JohnWesleyHardin Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 We had two bird malfunctions today. One the bird simply didn't fly. The second, the bird took off early due to the other targets going down. What's the right call. We award 5 second bonuses for each hit bird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlow4697 Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Give the Bonus then fix the problems sounds like prop failure to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Quote - Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, failure of the timer, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted. SHB p.21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 The right call...hmmmm...Oh I know!!!! Get rid of bonus targets. And then there's PWB's post... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnWesleyHardin Posted August 11, 2019 Author Share Posted August 11, 2019 I agree with PWB but there was a discussion about just awarding the bonus. I didn't think that was an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Quote TARGET FAILURE In the event a target fails or falls to the ground, the Chief Range Officer should instruct the shooter to "shoot where it was." This call will never result in a penalty of any kind to the shooter. RO2 p.8 ...as long as the shot for the "bonus" bird is actually fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnWesleyHardin Posted August 11, 2019 Author Share Posted August 11, 2019 The shooter would not be "penalized" because it is a bonus if hit not a miss. Is the correct answer to give him the bonus or do not award the bonus and offer him a reshoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 1 minute ago, JohnWesleyHardin said: The shooter would not be "penalized" because it is a bonus if hit not a miss. Is the correct answer to give him the bonus or do not award the bonus and offer him a reshoot? Missing a time-related "bonus" IS a penalty as it relates to everyone who hits it. "Shoot where it was" means "give the shooter the hit" as long as the shot is fired. The correct answer is either of the two options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 2 hours ago, JohnWesleyHardin said: The shooter would not be "penalized" because it is a bonus if hit not a miss. Is the correct answer to give him the bonus or do not award the bonus and offer him a reshoot? There is a time differential between those that hit vs those that don't... Just like any other target. Bonuses are not bonuses once one person has hit that bonus. Then it's just like any other target. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: There is a time differential between those that hit vs those that don't... Just like any other target. Bonuses are not bonuses once one person has hit that bonus. Then it's just like any other target. Phantom Exactly. And why I don't like the entire concept of the "bonus". It's still just another target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 21 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said: Exactly. And why I don't like the entire concept of the "bonus". It's still just another target. I love flyers and other 'bonus' targets, but the name is misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 25 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: There is a time differential between those that hit vs those that don't... Just like any other target. Bonuses are not bonuses once one person has hit that bonus. Then it's just like any other target. Phantom +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe LaFives #5481 Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Yep - Bonuses are bogus. Just call it what it is a target that must be hit if you want to score well. Pain for scoring as well since folks forget to mark it on sheets and harder to proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I love flyers and other 'bonus' targets, but the name is misleading. Flyers and other unusual targets add a wonderful amount of variety and entertainment. But they really are just another target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 16 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: RO2 p.8 ...as long as the shot for the "bonus" bird is actually fired. My experience is that most clubs do it that way. A clay bird broken by the apparatus or a failed launch is simply a feebie to the shooter. Same as a shotgun KD that doesn't get reset between shooters. Just shoot where it would have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Equanimous Phil Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 11 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Bonuses are not bonuses once one person has hit that bonus. Then it's just like any other target. 11 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said: It's still just another target. 10 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said: Yep - Bonuses are bogus. Just call it what it is a target that must be hit if you want to score well. I fully agree that the designation doesn't matter for the scoring and ranking, but doesn't it make a difference for the guys whose main (or even single) goal is a clean match? My understanding is that a missed bonus isn't counted as miss (but I haven't encountered many stages with bonus targets yet). So, bonus targets are a possibility to intersperse a couple of more challenging targets without having people lamenting their clean match denied? Equanimous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 17 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: There is a time differential between those that hit vs those that don't... Just like any other target. Bonuses are not bonuses once one person has hit that bonus. Then it's just like any other target. Phantom That's why I like them though. IMO a "good" shooter trying to win should be able to address a bonus target with no issues. If not they found a weak point and probably should address that if they want to be a champion rather than a weekend warrior or causal competitor. But at the same time it gives people a chance to do something more difficult with a lower risk factor if there goal is to shoot clean. The key is to balance out the time so you don't have big time advantages that change the match drastically. You don't want a 10 sec bonus for a static clay shot with a pistol at 5 yards...