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Do I need to get an AR or AK?


Rye Miles #13621

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1 hour ago, bgavin said:


AR-style rifles will become illegal.
Of this, I am absolutely 100% certain.
I live in California.

However, ARs will not be the match that ignites civil war.
That match will be gun confiscation for all semi-autos (shotguns, pistols, 22 plinkers, some deer rifles).

IMO, firearm owners won't make their stand over ARs.. it will be over semi-autos.
If somebody storms my house, I want them to meet Mr. Remington and #1 buck, not a varmint cartridge.

The DROS is the gun-registry the gov't will use to collect guns.

I disagree. This is not directed at you personally bgavin. This is directed at all of us. ALL IF US!

 

Gun owners will not revolt. I have listened to Sabre Rattling and chest thumping for far too long to believe that gun owners will ever come together to fight for their rights.

Oh sure, we all talk a good fight but that’s all it is, TALK!

If you are angry or perturbed by my words then more than likely you you know I am right in some far recess of your mind.

Gun owners are the most independent group of people I know. Independent in that we all have our own way of looking at things but we all do not look at things the same way as a group.

You want to watch dysfunction in action? Put a group of gun owners together. One will invariably decide he is in charge and that person will step up. Egos will flare and 2 or three people will challenge the first one. Then others will follow suit to challenge the two or three. And the fragmentation begins in earnest. I have seen it numerous times. 

Where? At shooting matches, at training sessions, at militia meetings...Yes, I was a early member of the California Militia movement in 1994. Talk about an eye opening flash in the pan! All it took to diffuse that effort was a rumor the FBI has infiltrated and so-called Second Amendment Warriors ran like scalded cats. That and a prominent member got an appointment to a high office in the NRA. Can’t have the stink of a militia affiliation when trying to navigate the political machine...orchestrated? Probably.

Gun owners will not revolt.

If it ever occurs I will be right up front.

But I doubt I will be standing. I will probably be in a motorized scooter by then...holding my 5 shot Winchester 94...I won’t legally be allowed any other high capacity weapon...

 

Yeah, I am a cynic. A cynic with experience. 

 

 

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On August 9, 2019 at 9:38 AM, Blast Masterson said:

I purchased an AR back when Hillery was running. Just because.

I purchased a .40cal and got a concealed carry renewed when the Nashville nut job mayor was cranking down on guns and my job required to pass on through Nashville all too often. Just because.

Then my neighbor got me shooting SASS. Now it resides in my safe.

I own one because "everyone" should own one. It's like voting, everyone should be engaged of you feel strongly about the subject. I don't need one (today), but it took six cops 56 rounds to put down the shooter in Dayton and I don't have that capacity with any of my other guns! You must have the right tools for the job at hand...

 

Just becuse they reside in your safe today doesn't mean they will not be needed in the future.  Just like house insurance, could come in handy when SHTF.

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You do have a valid point.

I live in CA (as do you), so you know first-hand the agenda of the Left, and the power of the Left.

Those with something to lose (me) are afraid of the power of the State.
CA could destroy me financially if they so choose.
The Founding Fathers faced the same threat.

The bums and tweakers here have nothing the State can take, including their freedom, because there is no room in the prisons to hold them.


What are you really going to do when cop(s) come to your door with a court order to confiscate your guns?

• Shoot the Cop
• Explain the 2nd Amendment
• Refuse Entry on 2nd Amendment grounds
• Stand by helplessly


#1 your rectum will be married to your cell mate for eternity
#2 will get you cuffed and placed in the police cruiser
#3 will get you beaten up, cuffed, and placed in the cruiser
#4 you watch them ransack and confiscate your gun safe


Law enforcement and the courts will systematically destroy you if you refuse to surrender your guns.

Which of your neighbors and friends will bring weapons and stand by you? 
Which of them is willing to be financially destroyed, made destitute and homeless by the courts?

Most have never learned the lessons taught by oppressive regimes. which is to fight back BEFORE they become entrenched.

 


 

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You really need one of each.  AK rifles are a bit looser on tolerances and operate far better in dirty or uncleaned conditions.  The 7.62x39 penetrates barriers much better than the 5.56 and ammo is a bit cheaper.  You can shoot steel cases all day and not worry about it.  You can buy 75 rounds drums that work great and don’t jam like the 5.56 snail drums that are not that reliable.  

 

AR does have lots of options to play with and can dress it all up, but it’s still a 5.56.   It is a bit more accurate in my experience, but you do have to take better care of it to ensure reliability.

 

Depending on the scenario, I would probably take a well made, nicer AK over an AR-15.

