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Rance - SASS # 54090

'73 Rifle timing

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I've watched Pioneer Gunworks and many others on the timing of a '73 rifle..:)

In setting up my rifle the carrier when rising just "barely" clears the firing pin assembly :mellow:

It doesn't touch it and seems to eject my dummy rounds fine but..

Just wondering if it should be a little more or leave it..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin it's close enough that it bothers me :huh:

but.. I also don't want to go too far..:wacko:

Advise welcome :D:wub:

 

 

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You said the carrier rising just misses it.   Do you have a dummy shell in there?      GW

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I don't want anything hitting the tab on the face of the bolt that holds the cartridge along with the extractor because they can break off. Put a cartridge (dummy round) and see if it hits the tab.

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It will change a bit after you get it set the first time.  After you shoot it a match or two, look at it again.  Things stretch and move.  I've found that it will need a bit more work on the timing, and then it will be good.

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I've ran (cycled) about 5 dummy rounds through it twice..

They cycled and ejected just fine.. Misses the lower tab..

but just barely..

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Too short it hits the carrier and or the bolt tab hits the next round coming up and neither is good. Too long = longer action and that's about it until you get to the point where the bolt is so far back in the frame it binds the brass on ejection as the carrier pushes it up. 

 

 

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Ok.. 

I shot it in a match and it got sticky levering..

Chamber area clean..

I have filed the carrier timing ledge down a little further for greater separation from the carrier rising to miss the bolt upon levering..

The cartridge tab has been replaced but it seems to have been

bent down ever so slightly and hangs up the levering.. Sticky..

I was able to straighten the tab.. That got rid of the sticky..

it cycles 10 dummy rounds through it beautifully..

Haven't shot a match with it since this tweeking..

Question:

Is it the carrier raising too quickly that bends the tab?

Thanks for any help..

 

 

Edited by Rance - SASS # 54090

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Mine started sticking & the tab was bent down, not up, causing the tab to rub in the bolt channel.. The carrier rising too soon will bend the tab up. Don't know what caused it to bend down.

Edited by Yusta B.
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Timing when you cycle it slowly (like most first time short stroke installers do out of caution) - varies from what happens during fast cycling in a match. 

 

So, I leave a little room with missing the tab when setting timing.   Better slightly-slower-safe than broken-tab-sorry.

 

Good luck, GJ

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6 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Timing when you cycle it slowly (like most first time short stroke installers do out of caution) - varies from what happens during fast cycling in a match. 

 

So, I leave a little room with missing the tab when setting timing.   Better slightly-slower-safe than broken-tab-sorry.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Do this!  Good info.  GJ always has good info.

 

Pay special attention to the cycle slowly part.  Cartridge cases have rims of varying shapes and diameters.  Some have beveled edges on the rim and some don’t.  When setting up the timing, you want to find an example of the largest diameter rim and having the least bevel.  Check out a couple of dozen cases of various manufacture should give a good approximation.

 

For the “Slow Cycle” part, hold the gun up at about a 45 degree angle and watch the case rim as you slowly bring the lifter up.  The edge of the case rim must completely miss the tab on the bottom of the bolt every time, all the time.  (If it doesn’t, the tab will break off sooner or later.)

 

As Null ‘N Void said, be sure to check it again after it wears in a while.

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2 hours ago, Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 said:

 

Do this!  Good info.  GJ always has good info.

 

Pay special attention to the cycle slowly part.  Cartridge cases have rims of varying shapes and diameters.  Some have beveled edges on the rim and some don’t.  When setting up the timing, you want to find an example of the largest diameter rim and having the least bevel.  Check out a couple of dozen cases of various manufacture should give a good approximation.

 

For the “Slow Cycle” part, hold the gun up at about a 45 degree angle and watch the case rim as you slowly bring the lifter up.  The edge of the case rim must completely miss the tab on the bottom of the bolt every time, all the time.  (If it doesn’t, the tab will break off sooner or later.)

 

As Null ‘N Void said, be sure to check it again after it wears in a while.

Ok So you want it to be able to cycle slow and fast. 
My rifle only cycles fast and hangs up just a touch when cycled slow. I did the timing work and it appears now it needs some more. (learning here)
Pioneer gun works full supper short stroke kit and all the reduced springs etc. 

Edited by Son of the Midnight Star

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28 minutes ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

My rifle only cycles fast and hangs up just a touch when cycled slow. I did the timing work and it appears now it needs some more.

 

The 73 is about the most open lever rifle action ever made.  I even take off one side plate and cycle the gun when I find a hangup point that is hard to see.  You will notice any drag in the "carrier returns second round into the magazine" part of the closing lever stroke more when cycling the gun slowly.   You may also notice a hangup when the bolt face just starts to enter the rear of the lifter (carrier block) if the timing is just slightly off or the upward stop position of the lifter is slightly too high.

