attention to our game and that's gone.

From what I read and hear, you are 100% correct.  So maybe bringing it back is worth considering. 

Later Added:   If not EOT, then another nationally promoted event.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

From what I read and hear, you are 100% correct.  So maybe bringing it back is worth considering.   

Norco can’t handle it.

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6 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Norco can’t handle it.

 

True - I started my SASS days in Norco back in '96 (attended as a spectator EOT in '97 & 98) - went back to visit some pards back in 2013. It has changed much since then and getting more crowded.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Edited by Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274

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9 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

From what I read and hear, you are 100% correct.  So maybe bringing it back is worth considering. 

Later Added:   If not EOT, then another nationally promoted event.  

No thanks. End Of Trail at Founders Ranch is built and produced FOR SASS SHOOTERS. Improvements are made every year and the ranch is a very special place. Sometimes things are remembered more fondly that they actually were. 

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31 minutes ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

No thanks. End Of Trail at Founders Ranch is built and produced FOR SASS SHOOTERS. Improvements are made every year and the ranch is a very special place. Sometimes things are remembered more fondly that they actually were. 

Heyya Deuce,

 

You are right...over time we tend to forget the bad and only remember the good. However, one simple fact that can't be ignored is that the venue in So. Cal brought in a TON of spectators. It's these spectators that brought in media...and both the spectators and media brought in new members.

 

Making the current membership that attends EOT to shoot happy is being done very well...but the venue doesn't seem conducive to bringing in spectators nor media...and that does not help expand our membership.

 

I would think that this issue would be on the top of the boards agenda...for the last 15 years...

 

Phantom

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On 8/30/2019 at 4:27 PM, Yul Lose said:

Good points but how many non Californians will show up? I have my doubts about Chorro Valley being large enough to handle it.

Just a comment, CVR certainly has more camping space that Norco ever had. I attended all EOTs at Norco from 1993 until the end. I didn't much care for the facilities, but the event was so spectacular and exciting that it covered up the fact that it was a less than stellar facility. The fact that it had a huge population that was somewhat local to draw from really did put it over the top.  Everyone in So Cal is looking for something to do, and it was convenient to drive out and take a look see, and they did. Those days are gone, and I'm glad that I was lucky enough to have participated in them. No doubt that the total numbers are down. Anyone that does not acknowledge that fact is just not being realistic. It might have been considered already, but it seems that if EOT were to move around to Choice locations it might draw more attention. An adequate facility at a Prime location could be leased every year and the Show could begin. There is no doubt that California's Central Coast is one of the Prime areas in the US to visit. It has the best weather to be had and plenty of places to visit up and down the coast that are within a easy and beautiful drive alone one of American most scenic routes, US. Plenty of Wine tasting at the many wineries just a quick drive away. The Shooting facility is at least as good, if not better than it was at the Old EOT.  It would take a huge commitment from the local club, and even more support from SASS in the form of warm bodies to do the work. But there might be a possibility of drawing a lot of help from the huge College crowd just 12 mi down the road. I'm sure that there are other Prime spots that could also be considered on a rotational basis.  But moving around would certainly give more exposure to key locations around the country. There are a lot of places that folks would rather visit than the current location. It might not be feasible, and is just a thought, but as nice as the Founders Ranch is, the location hurts it. The ONLY reason that they get what they do get is because they are the Worlds Championship, and shooters have absolutely no other choice than to attend if they want to go to the World Championship. There is no other reason to be there.  If that draw were to be coupled with a place that folks would actually like to visit,  it might enjoy a resurgence.

 

Snakebite 

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Corona, Crappy camping facilities, dust, and the lovely smell of cow crap and methane. Also fires in the berms! That was what people talked about also.