…..that's too much weight for one shot in a match.....but say 3 for that target is better. If you miss it you lose really less than 3 because the time it takes to aim is longer than the .25 to engage a steel target. Could that 2.72 sec change the match for the overall? Yes but I would think the match winner should be able to do that over and over again. I think a lot of folks really like them if they are done right. The wrong way is a 5 sec bonus if you hit it and a miss if you don't. That gets done sometimes but it's really a 10 second swing...….for one target which causes a lot of place changes in the match due to one difficult shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said: I fully agree that the designation doesn't matter for the scoring and ranking, but doesn't it make a difference for the guys whose main (or even single) goal is a clean match? My understanding is that a missed bonus isn't counted as miss (but I haven't encountered many stages with bonus targets yet). So, bonus targets are a possibility to intersperse a couple of more challenging targets without having people lamenting their clean match denied? Equanimous I'd say that's a red herring. A clean match ought to be just that. Every target struck with no penalties. For a MD, just put out that bird, or that long shot on a smaller target. I bet you'll see no less smiles if you call it a bonus or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 Hi Folks, It is a common occurrence and I've always seen it given as a hit not a reshoot as long as the shot for the "bonus" bird is actually fired. In other words, it is treated like a target failure or downed target. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 I once saw a shooter have a “malfunction “ with his 97 on a bonus shot. It was the last shot of the stage. Shot stage from inside saloon, then go outside carrying shotgun. Get to position, call “pull” for single flyer. Took several seconds to get out of building and I to position. Certainly longer than 5 seconds. He fumbled shells. Had his gun hang up, all sorts of problems. He finally declared “broke gun”. No way to prove it, but I think he intentionally did not shoot the bonus. Lesson learned. Poor stage design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 PLUS ONE or TWO too Phantom and Doc Shapiro. I like shooting target launched flyers. It's a gob of fun. I don't like making them a "bonus." After all, it is "just another target." Hit or miss, read em and weep. Grins and giggles when ya hit em though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 22 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said: I'd say that's a red herring. A clean match ought to be just that. Every target struck with no penalties. For a MD, just put out that bird, or that long shot on a smaller target. I bet you'll see no less smiles if you call it a bonus or not. We see lots of smiles here doing it. It's low risk if it doesn't count toward your clean match. Again IMHO that's the beauty of it...…….I see your point but advertiser's still know that $19.99 still makes people think differently than $20 even though it's only 1 penny difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 I LOVE BONUSES!!! Phantom couldn't be any more wrong! (Not really. I've just agreed with him far too much lately and had to get back on track. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Shapiro Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said: We see lots of smiles here doing it. It's low risk if it doesn't count toward your clean match. Again IMHO that's the beauty of it...…….I see your point but advertiser's still know that $19.99 still makes people think differently than $20 even though it's only 1 penny difference. Just to be a pain, it's more like $24.99 with a $5 discount at one store, vs $19.99 at another. :-p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goliath, SASS #41359 Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 A bonus should be something like a ticket in a drawing, not a time deduction. We have done drawings for a future free monthly match. goes over well with veryone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Shooting Bull said: I LOVE BONUSES!!! Phantom couldn't be any more wrong! (Not really. I've just agreed with him far too much lately and had to get back on track. ) I actually made a funny response...That apparently the Moderators felt wasn't...funny. Seriously, it was the kind of jab that friends make...kind of like yours. I think the world is going to hell when people can't see that the banter is done in jest amongst friends. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 54 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I actually made a funny response...That apparently the Moderators felt wasn't...funny. Seriously, it was the kind of jab that friends make...kind of like yours. I think the world is going to hell when people can't see that the banter is done in jest amongst friends. Phantom Well I'll pretend I saw it and took it with the friendly spirit with which it was intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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