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Annealing


Fat Tuesday

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Personally, I only anneal my Rifle brass.  I found Annealed pistol brass is often hard to extract.  For some odd reason, most of my .45 handguns have a chamber that is wider toward the front than the rear and the cases hang up badly at the rear.  This has ben the result with C45S brass.  I haven't run any full length cases thru my handguns nor have I run any 45 Schofield.  You could certainly try it.  But I'd suggest trying it at a practice range first :wacko:   Surprises at a match are not necessarily lots of fun  :(

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I’d rather waste time on something else, just sayin.

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38-40 and 44-40 absolutely will benefit from annealing. But the brass is thin and you really need to know what you are doing. Temp-laq is a must. And a mechanical annealing machine is recommended. www.rvbprecision.com     Do a search for annealing

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Aw Contraire ..... If, what you happen to have is a .45 Rifle, and you want it to shoot as cleanly as a 44-40 or 38-40, and you don't have the $1100 - 1500 to lay out for a new rifle, then the couple of hours of quality boredom with your torch and cordless don't seem so wasted.  The procedure is particularly suited to straight wall .45 or 44 Spl cases as used in rifles.  For hand guns, not so much.

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1 hour ago, Rancho Roy said:

38-40 and 44-40 absolutely will benefit from annealing. But the brass is thin and you really need to know what you are doing. Temp-laq is a must. And a mechanical annealing machine is recommended. www.rvbprecision.com     Do a search for annealing

 

An absolute waste of time for both CAS loads and high pressure loads.  After thousands of 44-40 test loads at nearly 20,000PSI (well past 22,000CUP - Winchester 1910 "High Velocity" Load pressures)...and practically double of the SAAMI max 11,000psi, I have never had a case problem/failure from lack of annealing (Starline, Remington and Winchester brass). The only case splits came from "slit" bulges on the case mouth from using oversized diameter bullets with the LFCD.
 

66698488_1214865565360691_1700307548814442496_n.jpg

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41 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Aw Contraire ..... If, what you happen to have is a .45 Rifle, and you want it to shoot as cleanly as a 44-40 or 38-40, and you don't have the $1100 - 1500 to lay out for a new rifle, then the couple of hours of quality boredom with your torch and cordless don't seem so wasted.  The procedure is particularly suited to straight wall .45 or 44 Spl cases as used in rifles.  For hand guns, not so much.

A middle of the road load in .45 Colt, with a 230-255gn bullet also solves the blow back issue. ;)

The use of a firm roll crimp is vital.

I like the Lee FCD for this.

https://leeprecision.com/carbide-factory-crimp-die-45-colt.html

OLG

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Nope.  A middle of the road load with a big heavy bullet does NOT solve the blow-back issue.  It may reduce it but will not eliminate it.  This is also true for BP.  The 45 Colt case simply WILL NOT expand sufficiently to seal the chamber.  

 

I do not, and have not, ever, suggested annealing for 44-40 nor 38-40 to extend case life.  THAT is a waste of time and effort.  The bottleneck cases seal quite adequately with their already thin and malleable necks.

 

The Blow-Back problem is at it's worst in Uberti built 45 Colt rifles.  The chamber is simply cut too large.  The only way to beat a chamber cut that way is to anneal the cases.

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I beg to differ. When I start getting too many case neck splits on my 44-40 cases I anneal them and reduce the splitting for the next 2-3 loading by 80%. And OLG, you say a firm roll crimp is vital, and then say to use a LEE FCD die, which isn't a roll crimp die. I am confused by this.

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6 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Nope.  A middle of the road load with a big heavy bullet does NOT solve the blow-back issue.  It may reduce it but will not eliminate it.  This is also true for BP.  The 45 Colt case simply WILL NOT expand sufficiently to seal the chamber.  

 

I do not, and have not, ever, suggested annealing for 44-40 nor 38-40 to extend case life.  THAT is a waste of time and effort.  The bottleneck cases seal quite adequately with their already thin and malleable necks.

 

The Blow-Back problem is at it's worst in Uberti built 45 Colt rifles.  The chamber is simply cut too large.  The only way to beat a chamber cut that way is to anneal the cases.

I have pretty much zero BB with 7.0gn of Unique and a 250gn plated SWC in my Marlin 94.

OLG

 

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being the old man out I built an annealer and do run my .45 Colt brass through it after a number of reloading.  cut split cases way down.

 

I like to tinker  and once I built the machine figured I needed to use it 

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59 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I beg to differ. When I start getting too many case neck splits on my 44-40 cases I anneal them and reduce the splitting for the next 2-3 loading by 80%. And OLG, you say a firm roll crimp is vital, and then say to use a LEE FCD die, which isn't a roll crimp die. I am confused by this.