SASS/WB/Founders isn't moving the EOT venue. The land is bought, headquarters has moved, a lot of money has been spent on making it what it is. I'll offer that EOT is the largest revenue generating event they have.  SASS leases the range there, SASS would have to lease the range no matter where it goes. Ask Winter Range about Ben Avery.  Did the Founders/WB screw up moving to New Mexico? I think the lower cost for the land and struggling to find a location that was more "convenient" for the shooters across the nation caused them to overlook the altitude, the lack of accommodations close by, the weather, first years mud and snow lost them some shooters returning,

As to attracting "younger" indoor cowpokes, put yourself in their shoes when you were 20 to 40 years old. College, getting a job to make ends meet, marriage, kids, house, furniture, etc.. When I was 30 I spent my weekends taking my kids to their games, no time for my hobbies. And who in that generation that can't come up with the cash for a down payment on a house can come up with $3,000 for guns, clothes, ammo etc. I'd buy an X-Box and try to have some "me" time after the kids are in bed or when I'm not worn out from just getting by.

SASS took off because the boomers were coming into their 40's and 50's, kids were gone, careers established and so maybe there was some "casual hobby cash" laying around. And we had time to ourselves for a change.

Marketing, we have advertised on TV, the Chronical, bought tables at gun shows, set-up outside Cabellla's, radio spots, handed out flyers at other shoots to no effect on attendance to our annual shoot and or an increase in club membership. Like most we loose some we gain some.

Doing the math 100, 17 to 25 year olds joining SASS does not stop the bleeding.

Ike

Edited by irish ike, SASS #43615

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45 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Just a comment, CVR certainly has more camping space that Norco ever had. I attended all EOTs at Norco from 1993 until the end. I didn't much care for the facilities, but the event was so spectacular and exciting that it covered up the fact that it was a less than stellar facility. The fact that it had a huge population that was somewhat local to draw from really did put it over the top.  Everyone in So Cal is looking for something to do, and it was convenient to drive out and take a look see, and they did. Those days are gone, and I'm glad that I was lucky enough to have participated in them. No doubt that the total numbers are down. Anyone that does not acknowledge that fact is just not being realistic. It might have been considered already, but it seems that if EOT were to move around to Choice locations it might draw more attention. An adequate facility at a Prime location could be leased every year and the Show could begin. There is no doubt that California's Central Coast is one of the Prime areas in the US to visit. It has the best weather to be had and plenty of places to visit up and down the coast that are within a easy and beautiful drive alone one of American most scenic routes, US. Plenty of Wine tasting at the many wineries just a quick drive away. The Shooting facility is at least as good, if not better than it was at the Old EOT.  It would take a huge commitment from the local club, and even more support from SASS in the form of warm bodies to do the work. But there might be a possibility of drawing a lot of help from the huge College crowd just 12 mi down the road. I'm sure that there are other Prime spots that could also be considered on a rotational basis.  But moving around would certainly give more exposure to key locations around the country. There are a lot of places that folks would rather visit than the current location. It might not be feasible, and is just a thought, but as nice as the Founders Ranch is, the location hurts it. The ONLY reason that they get what they do get is because they are the Worlds Championship, and shooters have absolutely no other choice than to attend if they want to go to the World Championship. There is no other reason to be there.  If that draw were to be coupled with a place that folks would actually like to visit,  it might enjoy a resurgence.

 

Snakebite 

CVR doesn’t have near the camping space that Founders Ranch does and that was my point. The central coast is great but how many non Californians will show up? Like it or not EOT is going to take place in New Mexico SASS, The Wild Bunch have all made big investments in facilities to be there. California’s gun laws and perceived gun laws will keep many competitors from out of state home because the risk or perceived risk is just to great.

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29 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

CVR doesn’t have near the camping space that Founders Ranch does and that was my point. The central coast is great but how many non Californians will show up? Like it or not EOT is going to take place in New Mexico SASS, The Wild Bunch have all made big investments in facilities to be there. California’s gun laws and perceived gun laws will keep many competitors from out of state home because the risk or perceived risk is just to great.

