Buckling shotgun hulls??

[Croc Holiday]

I’ll start with I’m a noob reloader.  I’m loading my first batch of shells and I keep getting a slight buckle on maybe 20% of the hulls.  Hoping someone can help me identify where I’m going wrong.  I’m using once fired Winchester AA hulls, 4.0cc of black powder, clay buster 1138 wads and 1 1/8 oz of shot.  Is the hull not full enough when I crimp?  Am I too enthusiastic with my crimp?  Are Winchester hulls junk?  Let me know what ya think.  Photo below.

 

Thanks!!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I'd guess you have the main crimp die set a little low.   Back it off (upwards) a turn and try again.   If you cannot get a good closed crimp AND a hull that does not crumple, then reducing the powder slightly in a BP shell would be the next step - this shortens the "internal stack" of powder, wad, shot and means the crimp will be easier to create without buckling.  Any general shotshell loading manual, and your loading press manual, should give you guidance in how to get a perfect crimp, too.

 

When loading true BP, you can easily adjust the amount of powder up or down in order to make the stack height come out right so you get a perfect crimp!   BP runs so low a chamber pressure that you really have to work hard to get into danger.

 

Win AA hulls are usually very nice to make BP loads with.   They are slightly difficult if making a very low -power smokeless load due to the shape of the base wad (separate plastic base wad) in the hull.   LOTS of pards loading BP in Win AA hulls like you are holding.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

Shot column is too tall, and/or the wad/shot cup is too long, and/or the crimp is too heavy. After you shoot it, chuck it in the trash cuz it will buckle far easier the next time.
I use 3.7 cc with the same 1138 Claybuster red wad, and only 1 oz of shot.

[Lead Monger]

I use that powder charge (4cc), wad and Hull with one oz of #8. 

[Croc Holiday]

Thanks for the input!

 

I forgot to note that I’m using a Lee Load-All.  I don’t see anything in the manual about adjusting the crimp.  I can look online tomorrow and double check.

 

39 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

After you shoot it, chuck it in the trash cuz it will buckle far easier the next time.
I use 3.7 cc with the same 1138 Claybuster red wad, and only 1 oz of shot.

 

Definitely going to chuck them.

 

40 minutes ago, Lead Monger said:

I use that powder charge (4cc), wad and Hull with one oz of #8. 

 

Maybe I’ll start with less shot since others are getting down to 1 oz and see if that helps.  If not I’ll move on to reducing powder if it’s still crushing them.  I was also reading that I may have been too beastly when setting the wad.  It sounds like I should be just seating it.  

[Croc Holiday]

On another note...  am I going to have a hard time pitching those out of my S x S?

[Three Foot Johnson]

Probably... maybe not.

With my only shotgun shooting being CAS and Wild Bunch, all I've ever used is a Lee Load-All. You are correct, there is no crimp adjustment - it's just a matter of feel. One big thing about the Load-All is the crimp starter isn't self-indexing, so you have to look up into the barrel, see how it's oriented, and index the hulls properly. For some reason, Lee didn't make them all the same either - some have the fold to the front, some have the point to the front. I have all my Load-Alls marked with a Sharpie as to how to orient the hull.

[Snakebite]

Don't change a thing, leave everything set as it is and load any Remington hull and it will be just right!  If you want to load the AA, first I would try backing off the crimp die just a tad.. if you are not happy with the resulting crimp, then you need to do something to lower the column inside the shell... either less shot, less powder, or shorter wad. THAT is why a lot of folks use adjustable shot/powder bars, and everybody lived happy ever after..... the end.

 

Snakebite

[Lunger Dan]

I use the load all also- at first I had problems until I learned the "feel" for amounts of pressure to use with each station....unlike a mec , etc...your force is the adjustment setting. 
I found it helpful to use some "clearer" hulls than the AAs to start/practice with, where I could see what was going on inside with the wad, column, etc. I had some of those clearish green remington hulls.
personally, I use 2.8cc BP sub and 7/8 ounce of # 7 1/2 shot...never had that not knock em down.

[Old Ranger]

Had the same problem when I started with my Lee Load All 11, found I was being too aggressive starting my crimp, go a little more lightly on this first stage of your crimp, then you can use  more pressure on second stage of crimp, good luck

[Sedalia Dave]

5 hours ago, Croc Holiday said:

 I was also reading that I may have been too beastly when setting the wad.  It sounds like I should be just seating it

 

When loading BP seating the wad firmly is a good thing. When loading Smokeless all that needs to be done is seating the wad on the powder.

[Rye Miles #13621]

5 hours ago, Croc Holiday said:

I forgot to note that I’m using a Lee Load-All.  I don’t see anything in the manual about adjusting the crimp.  I can look online tomorrow and double check.

I'm using a Lee Load also and I've buckled a few. I found that when you do the first crimp after the shot is poured in you have to be very gentle. Works for me, I haven't buckled a shell since I started being careful. Also make sure you're using the right wad.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

When Win changed to the two piece hull there is always a chance to get the ring. With the Load All you cannot adjust wad pressure, but you can adjust wad, powder and shot, change over to the Rem STS hulls for best results. Those should shoot and chuck just fine, I've used a gazillion like that. Good Luck

[Choctaw Jack]

I used A Lee Load-All II and red AA for years with great results.IMO reducing your powder charge is the easiest way to help solve your problem.Although I dont shoot BP, the cure should work the same.

Choctaw Jack 

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Stop wasting your time on Win-AA hulls.

Ones I come across, go into the trash.........