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Thanks for all the comments, still thinking about owning a gun I will probably never shoot! Hmmm.......:o

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14 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

You could get an AR in 9mm, that way you probably shoot at the indoor range and/or a PCC match.

I've actually been looking into that! I've shot one, I forget exactly which brand it was, and it shot good and was a hoot!!:)

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On 8/9/2019 at 8:38 AM, Blast Masterson said:

I purchased an AR back when Hillery was running. Just because.

I purchased a .40cal and got a concealed carry renewed when the Nashville nut job mayor was cranking down on guns and my job required to pass on through Nashville all too often. Just because.

Then my neighbor got me shooting SASS. Now it resides in my safe.

I own one because "everyone" should own one. It's like voting, everyone should be engaged of you feel strongly about the subject. I don't need one (today), but it took six cops 56 rounds to put down the shooter in Dayton and I don't have that capacity with any of my other guns! You must have the right tools for the job at hand...

I don't think it took 56 rounds, but that's how many they used.  

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Just now, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I've actually been looking into that! I've shot one, I forget exactly which brand it was, and it shot good and was a hoot!!:)

I built one for the KY State match earlier this year; has Colt style mag drop in block, I might sell it as I'm building a FM Products 9mm that takes Glock 17 mags.

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I got more than on AR-15.  Just like my other guns, they have differing uses.  And, they are the most versatile platform I've ever used.  I doubt I'll ever be without at least one or two.  I use them at work, for home protection and in competition.    Below is one I recently took to an active shooter interdiction course.  I've since replaced the 1 x 4 scope on this one with a 1 x 8.  Old eyes, ya know....

dd ambush.jpg

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18 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I've actually been looking into that! I've shot one, I forget exactly which brand it was, and it shot good and was a hoot!!:)

 

Hey Rye, have you considered a Ruger PC Carbine? They take either Glock magazines or Ruger American or SR series magazines. I bought one last year and it is hands down my favorite long gun to shoot.

 

It has a bit of a kick (a lot more than I expected from 9mm) so I installed a compensator. It’s an Odin Works Atlas 9 but I am sure any muzzle brake or camp can work.

 

These things are so ugly they are cool, but they are fun to shoot and I am sure they are perfectly fine for any local pistol range.

https://ruger.com/products/pcCarbine/models.html

 

If you look at “Ballistics by the Inch” you can see that 9mm out of a Carbine has some pretty decent velocity.

 

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

 

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On 8/10/2019 at 10:19 AM, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I disagree. This is not directed at you personally bgavin. This is directed at all of us. ALL IF US!

 

Gun owners will not revolt. I have listened to Sabre Rattling and chest thumping for far too long to believe that gun owners will ever come together to fight for their rights.

Oh sure, we all talk a good fight but that’s all it is, TALK!

If you are angry or perturbed by my words then more than likely you you know I am right in some far recess of your mind.

Gun owners are the most independent group of people I know. Independent in that we all have our own way of looking at things but we all do not look at things the same way as a group.

You want to watch dysfunction in action? Put a group of gun owners together. One will invariably decide he is in charge and that person will step up. Egos will flare and 2 or three people will challenge the first one. Then others will follow suit to challenge the two or three. And the fragmentation begins in earnest. I have seen it numerous times. 

Where? At shooting matches, at training sessions, at militia meetings...Yes, I was a early member of the California Militia movement in 1994. Talk about an eye opening flash in the pan! All it took to diffuse that effort was a rumor the FBI has infiltrated and so-called Second Amendment Warriors ran like scalded cats. That and a prominent member got an appointment to a high office in the NRA. Can’t have the stink of a militia affiliation when trying to navigate the political machine...orchestrated? Probably.

Gun owners will not revolt.

If it ever occurs I will be right up front.

But I doubt I will be standing. I will probably be in a motorized scooter by then...holding my 5 shot Winchester 94...I won’t legally be allowed any other high capacity weapon...

 

Yeah, I am a cynic. A cynic with experience. 

 

 

 

I won’t say that I entirely disagree with you. I WILL say that there are those who WILL resist, either overtly by standing and fighting, or covertly by concealing and moving their contraband weapons to safe locations, to be accessed when the time is right.  Many have already made such plans and in a number of cases, implemented said plans in anticipation of what may come.

 

How many initially resist will determine both the short term success of any confiscation and the long term success of continued enforcement.

 

Another factor to consider is how willing local authorities are to engage their neighbors in the enforcement of such confiscation. Many recent polls and surveys have cast at least SOME doubt on the feasibility of any widespread confiscation!

