Plainsman rifles: Modern vs Traditional

[Shifty Jack, SASS #65353]

So what specific rifles fall into the modern and traditional categories for plainsman? I know that it is ejector vs no ejector, but the info I can find really makes it look like it is Handi rifles vs everything else. Am I correct in assuming a trapdoor Springfield and Martini Henry would fall into the modern category as well?

[Hoss]

Basically it’s ejectors (modern)  vs extractors (Traditional) Trapdoors are traditional even tho they have an ejector. 

 

The Handi rifle is hard to beat. Winchester is making a short barreled hiwall they also work well. They have a system that allows you to have either ejector or extractor.

 

I have a original Trapdoor Carbine made in 1874. It’s just a fine old gun, and I enjoy shooting it. Hard to beat a Handi rifle with it though. And a pard, Clueless Bob, uses either a Maynard or a Burnside rifle. They are really neat rifles. (Both are originals)  

i have a 10G hammered double, my Trapdoor and currently shoot Pietta 58 Remingtons. I’m kinda wanting to get some original capguns so I can shoot all old originals. Not likely going to win, but I’ll gave more fun! (And I’m not likely going to win anyway!!!) 

 

jump in and and have fun. Way better than Wild Bunch! 

[watab kid]

ive owned a lot of extractor vs ejectors , the big thing is you finger nails bet busted up , i do enjoy them tho 

[Shifty Jack, SASS #65353]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

Basically it’s ejectors (modern)  vs extractors (Traditional) Trapdoors are traditional even tho they have an ejector. 

 

The Handi rifle is hard to beat. Winchester is making a short barreled hiwall they also work well. They have a system that allows you to have either ejector or extractor.

 

I have a original Trapdoor Carbine made in 1874. It’s just a fine old gun, and I enjoy shooting it. Hard to beat a Handi rifle with it though. And a pard, Clueless Bob, uses either a Maynard or a Burnside rifle. They are really neat rifles. (Both are originals)  

i have a 10G hammered double, my Trapdoor and currently shoot Pietta 58 Remingtons. I’m kinda wanting to get some original capguns so I can shoot all old originals. Not likely going to win, but I’ll gave more fun! (And I’m not likely going to win anyway!!!) 

 

jump in and and have fun. Way better than Wild Bunch! 

Glad you brought up the hi wall as that was one of the guns that was making me curious to the specifics. What about a Martini Henry, where would it fall in? I would like to be able to shoot plainsman from time to time and trying to figure out the best route to go.

[Hoss]

Martini Henry has an extractor  not ejector, I think. Would be traditional. 

[Shifty Jack, SASS #65353]

3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Martini Henry has an extractor  not ejector, I think. Would be traditional. 

So pretty much spring or no spring, not so much the intended function of the rifle?

[Hoss]

The rules seem kinda unclear to me. Says an original can be an ejector if that’s how it was built. 

 

Ive had people tell me my Trapdoor was modern. Most say traditional. I dont care all that much! It’s never going to beat a Handi Rifle. I just enjoy shooting it! 

[Lead Hammer]

Martini Henry - I could be wrong.......  Is not a SASS legal rifle.  It can't be used in Plainsman or any other SASS activity.

[Shifty Jack, SASS #65353]

10 minutes ago, Lead Hammer said:

Martini Henry - I could be wrong.......  Is not a SASS legal rifle.  It can't be used in Plainsman or any other SASS activity.

Why is that? It is of the period and black powder.

[Shifty Jack, SASS #65353]

2 minutes ago, Shifty Jack, SASS #65353 said:

Why is that? It is of the period and black powder.

Nevermind, no exposed hammer! You are correct sir.

[Lead Hammer]

Yup...... No exposed Hammer.  I'd be All in if I could use my hammerless 32/40 falling block........  Take care.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

10 hours ago, Lead Hammer said:

Martini Henry - I could be wrong.......  Is not a SASS legal rifle.  It can't be used in Plainsman or any other SASS activity.

 

Plainsman and Long Range sidematches require exposed hammers on rifles in all categories with one exception:
 

Quote

- Open Category (may be used at the match director’s option to include those firearms not covered by other official Long Range Categories). 

SHB p.30

[Three Foot Johnson]

I didn't know there were Modern and Traditional categories for Plainsman. The single paragraph in the Shooters Handbook doesn't mention categories...?

