Target Shape - What is optimal?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

How about we switch the discussion to the pros and cons of vertical target arrays, varying the height of targets used for a sweep vice all targets at the same height, ground vs elevated shotgun knockdowns, and targets that move cause it is pretty obvious that this dead horse has been beaten into dust. 

If it wouldn't take so long to reset between shooters and be an injury factory for resetters, I always wanted to make a T-Star with two (inner and outer) wheels.   Course of fire would alternate 10+ shots between wheels until all plates are down.   

[Black RZR]

What about targets the size of house doors.... then everyone will shoot clean matches and be in the teens for times. That would be fun..... NOT

[Assassin]

6 minutes ago, Black RZR said:

What about targets the size of house doors.... then everyone will shoot clean matches and be in the teens for times. That would be fun..... NOT

The top tier shooters can shoot most scenarios in the teens regardless of target size. Most middle of the pack and lower shooters can't unload their guns (24 rounds) into the dirt in the teens. People still miss huge targets because they attempt to go too fast for their skill level.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Black RZR said:

What about targets the size of house doors.... then everyone will shoot clean matches and be in the teens for times. That would be fun..... NOT

I know; like at Bordertown every year - they actually lose money because of how many clean match pins they have to hand out...  NOT

 

And since it takes forever for Bordertown to sell even a dozen shooters slots; we know that very few people find big and close fun.

 

I often wonder if the knee jerk aversion to big and close is REALLY because it would be too easy or if the real reason is it eliminates all the EASY built in excuses for why a given shooter isn't clean 100% of the time or number 1 on the scoresheet.

 

Folks might actually have to admit there are gaps in their skillsets like transitions, staging, equipment setup/ quality, stage comprehension and the myriad of other faults that shooting fast exposes.

[Yul Lose]

11 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I know; like at Bordertown every year - they actually lose money because of how many clean match pins they have to hand out...  NOT

 

And since it takes forever for Bordertown to sell even a dozen shooters slots; we know that very few people find big and close fun.

 

I often wonder if the knee jerk aversion to big and close is REALLY because it would be too easy or if the real reason is it eliminates all the EASY built in excuses for why a given shooter isn't clean 100% of the time or number 1 on the scoresheet.

 

Folks might actually have to admit there are gaps in their skillsets like transitions, staging, equipment setup/ quality, stage comprehension and the myriad of other faults that shooting fast exposes.

Those big close targets at  BT drive people away......NOT. They sold out in a few days, lots of other matches never sell out.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

28 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Those big close targets at  BT drive people away.

Yeah I know. 

Any shoot that takes three whole days to sell out must really suck.

 

Im sure that a match that tops out at 70 shooters after a year of applications trickling in is a better representation of what shooters are looking for.

 

I forget - which one is the sarcasm font?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

23 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Im sure that a match that tops out at 70 shooters after a year of applications trickling in is a better representation of what shooters are looking for.

I guess it's a question of which shooters we are including in the discussion?   

It's obvious from BT that a lot of folks like to shoot the big close targets, but we also are told by many other shooters that they prefer longer and more varied targets.  I don't think we can totally ignore anybody.   Our overarching  job is to try to give ALL CAS shooters a good time.  

 

Just as BT is known for big and close targets,  other matches are know for their unique and creative target and stage designs.  People can simply go where they can find their shooting preferences.   Every match does not need to be redundant of every other match.  To many of us, that would quickly get pretty B O R I N G.   JMHO. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Keep believing whatever you wish.

Dollars speak for theirself.

 

You can say that you speak to a LOT of folks that prefer other colas to Coke and Pepsi; but until they outsell Coke and Pepsi - it's just talk.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I don't have any statistics to share other than some of my observances during the last few years

in SASS and CAS.

 

I agree with Creeker.   BUT, my opinion is based on other stuff.

There is a lot more than mere numbers that give credit to Creekers info.

And that would be WHERE all these shooters travel from and where they go to shoot.

 

If 200-300 shooters attend the Annual 'Hooverville' showdown, where targets are normally

set at SASS max distances with multiple gimmicks included in the match,

A person could conclude that folks still like that type set up...... until you realize

there are 1000 active SASS/Cowboy shooters living within a couple hours drive time.

Knowing the whole story would not make this match look very attractive, especially

when only 2 in 5 local shooters get involved.

 

BUT, putting together a reputable Big and Close match that fills up with 200-300 shooters

from 17-20 different states where folks travel great distances to attend says a lot 

about what shooters are looking for.

 

Mere numbers look good, but ya gotta look at the story behind those numbers.

And that is where my observances the past few years makes me feel that our

active shooters are having a good time traveling, spending their money and shooting

at what many refer to as 'big & close' targets.  

 

..........Widder

 

[Kirk James]

Not only do they travel from many states, but they also travel from other countries to attend Bordertown.  Not saying every match should be a Bordertown match, but it sells.  A lot of credit should go to TA Chance who has been successful where every he goes.  I have never been to one of his matches that didn't get incredible reviews. Not saying everyone love them, but I have never heard a complaint.   I realize there are many other individuals who contributed  with him and they should be commended also.  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

30 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I don't have any statistics to share other than some of my observances during the last few years

in SASS and CAS.

 

I agree with Creeker.   BUT, my opinion is based on other stuff.

There is a lot more than mere numbers that give credit to Creekers info.

And that would be WHERE all these shooters travel from and where they go to shoot.

 

If 200-300 shooters attend the Annual 'Hooverville' showdown, where targets are normally

set at SASS max distances with multiple gimmicks included in the match,

A person could conclude that folks still like that type set up...... until you realize

there are 1000 active SASS/Cowboy shooters living within a couple hours drive time.