 

I know of a more than a few LEOs who would refuse to enforce any confiscation and might possibly be found in the vanguard of the resistance to such a threat.

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8 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

I won’t say that I entirely disagree with you. I WILL say that there are those who WILL resist, either overtly by standing and fighting, or covertly by concealing and moving their contraband weapons to safe locations, to be accessed when the time is right.  Many have already made such plans and in a number of cases, implemented said plans in anticipation of what may come.

 

How many initially resist will determine both the short term success of any confiscation and the long term success of continued enforcement.

 

Another factor to consider is how willing local authorities are to engage their neighbors in the enforcement of such confiscation. Many recent polls and surveys have cast at least SOME doubt on the feasibility of any widespread confiscation!

 

I know of a more than a few LEOs who would refuse to enforce any confiscation and might possibly be found in the vanguard of the resistance to such a threat.

Blackwater, I agree 100%. I know of more than a few LEO's myself that would have a really hard time confiscating guns from friends AND family!!! ;)

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34 minutes ago, bgavin said:

And, there were enough LEOs willing to murder women and children at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Every barrel has bad apples.

 We're talking about confiscation from law abiding citizens, not ever going to happen unless they repeal the second amendment!

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12 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

 We're talking about confiscation from law abiding citizens, not ever going to happen unless they repeal the second amendment!

When the Red Flag laws get passed all that is needed is someone that doesn't agree with you or simply doesn't like you; you're guns will be taken.

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

When the Red Flag laws get passed all that is needed is someone that doesn't agree with you or simply doesn't like you; you're guns will be taken.

Actually that’s generally not the way they are written. There needs to be a preponderance of evidence, not just a simple dislike.

Quote

Colorado HB 18-1436. (Partial)

The bill creates the ability for a family or household member or a law enforcement officer to petition the court for a temporary extreme risk protection order (ERPO). The petitioner must establish by a preponderance of the evidence that a person poses a significant risk to self or others by having a firearm in her or her custody or control or by possessing, purchasing, or receiving a firearm. The petitioner must submit an affidavit signed under oath and penalty of perjury that sets forth facts to support the issuance of a temporary ERPO and a reasonable basis for believing they exist. The court must hold a temporary ERPO hearing in person or by telephone on the day the petition is filed or on the court day immediately following the day the petition is filed.
After issuance of a temporary ERPO, the court must schedule a second hearing no later than 7 days following the issuance to determine whether the issuance of a continuing ERPO is warranted. If a family or household member or a law enforcement officer establishes by clear and convincing evidence that a person poses a significant risk to self or others by having a firearm in his or her custody or control or by possessing, purchasing, or receiving a firearm, the court may issue a continuing ERPO. The ERPO would prohibit the respondent from possessing, controlling, purchasing, or receiving a firearm for 182 days.

 

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Here in CA, this is exactly how it works today.

My neighbor's ex-wife is bat-crap-crazy, and filed an "I'm Afraid" complaint.
The cops came in, cleaned out his gun safe, and it took months to get his guns back.
Ammo disappeared though...

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

 We're talking about confiscation from law abiding citizens, not ever going to happen unless they repeal the second amendment!

Were you not around during Katrina? When the mayor of New Orleans decided that the only people that should have guns are the police, and the police started going door-to-door confiscating guns.

 

I am pretty sure the second amendment is still in effect. They did it anyhow.

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36 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Were you not around during Katrina? When the mayor of New Orleans decided that the only people that should have guns are the police, and the police started going door-to-door confiscating guns.

 

I am pretty sure the second amendment is still in effect. They did it anyhow.

 

With the help of California Highway Patrol officers. 

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Beware of owning AR's.  I only have one because i won it in a raffle.  Bought $40 worth of raffle tickets to win it.  Actually $20 because the other $20 was in a second raffle for another AR.  Since winning this gun, I've spent (all prices are approximate)

$50 on a transfer fee

$80 on an optic

$300 on a new trigger (one of them binary triggers)

$60 on a new grip so I'd have some storage space to keep the ATF letter stating my trigger doesn't make the gun full auto

$80 on a new magpul stock because the original stock kept collpasing and pulling my beard hairs.  It also had no good place for a cheek weld. 

 

That's not counting mags and ammo and it still doesn't even rate in my top 10 favorite guns to shoot.  That's 25X the initial investment.  Just imagine if I'd spent $100 or $1000 initially, I'd be broke by now. 

 

7 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I've actually been looking into that! I've shot one, I forget exactly which brand it was, and it shot good and was a hoot!!:)

 

I recommend the beretta CX4 storm.  It takes Model 92 mags.  It's  my second favorite gun to shoot.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Does the accused get to defend themselves at any point?