 

Our single, annual Plainsman event is this Saturday and this guy will be there!

 

We don't get enough participants to worry about anything other than a single shot rifle and distant targets - 100 to 200 yards this year, according to yesterday's email.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

4 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I didn't know there were Modern and Traditional categories for Plainsman. The single paragraph in the Shooters Handbook doesn't mention categories...?

 

Our single, annual Plainsman event is this Saturday and this guy will be there!

 

We don't get enough participants to worry about anything other than a single shot rifle and distant targets - 100 to 200 yards this year, according to yesterday's email.

Presently in Australia I have been told that our 10 stage 2 day Queensland State Title  is the worlds biggest Plainsman event...we have never shot targets that far out, usually we are at  40 - 80...we have about 30 shooters, apparently 39 is the record which was at Winter Range ...it's a great event & I love it....Information I stated was given by Capt G  Baylor.

[Chili Pepper Pete 11917]

This is what I think i know about the category’s in plainsman

 

Trap doors because of the complex nature of opening, fall into Traditional even thou they eject

 

Original 1885s that do not eject are traditional

 

Newer 1885s or Browning 78s fall into modern

 

Handi rifles with ejectors  Modern

 

Handi with extractor or ejector deactivated Traditional

 

Rolling Block traditional

 

Sharps,  Traditional

 

My basic take away is that if you hold the gun level and open the action,   if the empty casing clears the chamber,  its modern.

The trap door is the only exception I know of.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Chili

 

 

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

Do other folks Sharps rifles not kick the brass out when you flip the lever down?  Both my Shilohs do.   Original 1885s do this as well if you flip the lever down with your thumb.  

 

My problem doing rapid fire with a Sharps is chamber fouling, which makes it tough to get rounds in after a few shots.  

[Kid Rich]

Anneal your brass, use enough powder to expand the brass, use the correct powder to keep your fouling soft and if necessary use a lube cookie.

kR

[Clueless Bob]

Disclaimer first.  It’s 0630 and the only copy of the rules available to me right now for copy and paste is Version 21.8, 2016.  I don’t remember any major changes so this should do for the current discussion.

 

Plainsman

“Must use a SASS–legal single-shot rifle firing a traditional blackpowder rifle or revolver caliber cartridge (e.g., not a .30-30). The rifle may have spring actuated ejectors if they are standard for that rifle. .38 Special is legal
Must use a side by side or single shot shotgun.”

 

 

BASIC RULES FOR THE LONG RANGE COMPETITIONS

“Buffalo Single Shot competition has further restrictions requiring original or replica rifles to be a design of US manufacture. Spring-loaded ejectors are also prohibited, except for Springfield Trapdoor Rifles.”

 

Back when I set up and ran a Plainsman Match, these are the 2 sections I used to determine Traditional and Modern and why the Trapdoor is in Traditional class.  In short, I would say that if your trying to do target practice on your TO when you opened your rifles action, you were Modern.  If your worried about stepping on your brass when moving to a different position, you were Traditional.  In some circles, folks also wanted Ruger Old Armies put in the Modern category, but that is a discussion for a later time.  

 

“―Rifle Caliber‖ competition rifles must use traditional, period, rimmed cartridges. No cartridge chambered for use in any SASS approved main match revolver or rifle may be used in the ―Rifle Caliber‖ competition, except the .56-50. Thus, .30-30 (.30 WCF), .38-55 Marlin & Ballard, .43 Spanish, or .45-70 Government cartridges are legal, while a .375 Winchester, .444 Marlin, .32-20, or .44-40 are not legal. Shotguns using slugs are not allowed.”

 

The above rules actual makes my Burnside illegal, case is not a rimmed case(but I could argue the gas seal on the case is a rim, just not in a modern way, but I digress).  It would also rule out the Gallagher, Smith, Sharps(percussion), and others.  Odd since we portray 1860 to 1899 and this rule outlaws the very first cartridge based firearms.  I would love to see a “Civil War” category where these first cartridge guns could come out and play.  Though somewhat slower, they would not disrupt the flow to be a hindrance.  

 

[Joe LaFives #5481]

On a different note - You can use the Martini in the Bucky Oneill single shot event at Winter Range.

