Uberti '66 wont load cast/reloads - Roll Crimp or bullet issue?

[IrishPsych]

I just picked up a what looks like a never fired 1866 24" yellowboy in 45 colt. I cast for handguns and have a 200gr lyman 452460 mold and a NOE 453-238-SWC. Well, I went through about a dozen dummy rounds and couldn't get them to load. I could get them drop into the barrel and eject but not initially load. 

 

I looked at some factory 250gr colt rounds I have I appears the crimp is significant. I may not be crimping enough, I can't really tell. The lyman 452460 seems like a smaller bullet and does not seem to want to load less than 1.60. Any passed that it there's no spot for the crimp to dig into. The NOE 238gr has plenty but still couldnt get that to work. 

 

I have the RCBS cowboy set of dies. It seats and roll crimps together which I don't like and might get a separate crimp die. That should be a roll crimp correct, not a taper? 

[Hollifer A. Dollar]

I have never had much luck with SWC bullets in my 73.  The step on the bullet tends to catch as it feeds into the chamber.  I load LRNFP bullets exclusively now.  FWIW, the SWCs did work in the 92 that I had & work OK in the 94 Marlin.

 

Holler

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Get some RNFP bullets.

OLG

[IrishPsych]

Ahh seriously? I bought that NOE mold specifically for a colt lever as review were great for it. 

 

I did remember I have a taper crimp and lee factory crimp die for 45. I tried the LEE FCD die on the 238 NOE bullet and it actually fed better, not consistent, but like 3 out of 5 times. The 200gr swc still hung up. They aren't jamming on the bullet but the case I think. 

[Anvil Al #59168]

SWC and lever rifles.

Just don't mix well.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

5 minutes ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

SWC and lever rifles.

Just don't mix well.

Even more so if the parts timing ain't 100% 'rite'.

OLG

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

7 minutes ago, IrishPsych said:

Ahh seriously? I bought that NOE mold specifically for a colt lever as review were great for it. 

 

I did remember I have a taper crimp and lee factory crimp die for 45. I tried the LEE FCD die on the 238 NOE bullet and it actually fed better, not consistent, but like 3 out of 5 times. The 200gr swc still hung up. They aren't jamming on the bullet but the case I think. 

There's a reason you don't see SWC bullets in SASS/CAS. 99% of the rifles won't feed'em.

Like I said-Go with RNFP.........

OLG

[Yusta B.]

Haven't seen anyone in SASS shooting those profile bullets & have them work reliable in 15 years.

160, 180 or 200 gr round nose flat points will give a more harmonious outcome.

[twelve mile REB]

Although many successfully seat and crimp in one operation there is sufficient evidence to suggest two steps is better.  Almost everyone has their favorite dies with which to do it.  My favorite is Dillon, because once you have adjusted them and locked them in place your done.  No more readjusting after cleaning or in the case of the sizing decapping die bending the pin on a rock or smaller case stuck inside.  Don't worry about the crimping groove as much as overall length at cowboy ranges its really not as much of an issue as length in feeding. 200 and 225 grain RNFP molds are available ask OLG he probably can give you the numbers.  Good luck.  

[Capt Stephen D Hill, SASS #56151]

I shoot a carbine '66 in 45colt. As long as I shoot rnfp I have never had a problem. I use a LEE 4 hole. I used to have alot of blowback in pistols and rifle until I got myself a factory crimp die. Now less blowback & never a problem shooting any grain bullet. BTW, I shoot 160's with TiteGroup power, Federal primers, and have brass i've reloaded at least 50-100 times. Load them until they split.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE too EVERYBODY  

 

I built toggle Link Rifles for CAS competition for pushing 20 years (I retired).  Toggle Link rifles WILL NOT reliability feed Semi-Wadcutter bullets.  PERIOD.  I don't care how you crimp them, cast them, load them.  Makes no difference.  Toggle Link rifles DO NOT play well with Semi-Wadcutters.  Complete agreement with Lumpy.  Switch to Cast Round Nose Flatpoint bullets.  In this game, semi-wadcutters are only suitable in handguns.