Knowing the whole story would not make this match look very attractive, especially

when only 2 in 5 local shooters get involved.

 

BUT, putting together a reputable Big and Close match that fills up with 200-300 shooters

from 17-20 different states where folks travel great distances to attend says a lot 

about what shooters are looking for.

 

Mere numbers look good, but ya gotta look at the story behind those numbers.

And that is where my observances the past few years makes me feel that our

active shooters are having a good time traveling, spending their money and shooting

at what many refer to as 'big & close' targets.  

 

..........Widder

 

From the above, it sounds like you have witnessed the  basis for taking care of the 3 out of 5, and expecting the other two dues-paying members to adapt (to what is clearly a change from the original CAS targets and shooting styles which originally attracted them.)   Do you see that as a recipe either for loss of a sizeable chunk of membership dues, or alternatively, for splitting of our sport into separate interest groups?  We have seen some of that splitting in the rise of WB shooting, as an aside to main CAS matches.  Folks wanted to broaden the sport to include semi-auto pistols and other kinds of firearms, So WB was born.  So do you see that kind of differentiation as our eventual SASS/CAS endpoint?  Will we have Traditional CAS, Speed Single Action Shooting, and WB as three SASS  pillars?  Will that dilute the character of our historical sport?  Would that  matter? 

 

Do you see any sustaining middle ground (similar to what has been done in many recent matches) to try to provide something for all of our members within the same matches?  If the really good shooters will always end up at the top anyway, will they tolerate some stages set up for the trad shooters who want to keep the original CAS sport alive, with its western style targets and more difficult scrnarios? 

 

I am really asking here, rather than asserting any judgment.  Where do you see us (SASS/CAS) ending up? 

 

[Kirk James]

Forgot to mention the current staff at Bordertown is to be commended for their hard work and success with Bordertown.  We appreciate all you do!!!!!

[Sedalia Dave]

Because big and fast is subjective please list the target distances and size used at BT.

 

I ask because some people define fast as targets less then 6 FEET from the shooter.

[Tyrel Cody]

28 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

targets less then 6 FEET from the shooter.

 

That sounds dangerous to me.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Dusty Devil,

I can't speak for other shooters in answering your questions.    But when some clubs put on

an Annual or State Match,  they like to garner more revenue coming in, than money

being spent.    And therefore, they try to set up matches to draw the crowds.

 

I ain't saying that Big & Close will draw in the paying customers all the time, but it does appear

that those matches that have a high % of Clean shooters do very well in their reputations.

And when the Bunkhouse Boss is traveling back home to Bucksnort,   it is always a 

good thing when she can brag about shooting clean OR having one of her best matches

ever.    And this is usually accomplished with target sizes and setups.

 

I will also add that I've rarely, if ever, witness any amount of shooters who are proponents of

Stand & Deliver type stages or dumps.   But Target sizes and placements is an ongoing

discussion among shooters and its obvious that clubs are trying to cater to keep the

customers and the $$$ coming in.

 

..........Widder

 

 

[Warden Callaway]

I was watching a video where the pistol targets were reasonably close - guessing 10-15 feet.  But were large buffalo maybe 6 square of area.  Looked like 90% of the hits were inside a 1 foot circle in middle.  Probably 100% within 1.5 foot circle. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

35 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

I was watching a video where the pistol targets were reasonably close - guessing 10-15 feet.  But were large buffalo maybe 6 square of area.  Looked like 90% of the hits were inside a 1 foot circle in middle.  Probably 100% within 1.5 foot circle. 

 

They saved the outer, clean edges for ME..... 

 

..........Widder

 

[Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life]

Big and close doesn't guarantee all hits on a target.  I've seen a target the size of a buffalo (BIG) at pistol distance and watched shooters "walk up and off" that huge target.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Dusty Devil,

I can't speak for other shooters in answering your questions.    But when some clubs put on

an Annual or State Match,  they like to garner more revenue coming in, than money

being spent.    And therefore, they try to set up matches to draw the crowds.

 

I ain't saying that Big & Close will draw in the paying customers all the time, but it does appear

that those matches that have a high % of Clean shooters do very well in their reputations.

And when the Bunkhouse Boss is traveling back home to Bucksnort,   it is always a 

good thing when she can brag about shooting clean OR having one of her best matches

ever.    And this is usually accomplished with target sizes and setups.

 

I will also add that I've rarely, if ever, witness any amount of shooters who are proponents of

Stand & Deliver type stages or dumps.   But Target sizes and placements is an ongoing

discussion among shooters and its obvious that clubs are trying to cater to keep the

customers and the $$$ coming in.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Fair enough. 

I'm just struggling between different folks' interests in trying to set up targets to satisfy our shooters.   On one hand, if nobody shoots clean, your match was a great test of skill, but maybe not very fun,  particularly if everyone is mentally exhausted at the end. 

On the other hand, if nearly everyone can shoot clean, you probably had a pretty boring match.   

Personally I like choices where shooters can risk utilizing harder targets with associated gain, like shooting the rifle targets again from the same location with pistols to save the time to change positions, v. moving location to shoot closer pistol targets.  To me that is a helpful compromise.   

But like you, I like seeing that "I shot clean" look on shooters' faces.   I think satisfying everybody's taste  will always be a challenge.   Personally, I just shoot whatever is out in front of me.  Sometimes I shoot well, other times, not so well.   That makes it fun.  

[Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life]

I enjoy the various shapes. Round targets are great for NRA bullseye competition and a potpourri of shapes are part of the FUN of cowboy action shooting matches. I wouldn't shoot warthog loads of Holy Black in my ten gauge double and .45 Colt revolvers and rifle if I believed that high speed competitive shooting was at all important in cowboy action matches.