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Kirk James

Split pistol clarification; half cock hammers

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If split pistols are the last firearm to be fired:  Shooter A holsters his first pistol on half cock  after shooting 5 rounds, moves and shoots his 2nd pistol.  He realizes his first pistol is on half cock, draws it and dry fires it to remove the error before going to the unloading table.  Shooter B sets his 1st pistol on the table on half cock, draws his 2nd pistol, shoots and holsters it and comes back to his 1st pistol, picks it up and dry  fires it to remove the error.   Shooter C holsters his first pistol after shooting it, does not take his hand off it, pulls it back out and dry fires it before going to the second pistol.   Shooter D sets his pistol down on half cock, takes his hand off the pistol, sees it is on half cock, picks it up and dry fires it before going to the 2nd pistol.  Which shooters receive a stage dq or other penalties? 

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A, B, & D.

The penalty applies as soon as the shooter lets go of the revolver.

Quote

- A cocked revolver leaving the shooters hand. 

SHB p.23 - STAGE DQ Penalties

 

Quote

Cocked – hammer not fully down (full, half-cock or safety notch). 

SHB p.43

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I have a follow up question related to this PaleWolf.

 

SHB Page 15

When drawing a Revolver from its holster, the revolver may not be cocked until it is pointed safely downrange (at a 45° angle downrange).

 

I realize shooter C is holstering, not drawing, but does this mean the 45 degree rule isn’t applicable when reholstering? If a shooter had fired less than 5 rounds wouldn’t the same safety concern apply on the reholster? 

 

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The 45 degree rule always applies.

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12 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

The 45 degree rule always applies.

Then - SDQ

 

SHB Page 23

Returning a revolver to leather with the hammer not fully down on a spent round
or empty chamber

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20 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

The 45 degree rule always applies.

I did not know this. Is it in a clarification?

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Unless something has changed that I am unaware of, the statement about 45 degees is correct. As far as I know, the reholster penalty would not apply until the shooter removed his hand from the half cocked gun, Shooter C. When he pulled the gun back out to correct the problem, he would have to get it 45 degrees downrange then bring it to full cock and pull the trigger. 

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1 minute ago, Snakebite said:

Unless something has changed that I am unaware of, the statement about 45 degees is correct. As far as I know, the reholster penalty would not apply until the shooter removed his hand from the half cocked gun. When he pulled the gun back out to correct the problem, he would have to get it 45 degrees downrange then bring it to full cock and pull the trigger. 

So the 45 degree rule only applies to fully cocked guns?  Just to be clear, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to fully understand the rule for this situation.

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The 45 degree rule is applied to the act of cocking the pistol. I don't think that Shooter C holstered the pistol and then pulled it to half cock. It sounds like it was already on half cock. Half cock and full cock are treated the same.

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OK, so the logic is the act of cocking the pistol prior to being 45 degrees downrange is a safety concern, but once it is on half cock it's no longer a safety concern and may come within the 45 degree angle?  (hoping this thread doesn't go the way of the squib in a double thread!)

 

I can see why the penalty wouldn't kick in until you take your hand off it on say a table, but isn't having a cocked pistol in your holster worthy of a penalty, regardless of whether you've taken your hand off it or not?  The way I'm hearing this, I can holster a loaded, cocked pistol (potentially pointed at my leg or foot) and it's a no call as long as I don't take my hand off the gun.  Furthermore I can then draw that cocked pistol, point it downrange and make it safe without violating the rule against cocking a pistol before it's 45 degrees downrange.

 

I think the 45 degree rule and the ability to avoid a penalty as long as your hand is still on the gun are in conflict here.

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My understanding is the 45 degree rule only applies to the draw. The reason is to keep people from cocking in the holster and blowing their toes off. The reason it couldn't apply everywhere is because some of the stages we shoot. Ever shoot at guns of August? Shooting the targets would break the 45. Also, all the times people have reholstered with the revolver cocked and had to pull it out and dry fire to lower the hammer would not have happened. It would have to only apply to the original draw to fire IMO.

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RE-drawing a cocked revolver before releasing control in order to "un-cock" it to avoid the SDQ does not fall within the 45 degree rule, except (as Snakebite mentioned) if it is brought from half-cock to full cock before it reaches 45 degrees downrange.

The penalty for "- Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45° down range." is a MSV (SHB p.23).

 

HOWEVER!
Regarding the OP, if a shooter "de-cocked" (dry-fired) an empty revolver before it is pointed safely downrange, it could be a
SDQ for "Unsafe firearm handling". (SHB p.23)

 

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42 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

My understanding is the 45 degree rule only applies to the draw. The reason is to keep people from cocking in the holster and blowing their toes off. The reason it couldn't apply everywhere is because some of the stages we shoot. Ever shoot at guns of August? Shooting the targets would break the 45. Also, all the times people have reholstered with the revolver cocked and had to pull it out and dry fire to lower the hammer would not have happened. It would have to only apply to the original draw to fire IMO.