[Doc Coles SASS 1188]

15 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

Anneal your brass, use enough powder to expand the brass, use the correct powder to keep your fouling soft and if necessary use a lube cookie.

kR

I shoot full cases of bp with a 535 grain bullet in my 45-90 and a 500 grain bullet in my 50-70, both using SPG lube.  I think I am getting enough case expansion.  I don’t use lube cookies, but I could look into it.  

[Sedalia Dave]

23 hours ago, Clueless Bob said:

The above rules actual makes my Burnside illegal, case is not a rimmed case(but I could argue the gas seal on the case is a rim, just not in a modern way, but I digress).  It would also rule out the Gallagher, Smith, Sharps(percussion), and others.  Odd since we portray 1860 to 1899 and this rule outlaws the very first cartridge based firearms.  I would love to see a “Civil War” category where these first cartridge guns could come out and play.  Though somewhat slower, they would not disrupt the flow to be a hindrance.  

 

I second this idea. I would love to own a 59 or 63 sharps and would if there was a category where I could legally use it.

[Rancho Roy]

So my 50-70 original Sharps is legal?

[Kid Rich]

8 hours ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

I shoot full cases of bp with a 535 grain bullet in my 45-90 and a 500 grain bullet in my 50-70, both using SPG lube.  I think I am getting enough case expansion.  I don’t use lube cookies, but I could look into it.  

I also shoot a 45/90 and a 45/70 trapdoor plus a few others. In our dry desert heat if you don't have the right combo of load powder etc you will foul your gun quickly. I have run 30 rounds thru my original trapdoor with no loss of accuracy and the fouling in the barrel and the lube star at the muzzle both remain soft and can be wiped off with a dry patch. The barrel will by hot but the fouling remains soft. No use of blowtube  or wet patches between shots. I don't use spg.

kR

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Rancho Roy said:

So my 50-70 original Sharps is legal?

 

Yes. However for Plainsman Matches you may have to down load considerably so that you do not damage close in targets. This applies to all rifles used in Plainsman matches.

When targets are heavy and 40 or more yards from the firing line full house loads with big bullets are acceptable. When the range design means that the targets are closer than 40 yards you will need to load accordingly. I know a few plainsman shooters that use a round ball over 40 or so grains of BP with filler to make up the difference.  You seat the ball so that about 60% is inside the case with the rest of the ball sticking above the case mouth. A slight bump in a seating die to roll the case mouth in a tiny bit and you have the perfect close range Plainsman load.

[Three Foot Johnson]

2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Yes. However for Plainsman Matches you may have to down load considerably so that you do not damage close in targets. This applies to all rifles used in Plainsman matches.

 

I normally use an H&R .45-70 w/stock open sights and a 405 deep seated over 40 grains Goex 2f.

[Kid Rich]

3 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Yes. However for Plainsman Matches you may have to down load considerably so that you do not damage close in targets. This applies to all rifles used in Plainsman matches.

When targets are heavy and 40 or more yards from the firing line full house loads with big bullets are acceptable. When the range design means that the targets are closer than 40 yards you will need to load accordingly. I know a few plainsman shooters that use a round ball over 40 or so grains of BP with filler to make up the difference.  You seat the ball so that about 60% is inside the case with the rest of the ball sticking above the case mouth. A slight bump in a seating die to roll the case mouth in a tiny bit and you have the perfect close range Plainsman load.

In my 45/70 plainsman loads I use 45 gs 2f or 3f OE and a 457 RB this load is accurate to at least 100 yds. I haven't tried it farther. It gets there pretty fast.

kR

[Seamus McGillicuddy]

 

The top five are Plainsman ready. .50 Maynard (capping breachloader) .50-70 Sharps, .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield, .577 Snider, .50-70 Rolling Block. The 11mm Mauser 71 and Gras 74 don’t make the cut unless match allows bolt action.  I really like single shot carbines. 

 

Seamus

[Three Foot Johnson]

I'll be dawged - I placed first out of seven at our annual Plainsman match back on the 10th. H&R .45-70 Handi rifle w/factory barrel sights, 1858, and an 18" single shot 12g. That doesn't happen very often.

[Sedalia Dave]

13 minutes ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I'll be dawged - I placed first out of seven at our annual Plainsman match back on the 10th. H&R .45-70 Handi rifle w/factory barrel sights, 1858, and an 18" single shot 12g. That doesn't happen very often.

 

Congratulations.