["Big Boston"]

In a 38Spl '66, a bullet like a Lyman 358477 will feed OK. However I think this thread is about the 45's. 

 

For my 38's I use a bullet without a crimp grove. It's lead, you can just crimp where you want. I check with my finger nail, if I can feel the case rim, I crimp some more. I'm on a budget (sort of) and use a LEE factory crimp die. I like that I can just give it a tweak if I think the crimp isn't good enough.

 

This is the bullet I use:

 

 

And the crimp.

 

 

I don't want my ammo to have anything to catch on when they are getting pushed into the chamber. 

 

It stands to reason that a larger caliber would be more particular. 

 

I don't think that the 200gr lyman 452460 will work, too much of a step, IMHO. Way more step than the 357 bullet I was using. I abandoned it only because I wanted a longer OAL. Is the 453-238 a HP bullet? the only picture I could find was for a 452-238, and it's a HP. 

 

Could someone post a picture of which bullets work well in the larger bore toggle link levers.. 

 

BB

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Well, bunches of different designs and vendors bullets work well in a big bore lever rifle (not just toggle rifles have difficulty - the pivoting carrier rifles can too, like the Winchester 92 or Marlin 94). I'll show you catalog cuts of the common Magma mold designs that work well.  The Round Nose Flat Point is very common, and the Truncated Cone design can give a little longer nose length in a given bullet weight when that is needed.  See picture.   Note that there is NO sharp shoulder or ledge on the nose of these designs.   And that they all have a flat tip (to be very safe in tubular magazines).

 

Also, just showing lubed lead bullets, not any poly coated slugs (so you can see a little more detail of the bullet design).

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Now, your overall length concern.

 

You  WILL have to load to an overall length shorter than 1.600" - because your toggle link rifle will jam up with longer lengths - the round will not fit in the carrier shaft.   AND you have to load longer than roughly 1.450" because the carrier will let a significant amount of the second round out onto the carrier along with the first round coming out of magazines, which jams the magazine because the carrier cannot force the second round back into the magazine when OAL is too short.  So, you have a target of "feedable" lengths between these two problematic min and max lengths.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

Sometimes just breaking the sharp edge of the rear of the chamber will help.

[Russ The Red]

3 hours ago, Capt Stephen D Hill, SASS #56151 said:

I shoot a carbine '66 in 45colt. As long as I shoot rnfp I have never had a problem. I use a LEE 4 hole. I used to have alot of blowback in pistols and rifle until I got myself a factory crimp die. Now less blowback & never a problem shooting any grain bullet. BTW, I shoot 160's with TiteGroup power, Federal primers, and have brass i've reloaded at least 50-100 times. Load them until they split.

You sound like one of the Folks I shoot with, he doesn't throw away brass until it runs away from him. When I am the brasser and retrieve his brass it comes in two halves which he holds together with rubber bands and then solders them at home. I certainly am being sarcastic but not by much.

 

My problems with reloads have been centered on OAL and proper roll crimp. I use Chey-Cast, hard-cast, poly coated round-nose flat point (recommended by Evil Roy). If you don't have the right shape in the Dillon bullet seating die you can end up with a shorter than desired OAL. Make sure you set that die after you have checked the bullet shape tool. There is a cylinder inside the die containing the brass bullet shape, one end is round nose and the other is round nose, flat point. My roll crimp is just centered on the crimping groove of the bullet and just enough roll so I clear the lever-action chamber and hold the bullet in place.

[Lead Monger]

Garrison Joe covered feeding a toggle rifle about as will as can be done. If you add a positive roll crimp that will prevent the bullet from being pushed into the case you have this issue wiped.

[IrishPsych]

6 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

In a 38Spl '66, a bullet like a Lyman 358477 will feed OK. However I think this thread is about the 45's. 

 

For my 38's I use a bullet without a crimp grove. It's lead, you can just crimp where you want. I check with my finger nail, if I can feel the case rim, I crimp some more. I'm on a budget (sort of) and use a LEE factory crimp die. I like that I can just give it a tweak if I think the crimp isn't good enough.