I understand what the rule is.  I'm questioning whether the rules as currently written and understood have a safety hole in them.  If the reason for the 45 degree rule is to prevent people shooting their toes off, or worse, (and I agree with you that is the intent of the rule) how does allowing someone to holster a cocked and potentially loaded revolver make sense?  Doesn't pulling an already cocked revolver from leather pose as much danger, if not more, than pulling one out hammer down and then cocking it before it's 45 degrees downrange?  Half cock or not shouldn't matter.  I know if I pull hard on the trigger of either of my revolvers the hammer will fall off the half cock.  Whether there's enough energy to pop a primer I don't know.  Never tried.

 

Admittedly, on the first draw we know the gun is loaded and on the second it may not be, but as written do the rules distinguish between loaded and unloaded in this situation?

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How late at night does one have to stay up to dream up these weird scenarios   :rolleyes:

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3 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

How late at night does one have to stay up to dream up these weird scenarios   :rolleyes:

That one is not a dream.  I've seen bad results from reholstering a cocked pistol and whether the shooter's hand came off or not didn't affect the end result. :(

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If I remember correctly this was discussed earlier here and I think the determination was that holstering a cocked pistol would get the penalty as soon as the muzzle entered the holster.

kR

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Capt.BB  :)

 

Unrelated to this discussion .... however .... from the perspective of a retired Gunplumber .... If you can pull your triggers and have your guns come off "half cock" you have a problem.  You SHOULD NOT be able to do that.  UNSAFE at any speed (Stolen famous line).

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1 minute ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Capt.BB  :)

 

Unrelated to this discussion .... however .... from the perspective of a retired Gunplumber .... If you can pull your triggers and have your guns come off "half cock" you have a problem.  You SHOULD NOT be able to do that.  UNSAFE at any speed (Stolen famous line).

Manatee said something like that to me years ago.  Without naming names let's just say that my pistols were worked on by a very well known Gunplumber and that's the way he does his half cock conversions.  At the time I bought them I was pretty new to the game and didn't really understand the mechanics of how these pistols work.  Now that I do I would prefer a shelf/notch on the sear rather than the hump it has, BUT they're sweet shooting guns, I know the weakness, and in the unlikely event I ever part with them I'll be sure to inform the buyer of their status.

 

In the meantime I keep my finger off the trigger while loading and try not to drop them when they're at half cock.  From my perspective those are things we should be doing anyway.  

 

With any of my guns, cowboy or otherwise, I assume the safeties will not work properly when I most need them to and act accordingly.

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Howdy JEDI Coffinmaker,

 

I know you do a lot (if not ALL) of your own gun plumbing and probably have little need to ever see

other work from other plumbers.  I can't say that for fact, but its a good guess  cause your work

is very good.

 

Anyhow, I have heard off, seen and felt (operated) short stroke pistols that a pressing of the trigger

would allow the hammers to release from their half cock shelf (or hump).

An actual 'notch' was not placed in the pistols but rather just a sear 'resting place' while

on half cock.

 

And like Capt BB, I won't mention any plumbers names but I presently own 2 sets of Rugers, 

plumbed up by 2 separate well known pistol plumbers that will allow the hammers to fall

from half cock IF the trigger is firmly pressed.

On the POSITIVE side, the chambers are offset from the firing pin and if the hammer should fall

from half-cock, there isn't a round directly in front of the firing pin.

 

I ain't saying this is safe or such, but just to acknowledge there are such pistols that have been

plumbed accordingly.   Its possible that A LOT of our pistols are like that but the owners have never

tested them to see if theirs is capable or not.

 

..........Widder 

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   I disagree with everybody on general principle.:lol:

  -Kidding

Just so we are all on the same page:

    1)Shooter finishes pistol rounds and somehow ends up on half cock, he can unholster the revolver and point downrange to dry fire and reholster.

    2)Shooter finishes pistol rounds and somehow ends up on full cock, he CAN or CANNOT unholster the revolver and point down range and dry fire and reholster?

    3)Shooter orders steak and chicken but wanted steak and shrimp. Can he keep the chicken and still order a side of shrimp and still have room for a nanner split on the way home?

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

   I disagree with everybody on general principle.:lol:

  -Kidding

Just so we are all on the same page:

    1)Shooter finishes pistol rounds and somehow ends up on half cock, he can unholster the revolver and point downrange to dry fire and reholster.
YES, As long as the shooter has not let go of the revolver.

    2)Shooter finishes pistol rounds and somehow ends up on full cock, he CAN or CANNOT unholster the revolver and point down range and dry fire and reholster?
YES, as long as the shooter has not let go of the revolver.

    3)Shooter orders steak and chicken but wanted steak and shrimp. Can he keep the chicken and still order a side of shrimp and still have room for a nanner split on the way home?
YES, there is always room for dessert (of any kind)!

 

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5 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

If I remember correctly this was discussed earlier here and I think the determination was that holstering a cocked pistol would get the penalty as soon as the muzzle entered the holster.

kR

 

Quote

11) Question from the floor:  When is the penalty earned in the situation where a cocked revolver is holstered?    ROC Reply: When hand is off the gun. (Answer was researched in current ROC clarifications and discussions). When a cocked revolver is holstered, and the shooter removes their hand from the grip, the appropriate penalty will apply (can’t be rectified). Whether there is a live round, empty casing or empty chamber below the cocked hammer is irrelevant – it is the cocked revolver which earns the penalty – SDQ.   

TG Meeting Notes WR 2017

 

 

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