455 Webley: aka short 45CS

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

Thanks to my local club last weekend I was able to shoot a unique round in the match, 455 Webley.

 

The picture shows the 3 fired cartridges (45LC, 45 ACP, 455 Webley).  455 is shorter than ACP.  Traditionally it was loaded with a 265g bullet at ~600fps.

 

Being a period correct cartridge for SASS it would make for an interesting alternative to 45CS.  Even less case volume/length could make loading lighter bullets quite easy.  Components, while expensive are available from starline and MO bullet Co.  A lever rifle that holds 10 45LCs would hold 13+ 455s. 

 

Either way it was fun to shoot.  The revolver had no noticible difference in recoil compared to 45LC or ACP. It's 100+ year old sights were still dead on and I didn't miss...I still was slow but I didn't miss!

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Cool you get to shoot yer piece. Wonder how the 455s would feed through a rifle...

[Warden Callaway]

From my experience with a variety of Webley,  the rim on the case is too thick to use in a 45 Colt chamber.  Some SAA were chambered in 455 Webley.  

[Willy B.SASS#26902]

I just tried dropping a 455 Webley and the much shorter .450 Eley into a 45 colt Vaquero, Both chambered just fine but I'm not sure if there might not be head spacing problems due to the thinner rim on the Webley and Eley cases.  Next time I get to the range I'm going to have to give them a try.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

All of my Webley's are shaved for .45ACP/.45 Autorim.   Glad you found one in the unaltered caliber.  

 

I really think there should be a place for these pre-1900 design DA revolvers.   I don't know what that place should be.   Allowing them used as Main Match guns as long as they are cocked single action style is probably asking for too much, but some sort of a side match for them would be a good idea.

[Warden Callaway]

1 hour ago, Willy B.SASS#26902 said:

I just tried dropping a 455 Webley and the much shorter .450 Eley into a 45 colt Vaquero, Both chambered just fine but I'm not sure if there might not be head spacing problems due to the thinner rim on the Webley and Eley cases.  Next time I get to the range I'm going to have to give them a try.

 

I'm sorry,  I had a senior moment and got it backwards.  The 455 has a thinner rim thickness - not thicker. 

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

One thing I found interesting was the Webley's ease of loading/unloading.  The revolver is a top break like my Schofields, but the latch is much easier to manipulate.  On reloading, the cam that cycles the extractor star on the Webley seemed to work better than the Schofield as well.  I wonder how much the short 455 case vs 45LC has to do with that.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

May I ask what is the rim thickness of the .455 case?

OLG

[Three Foot Johnson]

Da Web sez .039".

[Warden Callaway]

Old home video I shot with cell phone to show a buddy.

 

 

Our son has all three of the old Webleys right now even though two are mine. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

Hey, a d texaz, I gotta ask, why does my post make you sad?

[Willy B.SASS#26902]

I'd love to be able to shoot my webleys  in a match, This picture is a few years old and a few more have joined the herd, I guess I like the darn things because of the history involved with them. the one on the lower right is an 1892 army that was sold in Bombay in 1893 it's chambered in .476 Webley.

[Warden Callaway]

It's Single Action Shooting Society.   But double action revolvers date back into the early development revolvers and were prominent on the western frontier.  Custer was known to own several Webley double action revolvers and likely had one it the last stand.

 

I'm not for another category but maybe let double action guys shoot in Pike category.  

[Griff]

Hmmmm... I'm thinking SASS stands for something...  I don't recall "double" being part of it.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

If the Webley is shot 'single-action'.

"What difference, does it make?" 

Cool piece of gun history.........

OLG

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Perhaps some of you should start a new org???

 

Something like...the "If I've got a picture of it, it's good to use". The acronym would suck...IIGAPOI...but what the hell.

 

Phantom

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE too Phantom  

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

While the idea of using a pre-1900 DA revolver, if cocked single action style, as a main match gun has some merit, I don't think doing so would really be in the spirit of the game.   That being said, I see no reason why some sort of a side match can't be built around them.   Many of the side matches are built around other guns of the era that are not used in the main match, so why not these?   What form could said side match take?   Only the limits of the imagination are in the way. 

 

This does not require a new category, or a rules change, or any other drastic modification of our game.  It's just another side match that folks are free to participate in or ignore as they see fit.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Hey H. K.,

 

Don't look now.  We tried that side match idea some years back.  It was called "Wild Bunch"   Then SASS got hold of it and eliminated ALL the fun stuff.  Sheesh.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Hey H. K.,

 

Don't look now.  We tried that side match idea some years back.  It was called "Wild Bunch"   Then SASS got hold of it and eliminated ALL the fun stuff.  Sheesh.

EGGGGGZACKLY!!!!!

 

[Warden Callaway]

I'm in no way suggesting double actions be used in any SASS single action categories.   Just a thought of letting them shoot agains Pike. 