 

Kind of hard to explain and is why in most cases I reply to/for a specific application. For me it depends on the crimp design in the bullet or if it even has one, and what powders I am using. For Reloder 7 I use a harder crimp for better powder burn...for Unique, a lighter crimp is all thats needed based on rifle or revolver loads i.e. adequate crimp for smokeless loads to prevent inertial dislodgement in revolvers, or "telescoping" from compression of tubular magazine spring in lever-actions

After tens of 1,000s of rounds shot in well over 10 years, I have had no case splits except for the splits from the LFCD as explained. I have dealt with vintage 1880's brass though....different story. Maybe I have been extremely lucky?

BTW Slim did you get the gold dust I sent for the bullets?

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I did receive everything and will be making some bullets with your mould soon.

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I annealed my .45 Colt rifle brass and don't consider it wasted time.  Before annealing I would spend time during a match and after a match cleaning soot.  After annealing I don't have a soot problem at all.  After a match I wipe the visible parts of my rifle, bore snake it one time and that's it.    Your mileage may vary!

 

Blackfoot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Brass hardens when placed under pressure and heat. Once the brass hardens it will more easily split. Annealing removed the "work" hardening of the brass and bring it back to or even softer than original state.

 

Once brass is annealed it will expand easier to seal the chamber and this expansion and contraction is what leads to case splits as shown in the photo someone posted above.

 

Annealing can decrease this issue substantially.....

 

If you are shooting 38 specials that you are buying extremely inexpensively, then dont bother. Throw them away if the split and move on.

 

If you are shooting more difficult to source and more expensive cases, then it might not be a waste of time.

If you are shooting 45Colt and experiencing blowby, annealing might be the answer. Some 45Colt brass I've used was extremely hard from the factory. 

 

If you are like Cheyenne Ranger and I and simply love to be in the reloading room and "tinkering"...... Then this is a good way to spend some time

 

 

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17 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I beg to differ. When I start getting too many case neck splits on my 44-40 cases I anneal them and reduce the splitting for the next 2-3 loading by 80%. And OLG, you say a firm roll crimp is vital, and then say to use a LEE FCD die, which isn't a roll crimp die. I am confused by this.

 

The Lee FCD for .44WCF is a fingered collet-

The FCD for straight walled revolver cases, uses a 'ring' to roll crimp, along with a second carbide size ring.

OLG

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I did it for 2-3 matches. I lost some of the rifle brass and some of the brass I did get back wasn't mine....so I annealed brass for another shooter. Decided not to do that anymore. 

I didn't see much benefit when I did anneal the brass.

 

That's my 2 cents.

That and 98 more cents will get you a bottle of water. 

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The FCD is not a roll crimp die. It used the collets to squeeze the brass in a ring slightly down from the edge of the brass. A true roll crimp die rolls the top edge of the brass into the bullet. Not the same thing. I do have some FCD's I use with rifle brass, but don't like it for use with my BP pistol rounds as I don't feel it holds the bullet in place well enough for use in a tubular action rifle.

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5 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

The FCD is not a roll crimp die. It used the collets to squeeze the brass in a ring slightly down from the edge of the brass. A true roll crimp die rolls the top edge of the brass into the bullet. Not the same thing. I do have some FCD's I use with rifle brass, but don't like it for use with my BP pistol rounds as I don't feel it holds the bullet in place well enough for use in a tubular action rifle.

 

This version of the FCD most certainly does make a roll-crimp.

Even states such in the die's description.

https://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die/

 

These dies are for straight walled cases and not for BN type.

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52 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

S Slim  :P

 

Trying to confuse Lumpy with facts is a waste of time.  He has "alternative facts" that cover everything  :)

 

And I add links, to support my 'alternative facts'.........:lol::P

OLG

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Maybe you have a older one of a different style. Mine is the collet type with fingers, so mine certainly not a roll crimper in the traditional sense. In any case, I don't really  like them except when I am making BP .22 LR cartridges. 

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51 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Maybe you have a older one of a different style. Mine is the collet type with fingers, so mine certainly not a roll crimper in the traditional sense. In any case, I don't really  like them except when I am making BP .22 LR cartridges. 

 

Lee makes 2 different types. ;)

OLG

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I had so much blowback with .44 spl ammo in my Marlin '94 that I had to anneal the brass. It wasn't a matter of keeping debris out of the action, it was a matter of keeping debris out of my eyes. And I wear shooting glasses.  I have a .45Colt '73 (Uberti) on order (Cody Matic) and am anticipating that I might need to anneal the .45Colt brass as well.  Or, as already noted, use a higher pressure load. 

 

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On 8/4/2019 at 12:44 PM, Fat Tuesday said:

The internet has mixed reviews on annealing pistol brass.  So, to anneal or not to anneal??  