 

Since the moving parts are so easy to see in toggle guns, the usual way I spot problem areas is to look even harder at the "usual suspect" points in the action where binding, interference, snagging and other rubbing can take place, and watch and feel for jerky or harder motion as you slow cycle past those suspects.  Of course, running the gun for a hundred (or two) rounds and looking for rub marks in the bluing is another way, but that requires a tear down and inspection of all the action parts....   Use all your tricks and senses when timing a toggle action!

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

The 73 is about the most open lever rifle action ever made.  I even take off one side plate and cycle the gun when I find a hangup point that is hard to see.  You will notice any drag in the "carrier returns second round into the magazine" part of the closing lever stroke more when cycling the gun slowly.   You may also notice a hangup when the bolt face just starts to enter the rear of the lifter (carrier block) if the timing is just slightly off or the upward stop position of the lifter is slightly too high.

 

Since the moving parts are so easy to see in toggle guns, the usual way I spot problem areas is to look even harder at the "usual suspect" points in the action where binding, interference, snagging and other rubbing can take place, and watch and feel for jerky or harder motion as you slow cycle past those suspects.  Of course, running the gun for a hundred (or two) rounds and looking for rub marks in the bluing is another way, but that requires a tear down and inspection of all the action parts....   Use all your tricks and senses when timing a toggle action!

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Mine just hangs up right as the bolt is near full retract and the carrier is trying to clear the bolt, the case just catches the bottom of the bolt.  If i cycle the bolt with a little more authority it works fine but slow it down and it catches. Rifle might have 200 round through it. Time to break it out and play with it some more and maybe file on it to get the timing better. 
Thanks for the tips. 

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If the tab on the bolt is getting bent down the extractor may be too stiff.

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3 hours ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

Mine just hangs up right as the bolt is near full retract and the carrier is trying to clear the bolt, the case just catches the bottom of the bolt.  If i cycle the bolt with a little more authority it works fine but slow it down and it catches

 

This description does not make much sense to me, especially the part I bolded.  In the last part of bolt retract motion, the case should be kicked clear of the bolt face and forced up out of action as the carrier rises to it's high position.   A previous thread on here showed that some lifter blocks need a little relief ground in the block for the case to pivot as the lifter pushes the case upwards from the front end, and the extractor is forced to release the rim.   I'll try to find it and add a link to it.

 

..... till later....

 

GJ

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

This description does not make much sense to me, especially the part I bolded.  In the last part of bolt retract motion, the case should be kicked clear of the bolt face and forced up out of action as the carrier rises to it's high position.   A previous thread on here showed that some lifter blocks need a little relief ground in the block for the case to pivot as the lifter pushes the case upwards from the front end, and the extractor is forced to release the rim.   I'll try to find it and add a link to it.

 

..... till later....

 

GJ

 

 

I think he is talking about loading, not ejecting.

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Quote

I think he is talking about loading

 

Well, that would make a little more sense.

 

If, MS, you are hitting the bolt tab with the  case rim as a new round is lifted up, you have a bad interference!   That will end up bending the cartridge tab upwards, making ejection difficult or breaking the tab off!    This timing problem would need to be fixed.  Going faster will just add more energy to any impact between case rim and bolt tab, making it more likely to snap off the tab.   Lifter is coming up too fast.  Usually fixed by filing some more off of the contact pad that drives the lifter arm upward.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Well, that would make a little more sense.

 

If, MS, you are hitting the bolt tab with the  case rim as a new round is lifted up, you have a bad interference!   That will end up bending the cartridge tab upwards, making ejection difficult or breaking the tab off!    This timing problem would need to be fixed.  Going faster will just add more energy to any impact between case rim and bolt tab, making it more likely to snap off the tab.   Lifter is coming up too fast.  Usually fixed by filing smore more off of the contact pad that drives the lifter arm upward.

 

Good luck, GJ

Yeah I was referring to loading. 

Well I tinker with it this weekend and see what I can do. 

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3 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Well, that would make a little more sense.

 

If, MS, you are hitting the bolt tab with the  case rim as a new round is lifted up, you have a bad interference!   That will end up bending the cartridge tab upwards, making ejection difficult or breaking the tab off!    This timing problem would need to be fixed.  Going faster will just add more energy to any impact between case rim and bolt tab, making it more likely to snap off the tab.   Lifter is coming up too fast.  Usually fixed by filing smore more off of the contact pad that drives the lifter arm upward.

 

Good luck, GJ

Yeah I was referring to loading. 

 

In tinkering with it tonight, it only took two more try’s to get it perfect. Now the bolt slides back, the carrier rises and hits nothing on the way and the rounds nearly fall into the chamber by themselves and this is in a muzzle level to up condition. 

All it needed was just a little more massaging. 

 

Thanks pards for the help. 

Edited by Son of the Midnight Star

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