OLG

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Nice to have the budget to do that.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Nice to have the budget to do that.

 

I shoot trap/skeet and 5 stand.

SG hulls are plentiful......

OLG

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

My point is, maybe they're not so plentiful for others and AA are what we can get cheaply.

I'd love to shoot and reload nothing but Rem STS Premiers, but they are in high demand as once fired and too expensive to buy new in any quantity.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

My point is, maybe they're not so plentiful for others and AA are what we can get cheaply.

I'd love to shoot and reload nothing but Rem STS Premiers, but they are in high demand as once fired and too expensive to buy new in any quantity.

 

AA's have gone down the crap tube in quality. They're junk, today. Not worth the effort to reload.

The Walmart 100 pks of 12ga, reload better than AA's will. BTDT

YMMV,

OLG

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP-Try this---

When you seat the wad, hold it in place for a 5 count-See what that does.

OLG

[John Boy]

Rammer Tube for powder shot station is set for 30 to 120 lbs of pressure.  You have too much pressure seating the wad / shot - decrease the rammer tube pressure

Overall, read the instruction manual for your press to determine that ALL stations are adjusted per the manual

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

On 8/22/2019 at 10:10 AM, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

My point is, maybe they're not so plentiful for others and AA are what we can get cheaply.

I'd love to shoot and reload nothing but Rem STS Premiers, but they are in high demand as once fired and too expensive to buy new in any quantity.

I shoot Remington Gun Clubs with black powder at local matches.  They don't buckle during reloading.  I get enough once-fired Gun Club hulls at clays ranges for free.  I use STS hulls for major matches when I really want to ensure my shells shuck perfectly.  I no longer reload AAs for CAS.  I give my once-fired AAs to a family who likes them.

[Croc Holiday]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Stop wasting your time on Win-AA hulls.

Ones I come across, go into the trash.........

OLG

 

Bummer.  There was someone at the range talking about all the nice AA's they were taking out of the bin.  Maybe they were remembering the AA's of old?

 

I'll have to see about trying to pickup some new hulls.  My range also has trap & skeet ranges.  Maybe I'll raid their bin while I'm there Sat.  Are there other hulls I should pass on?  I don't know my brands yet.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Each press is a bit different on what it likes.

IMHO-If you stay away from AA's. That will solve about 90% of your reloading issues.

If you have other hulls to try-try'em.

Might try dropping the shot load some-Maybe use 1oz....

OLG

 

[Grizzly Dave]

I use a lee load all also, and had the same problems you are.  I've since gone to using only Remington STS green hulls and find that they don't have that issue for the most part and load more consistently, and even more times before they start cracking or having the crimp start to unfold before shooting.

[Tucker McNeely]

I use AAs once-fired for my BP loads.  1.9cc 777 and 1 oz. wad and 7 1/2 shot.  Don't care if I see a small buckle.  I do a size check on all match shells with the double barrel that I plan to use.  I rarely have shuck issues.  I chalk that up to operator error if I do.  ymmv.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Remington STS or Nitro hulls are the premium US made hulls for reloading.   STS are dark green, Nitros are gold and both have a real brass base.

Remington Gun Club (a lighter green, a steel base and ribbed hull walls) are second best.   

 

A Lee LoadAll is, in my opinion, more trouble than it's worth.  But I load 200-300 rounds a week....     A Mec Grabber is just about right for serious cowboy shooting.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Croc Holiday]

What about Fiocchi hulls?  Anyone like those at all? I’m attracted to shiny objects and I see these come in some cool colors.

[Three Foot Johnson]

I cut down the opaque white Fiocchi shooting dynamics hulls for 2 1/2" chambers because they take and hold the new crimp so much better than anything else - I modified a Load-All to star crimp them rather than use a roll crimp. These, and the dark red Federal hulls (Top Gun and others), also work very well for roll-crimped 1 3/4" mini-shells.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

56 minutes ago, Croc Holiday said:

What about Fiocchi hulls?  Anyone like those at all? I’m attracted to shiny objects and I see these come in some cool colors.

I loaded'em with no issues. 

Get a handful, and give'em a try.

OLG

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I load Win AA on a Mec 650 without issues. Lots of once fired hulls available after every match. They work fine in all my shotguns. 

 

Not that this helps the OP.  

[Yusta B.]

Check Fleabay & gunbreaker for a Mec 600 jr in descent shape. You'll thank yourself.

[Dutch Wheeler]

I know that I will be criticized for this, but I have been loading the Federal red hulls on a Lee Load-All II for years with no issues.  They are abundantly available, and shuck out of my double just fine.

[Sedalia Dave]

When I shoot smokeless I shoot Federal Top Gun shells. They make excellent BP loads. I also collect any that other shooters leave behind. They are every bit as good at Remington Gun Clubs.

 

I reload Remington STS huls for my wife.  Claybuster makes a 3/4 wad that allows me to have a reliable load that has less felt recoil than Win AAs.

 

I have had no issues reloading Win AAs with BP. I just choose not to because it requires an ever so slight change in the crimp die setup on my MEC reloaders. 

Remington STS, Gun Club or Federal hulls all use the same crimp die setup while the AAs need a different setting. I prefer not to change back and forth.  

[Croc Holiday]

Tried again tonight with 1 oz shot, the same 4.0 cc of BP and a little less enthusiasm when crimping.  It helped some but some still wanted to buckle but not nearly like the pic above.  I’ll see if I can get my hands on some Remington hulls this weekend and try those instead.  Thanks for all the input!!  I really appreciate the advice!