When I first read this topic I read down to the 38-40/44-40 reply before I replied.

 

Back to the main question......."...to anneal or not to anneal..."

 

It seems to depends on calibers being shot.

45 Colt - seams to work for folks to soften the THICK cases in order to better seal the chamber when using black powder?

38 Special/357 Magnum - I have seen tons of split case mouths with full loads, could help seal the chamber with BP so probably not worth it for CAS light smokeless loads?
44 Magnum - maybe...thick brass well defined roll crimp for full loads  but for CAS???  nah!!!! (The black powder thing again...sure...maybe to seal the chamber)
44 Special - no, maybe to soften when using black powder to seal the chamber.

38-40 - no

44-40 - no, the case mouths are so thin it is not needed for typical 11,000psi or less loads. SAAMI max is 11,000psi...most CAS loads are lightly loaded 8,000-9,000psi. Even 6.4gr of Trail Boss is only pushing 7,500psi...after 30 consecutive shots, my barrel never got hot. Early 1800's brass or maybe even just older 1940's where age takes affect, then annealing is needed.

-40 Case thickness:
Winchester - thinnest
Starline - middleoftheroadist
Remington - thickest

Even in my 20,000psi (greater than 22,000cup) "High Velocity" loads...(not for 73's and revolvers)...many many reloads and only 4 splits. 3 splits are from using .430 diameter bullets and the LFCD. Even though, only three of thousands. One was a horizontal split for unknown but concerned split but never seen again. This is from loading thousands and thousands of reloads of which nearly half were at least 18,000psi loads. I have thrown away more brass from die misalignment dents and over trimming. Yes, I only had to trim once I hit high pressure loads where the case mouths actually stretch. My set screw came loose and I didn't notice...over trimming nearly 100 cases....I have yet had a trimmed case split! Maybe I have been lucky or maybe just doing something right for a change!!!

I still have the four cases and use then ever so often for one reason or another. The second from the right is the one I showed the other day but have since resized and expanded the case mouth. The second from the left and the last one were reloaded and shot five more times with normal loads to document split progression...notice secondary split on last case mouth. 

One other thing to consider if you run into the 44-40 LFCD splits with oversized bullets is that when reloading time after time, that case mouth "bump" that can result is always in different locations after each reload. If they happen to cross over each other it could advance the weakness. case mouth "damage" can also create a weak point.

 

68417979_1233955380118376_2762722367233851392_o.jpg

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If you are a 45 colt BP shooter then annealing 45 colt brass absolutely makes a huge difference, maybe even a ginormous difference in blow back which is especially useful in your rifle.

 

I've been annealing for 5 or 6 years now and I would not go back.  Actually I did this past weekend when I forgot my rifle ammo and had to borrow non-annealed rounds. The weather was horrid, very hot and what felt like 100% humidity..something my 1860 Henry and I don't care for anyway but on the first stage by the 9th round I had to fight to lever the gun.  Didn't think much of it because I was so miserable from the weather but after struggling through the second stage I took at  look at my horribly fouled rifle and realized that I needed to clean and Ballistol it after every stage. 

 

When I got home I had to take the rifle apart and clean it....the first time I did that in 4 years because my annealed brass keeps the receiver clean...I shoot at least 30 matches a year plus in the backyard and go through about 30lbs of BP a season so I think I've got enough practical experience to make this claim.

 

I did try various crimps, bigger bullets etc but only annealing made a difference.  I also use Winchester brass which is supposed to have the thinnest neck wall.

 

Willy

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I shoot Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter with .38 Special and take my Uberti .357 1873 rifle apart after every shoot to clean it. 

 

I am just about ready to try my experiment to see if I can stop the blow by residue so I don't have to take the rifle apart so often:

  1. Bought a Slix .357 Magnum chamber scraper to make sure the chamber doesn't have built up crud from the thousands of .38 Special Triple 7 rounds I have already shot.
  2. Bought 400 new Winchester .357 Magnum brass as they are supposed to be thinner than Starline.
  3. Annealed all 400 of them last night
  4. Bought 158 grain bullets from Desperado Bullets
  5. Will inside chamfer the case mouths.
  6. Full case of Triple Seven.
  7. Should get my order of Redding Dual Ring Carbide Dies today.
  8. Lee Factory Crimp
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I bought an Anneal-Rite setup and two torches. 

 

I was doing about 6 cases per minute.

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1 hour ago, Dead_Head said:

I bought an Anneal-Rite setup and two torches. 

 

I was doing about 6 cases per minute.

I had a DIY version of that.  Worked pretty good but I found I was not giving every case consistently the same treatment so I went for an  Annealeez  I usually do about 2k per season and reload them once or twice, then re-anneal over the winter.  Also anneal my 45-70.

 

 

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