 

Gateway cowboys (South of St. Louis) has 4 "Indiana Jones" matches in their schedule that allow double action handguns. Looks like the rules are more like Wild Bunch. 

 

http://www.cowboygass.net/events.html

[Yul Lose]

Cool guns but not single action. At some of our local matches WB or Pike category is allowed, stoked shotguns and such. If you want to stoke your 97 as a Cowboy you have to do it on the clock and get a P. When the WB folks have their rare WB match CAS participants aren’t allowed. So let’s water down CAS even more by allowing DA’s to be used as single actions and how long before we’ll have matches with CAS, Pike/WB and Double Action category.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

25 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Hey H. K.,

 

Don't look now.  We tried that side match idea some years back.  It was called "Wild Bunch"   Then SASS got hold of it and eliminated ALL the fun stuff.  Sheesh.

Oh, I know that.   I remember folks using Weblys, Lugers, 1917's and all sorts of other interesting pre-1918 pistols.   That was a lot of fun!

 

But, there's the difference, I said pre-1900. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

26 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

I'm in no way suggesting double actions be used in any SASS single action categories.   Just a thought of letting them shoot agains Pike. 

 

Gateway cowboys (South of St. Louis) has 4 "Indiana Jones" matches in their schedule that allow double action handguns. Looks like the rules are more like Wild Bunch. 

 

http://www.cowboygass.net/events.html

What the hell does a fish have to do with CAS????

[Ramblin Gambler]

The size is interesting.  For some reason I always thought the webley rounds were big.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

Cool guns but not single action. At some of our local matches WB or Pike category is allowed, stoked shotguns and such. If you want to stoke your 97 as a Cowboy you have to do it on the clock and get a P. When the WB folks have their rare WB match CAS participants aren’t allowed. So let’s water down CAS even more by allowing DA’s to be used as single actions and how long before we’ll have matches with CAS, Pike/WB and Double Action category.

 

No 'P'  on SG stoke'n if it is in the stage write-up, or general club policy-as with Cajon Cowboys.

OLG

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

3 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

No 'P'  on SG stoke'n if it is in the stage write-up, or general club policy-as with Cajon Cowboys.

OLG

 

Very true.   In the about 11 years I've been doing this, I've only seen it written into one stage, and I've only been to 1 club where it was a general policy.

 

This is actually a rule change I would advocate: always allow the stoking of 97's and 87's on the clock.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Very true.   In the about 11 years I've been doing this, I've only seen it written into one stage, and I've only been to 1 club where it was a general policy.

 

This is actually a rule change I would advocate: always allow the stoking of 97's and 87's on the clock.

Not to uncommon out here........

It is fun 

I don't worry about the 'clock'-They time me with a Sundial.........

OLG

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

35 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

The size is interesting.  For some reason I always thought the webley rounds were big.

 

Bullet wise they are quite big.  262g vs your 250/255g in standard 45LC.  Traditional 455 rounds are very pointy cones vs. flatter type for 45LC.  455 also had at the time the "manstopper" round, which was a hunk of lead with a conical cone cut out of it very much like a hollow point. 

 

For SASS use a 455 Webley case with one of the popular LW 45's used in CS would be an even shorter package than CS.  Less case capacity depending on powder used could be a benefit.  If SASS lever guns could be made to run 455s the short case would make for higher capacity without additional length.

[Warden Callaway]

10 minutes ago, The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213 said:

 

Bullet wise they are quite big.  262g vs your 250/255g in standard 45LC.  Traditional 455 rounds are very pointy cones vs. flatter type for 45LC.  455 also had at the time the "manstopper" round, which was a hunk of lead with a conical cone cut out of it very much like a hollow point. 

 

For SASS use a 455 Webley case with one of the popular LW 45's used in CS would be an even shorter package than CS.  Less case capacity depending on powder used could be a benefit.  If SASS lever guns could be made to run 455s the short case would make for higher capacity without additional length.

 

How would you deal with the rim being .020 thinner?  It would be like having .020 extra headspace.

[Warden Callaway]

Someone interested in playing with this cartridge,  Grafs has some on sale!

 

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/77584

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

EGGGGGZACKLY!!!!!

 

Something weird has happened to the universe. This is like the 5th time in a row I've agreed with Phantom!   Of course period double actions and things other than 1911s should be allowed in Wild Bunch.

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

8 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Someone interested in playing with this cartridge,  Grafs has some on sale!

 

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/77584

 

Interesting.  Comes out to $66 for 100.  Buying the components is ~$150 for 100 but that includes 300 additional bullets for reloading.

[Yul Lose]

40 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

No 'P'  on SG stoke'n if it is in the stage write-up, or general club policy-as with Cajon Cowboys.

OLG

May not be at Cajon but it is other places and trying to get stage writers to write it in the stages is nearly impossible. Pala used to allow it on the clock without a P but they aren’t around anymore.

[Warden Callaway]