 

This is the bullet I use:

 

 

And the crimp.

 

 

I don't want my ammo to have anything to catch on when they are getting pushed into the chamber. 

 

It stands to reason that a larger caliber would be more particular. 

 

I don't think that the 200gr lyman 452460 will work, too much of a step, IMHO. Way more step than the 357 bullet I was using. I abandoned it only because I wanted a longer OAL. Is the 453-238 a HP bullet? the only picture I could find was for a 452-238, and it's a HP. 

 

Could someone post a picture of which bullets work well in the larger bore toggle link levers.. 

 

BB

 

It's 238gr when hollow point and 247 solid. I have the solid version. I got them to somewhat load seated to 1.545 and using the 45acp taper crimp. I wonder if the the actual 45 colt or 45 colt factory crimp die would help at all. Of course finding a differing mold would work. I can sell this NOE mold or use it as a heavier 45acp mold. 

 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Any bullet with a "lip" like those two and you're just asking for feeding probs.

Stick to RNFP and you'll be much happier.

[Sedalia Dave]

4 hours ago, IrishPsych said:

It's 238gr when hollow point and 247 solid. I have the solid version. I got them to somewhat load seated to 1.545 and using the 45acp taper crimp. I wonder if the the actual 45 colt or 45 colt factory crimp die would help at all. Of course finding a differing mold would work. I can sell this NOE mold or use it as a heavier 45acp mold. 

 

Foe 45 Colt you should always use a roll crimp. The taper crimp leaves a small edge that can catch on the chamber lip of lever action rifles.

That said in a toggle link rifle that profile bullet will never feed reliably. I suspect the people that gave you the advice that that bullet profile was good for lever guns were referring to an angled feed like a Marlin 94 or a Winchester 92.

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

At the risk of piling on; 

I tried 250 grain SWC's, I had been given, in my 1866 and my'73 and had problems described above.

I never experienced those issues with RNFP's

Use up your SWC's in your revolvers. That's what I'm doing

[IrishPsych]

This photo doesn't really help much BUT it showing 4 dummy rounds that chamber and eject without issues. A caster on another forum sent me bags of 3 different Lee bullets; a 200g, 230gr, and a 250gr. I loaded them and sat them all to around 1.580 and didn't have any issues. 

 

I did buy a factory collet crimp die, NOT the factory crimp die that can swage the bullet. The factory collet die might also be the trick. I loaded that green 247gr NOE SWC bullet, crimped it, and it chambers and ejects without issue. 

 

Is it a must I crimp in the groove? As long as the bullet can't get pushed down it should be fine right? 

 

I can try another set of dummy round a little longer I suppose. 

This photo doesn't really help much BUT it showing 4 dummy rounds that chamber and eject without issues. A caster on another forum sent me bags of 3 different Lee bullets; a 200g, 230gr, and a 250gr. I loaded them and sat them all to around 1.580 and didn't have any issues. 

 

I did buy a factory collet crimp die, NOT the factory crimp die that can swage the bullet. The factory collet die might also be the trick. I loaded that green 247gr NOE SWC bullet, crimped it, and it chambers and ejects without issue. 

 

Is it a must I crimp in the groove? As long as the bullet can't get pushed down it should be fine right? 

 

I can try another set of dummy round a little longer I suppose. 

 

[John Boy]

IrishPsych ...Visualize a SWC that has a flat nose and a round nose that doesn't and the mouth of the rifle chamber

* A round nose bullet reload laying on the carrier can roll over the mouth of the chamber even if the cartridge overall length varies

* A SWC nose bullet has a wide flat.  With the round laying on the carrier, the reload has to have a perfect length so it is presented into the chamber - Straight In otherwise the flat edge of the SWC is going from the carrier and nick the edge of the edge of the chamber mouth and cause chambering issues

Dollars to donuts, if you look at some of your SWC reloads ... your going to see a nick on the bullet nose

 

The reason SWC'er rounds don't hang up shooting in a semi auto handgun is because the bolt face holds the round perfectly center to the chamber and if the COL is not perfect - the rounds won't, causing chambering issues