 

bgavins example is what I fear.

 

Depends on the state.  In some places it sounds a lot like a TRO.  They don't necessarily get a chance to defend themselves before the order to confiscate is given, but they should get a day in court eventually.  Then probably another day in court when they have to sue the PD to give the guns back. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Alpo said:

Were you not around during Katrina? When the mayor of New Orleans decided that the only people that should have guns are the police, and the police started going door-to-door confiscating guns.

 

I am pretty sure the second amendment is still in effect. They did it anyhow.

 

My recollection is that the people involved mistakenly believed that the area was under martial law and the second amendment was not in effect.  Since that time a law has been passed to make it clear that's not the case. 

 

 

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On 8/9/2019 at 1:07 PM, Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663 said:

Do you want an AR or AK is the better question.

 

Personally, I favor blued steel and nice wood firearms.  Black guns do not appeal to me.

 

62EF4F1E-CADA-431B-B04D-0749348FC950.jpeg

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3 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Does the accused get to defend themselves at any point?

 

bgavins example is what I fear.

Yes. The trick is the “Preponderance of Evidence” language. It might be a couple of people testifying under oath that you threatened them.  It will depend on the judge’s or jury’s ruling.

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1 minute ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Yes. The trick is the “Preponderance of Evidence” language. It might be a couple of people testifying under oath that you threatened them.  It will depend on the judge’s or jury’s ruling.

 

To say that these laws scare me is an understatement. Have to be very careful about who'd around when discussing shooting sports when I'm in the office.

 

About 2 years ago I had a nutjob look at me in a meeting and say, "When you go off and shoot everyone, please let me know so I can stay home that day." :unsure:

I took it up with HR and she had to apologize, but it still bothers me. I left that place, but still work with a lot of liberals; only go to the office 1-2 days a week though.

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As per resisting confiscation - gun owners may be an independent lot, but they can and do organize - in half a year about 2/3 of Illinois counties have passed gun sanctury resolutions and beyond that have met with Sheriffs and County States Attorneys to go on record to not enfore gun bans and unconstitutional laws. 

 

I do think things are changing over time. The rural midwest and the south are not the urban east and west coast. As laws become more restrictive and threatening resistance hardens and organizes. Organized not from militia groups today - but average citizens, police, council men and women, regular working men and women. No one seeks conflict or would seek to start conflict, but the phrase Molon Labe means you will have to take the arms, they will not be freely turned in. 

 

If the 2nd Amendment or the right of the people or shall not be infringed mean anything at all, then semiauto firearms that have been commonly owned and used for over a century cannot be banned constitutionally. If they are banned by a law then that law is in conflict with the basic rights codified  in the constitution and bill of rights. 

 

So there is a line in the sand and sadly some seem hell bent to cross it. 

 

Per most red flag laws - they do not have significant legal protections - someone makes an allegation and it is taken to a judge and he rules on the allegation without a jury, without representation for the accussed, and an order is issued. Later after one has had one's property confiscated one can contest it and try to prove the allegation isn't true. That's back asswards - allegations of wrong doing should be proved before one is deprived of their rights and property. 

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Raylan, your concept is sound.

However... the cost of defending yourself is staggering.
Been there, done that.

Justice costs money.
A whole lot of money.

The first order of business is the lawyer holding his hand out for the first, of many, $5000 retainers.

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Quote

If the 2nd Amendment or the right of the people or shall not be infringed mean anything at all, then semiauto firearms that have been commonly owned and used for over a century cannot be banned constitutionally. If they are banned by a law then that law is in conflict with the basic rights codified  in the constitution and bill of rights. 

Well if that were the case the ‘34 and ‘68 GCAs would have been ruled unconstitutional. We are at the mercy of SCOTUS.

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Yes we are at the mercy of the SCOTUS.....if we are willing to surrender our rights. 

 

But I do remember something from history class -  "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

 

As George Santayana said: "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

 

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I am not aware of NFA 34 or GCA 68 , ever being taking before the SC , in full 

strange thing GCA 68 , reads much like the 1938 act in Germany , 

given the orginal intent of the drafters , NFA 34 , and GCA68 , should be struck down 

in 1901 , there was a law not renewed the required all able body males , 18 to 45 , to own and maintain a mil grade rifle and ammo for the same , being part of the milita , according to the common reading of it to me 

 

 I figure some folks will take exception to this , but check the facts , and make your own call 

 

  Chickasaw Bill 

 

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