I didn't say that it had more camping than Founders Ranch, or that it was a better facility. I compared it to Norco. Further more, I was not intending to "Sell" the idea of relocating to CVR, I was responding to the doubt that posted as to the capability of the CVR location. No it does not have the room that Founders Ranch has, but the fact that it was done at Norco just proves that it can be done elsewhere too.  My point was to introduce the possibility of moving it around to other facilities that are located in a more desirable location. Yes, it is indeed now located in NM, and it is a fantastic facility, and they have invested a lot of money in it, but that does not mean that it is a sound business decision to continue it there. Maybe yes, maybe no.  There are two aspects here. One is the Game, the other is the private business of SASS. They are usually tied directly together, but in fact, the Business will always Trump the Game. It always has, and always will. I agree that it will never move unless the WB/BOD decides that it would be more profitable to move. That may very well never happen, but any business must consider all possibilities.  

Edited by Snakebite
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I haven't been many places. However, I always look at photos of various ranges.

 

IMO, Norco is a definite "no" for EOT. I think CVR near Morro Bay has more perks.

 

I have been to Founders Ranch. It is a fine venue. However, the World Shooting and Recreational Complex in Sparta, IL is the best venue I've ever seen.

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With the talk about 'best' location etc-

What event today, draws more shooters and spectators-WR of EOT?

Respectfully,

OLG

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

With the talk about 'best' location etc-

What event today, draws more shooters and spectators-WR of EOT?

Respectfully,

OLG

WR...

 

But neither bring the numbers that So Cal brought ... It's all about demographics;)

 

Oh, and money.

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

With the talk about 'best' location etc-

What event today, draws more shooters and spectators-WR of EOT?

Respectfully,

OLG

Do you currently attend either of them or plan to?

 

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1 minute ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Do you currently attend either of them or plan to?

 

Don't know what that has to do with anything.:huh:

I had attended EOT as a spectator in Norco(Won't attend EOT in NM, due to health/heart issues).

Been a visitor to WR a few times, many years ago. 

 

OLG

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3 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

CVR doesn’t have near the camping space that Founders Ranch does and that was my point. The central coast is great but how many non Californians will show up? Like it or not EOT is going to take place in New Mexico SASS, The Wild Bunch have all made big investments in facilities to be there. California’s gun laws and perceived gun laws will keep many competitors from out of state home because the risk or perceived risk is just to great.

I'm surprised this didn't get mentioned sooner.  I suspect there are a significant number of shooters who would choose not to attend for that reason alone.  I know I would.

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm surprised this didn't get mentioned sooner.  I suspect there are a significant number of shooters who would choose not to attend for that reason alone.  I know I would.

Same with Sparta, Ill.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm surprised this didn't get mentioned sooner.  I suspect there are a significant number of shooters who would choose not to attend for that reason alone.  I know I would.

 

There's no law here that stops anyone from bring'n in their cowboy guns.

The PITA today, is out of state folks can't buy ammo here. :angry:

OLG

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3 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Same with Sparta, Ill.

I know Chicago has bad gun laws, but didn't know the whole state did.  For me, NY, NJ, MA, and CA are no go zones.   I'm not going there unless I'm forced to and I'm certainly not carrying any guns with me if I am forced to go there.

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Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

There's no law here that stops anyone from bring'n in their cowboy guns.

The PITA today, is out of state folks can't buy ammo here. :angry:

OLG

The problem isn't a specific law OLG, it's that those states are clearly dangerous for gun owners and many of us don't know the rules that will apply if we bring guns there.  We do know that if we violate those rules we'll be in deep doo-doo.  It's easier to just not go.

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The EOT's held in Norco were incredible. It was a spectacle, crowds were immense, vendors were plentiful and made money.

Entertainment was great, got to rub elbows with celebrities, and loads of fun. Didn't seem like we had so many cliques among shooters.

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3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

I know Chicago has bad gun laws, but didn't know the whole state did.  For me, NY, NJ, MA, and CA are no go zones.   I'm not going there unless I'm forced to and I'm certainly not carrying any guns with me if I am forced to go there.

You forgot Maryland.

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10 minutes ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Do you currently attend either of them or plan to?

 

 

For me (living in Seattle) - too far to drive, and too much of a hassle to fly (with guns and ammo).   I suppose I could fly down just to watch and socialize...but I'm not a good spectator, I want to get in on the action.

 

And when I say "too far to drive", I don't mind driving but I'm not retired - so I'd have to take 2 weeks of vacation to do a one week event.  Which I may do someday, but it would be a "Once in a lifetime".

 

But as others have said, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be with driving my gear into California, so that would be no better.  

 

Of course, a lot of this is "my problem" for living on the edge of civilization - but any event I went to annually would have to be within about a 14 hour one-way drive radius.  900 miles or so.

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

The problem isn't a specific law OLG, it's that those states are clearly dangerous for gun owners and many of us don't know the rules that will apply if we bring guns there.  We do know that if we violate those rules we'll be in deep doo-doo.  It's easier to just not go.

 

Pretty wide 'brush'.... -_-

CVR gets many folks from out of state for their annual and so do other clubs here.

OLG

 

 

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Just now, Assassin said:

You forgot Maryland.

Yeah, I pretty much stay away from any states that border DC. My CCW is honored in 33 states.  None of the states I listed are among those 33.  

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Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Pretty wide 'brush'.... -_-

CVR gets many folks from out of state for their annual and so do other clubs here.

OLG

 

 

I'm not sure what I'm painting.  I think most would accept as true the statement that California has very restrictive gun laws, particularly compared to what we have in the Southeast.  I think it's also true that many people who are not from California realize that the laws there are restrictive, the penalties can be harsh, so the path of least resistance is to not bring guns there.  What part of that is a 'wide brush'?

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2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm not sure what I'm painting.  I think most would accept as true the statement that California has very restrictive gun laws, particularly compared to what we have in the Southeast.  I think it's also true that many people who are not from California realize that the laws there are restrictive, the penalties can be harsh, so the path of least resistance is to not bring guns there.  What part of that is a 'wide brush'?

 

What are these 'penalties' you are referring to?

OLG

 

 

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I'll shoot in CA any time I can.


Great folks and great venues...don't have any gun laws that affect my CAS activities.

 

Phantom

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'll shoot in CA any time I can.


Great folks and great venues...don't have any gun laws that affect my CAS activities.

 

Phantom

 

With you be'n a FFL-Know full well you will do nut'n to jeopardize that. ;)

OLG

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Horse Hocky.. if you want to come shoot a Cowboy  match in Ca. you have no problem doing it. And, I can buy any gun that I want to buy here. No doubt that there are a few places that allow for easier gun sales, but if you think that is going to last, you'd be wrong. Background checks and such WILL become the enforced law everywhere. It's just a matter of time.... and not a long time either.  It really gets me that some folks won't sell a gun to someone in Ca... why, because they are too lazy to get on line and get the shipment approval. If you are not doing something illegal, then just get the approval number and ship it. This idea that you can't do anything in Ca. is just not so. Yeah, it's easier in some places...……….. for now.

 

Snakebite  

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26 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

What are these 'penalties' you are referring to?

OLG

 

 

Let's say I drive into Cali with a loaded handgun in my glove box.  Perfectly legal here in Georgia, no permit needed.  What's the State Trooper who finds that gun going to do?

 

Let's say I stick my revolvers in socks and put them on the back seat to drive from the hotel to the range.  Am I good?

 

Edited to add:'

Some of you that live in restrictive states can pooh pooh other's concerns, but those of us from states like say, Georgia, aren't used to those type rules.  It's pretty easy to forget that what we take for granted at home doesn't apply in Cali.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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15 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

From what I read and hear, you are 100% correct.  So maybe bringing it back is worth considering. 

Later Added:   If not EOT, then another nationally promoted event.  

The Western Divisional attracted 117 shooters last year and very few were from out of state.

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