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Preliminary test of 357 Long Colt ammunition.


"Big Boston"

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In the beginning of the year I shortened some 38 Special brass and performed some load testing. It was a proof of concept, or rather to prove the concept to my satisfaction. Initially I wasn't too impressed, but the arthritis in my hands doesn't seem to be improving with age, so I want to load some lower power factor loads for my 357 Magnum hip guns. 38 Long Colt, with heeled bullets is another animal altogether, so to avoid any confusion I call my loads 357 Long Colt. 

 

I have a supply of 125 grain bullets that don't seem to work well in 357 Mag brass, so those are the ones I chose for testing. 

 

To my way of thinking, Trail Boss should be a good powder to use, high pressure with low velocity and a better loading density than most other pistol powders. To that end I began testing with a load of 2.15 grains of Trail Boss. And to begin with I picked my mildest primer, a S&B, (Sellier & Bellot) SP. It is the mildest, least brisance primer in my collection and it has a soft cup. 

 

The chrono results were not great, greatest area of concern was with powder forward, Es and Sd were high and the first shot was really low in velocity.

 

Velocity Av

559/593

Es

90/48

Sd

38/18.5

Shots

5>/5<

 

I test my loads for Velocity, Extreme Spread and Standard deviation. My procedure is shooting 2 five shot strings over the screens. The first 5 shots are powder forward, in other words the gun is pointed down first, slowly raised so as to keep the powder against the bullet, and fire. Repeat for the next 4 shots. I then shoot another 5 shot string but this time start with the gun pointed up, slowly lower so as to keep the powder against the primer and fire. Repeat for the next 4 shots. 

 

This usually means that more powder is required, but the velocity just under 600 fps was intriguing. So for the interst of keeping the velocities low, I started testing the same load with a different primer. My second test was with a CCI 500, it has somewhat more brisance than the S&B, and perhaps this is what was needed, instead of an increase in powder. 

 

Velocity Av

587/607

Es

79/28

Sd

32/11.1

Shots

5>/5<

 

Results were encouraging, velocities increased slightly but more significantly the Es and Sd were better than with the S&B, both powder forward and rearward. Sd for powder rearward was approaching single digit. 

 

For the next test, I substituted a Fed 100M, it is a high(ish) brisance primer with a soft cup that shows pressure fairly well. In the past I've found it works well with powder forward, but sometimes at the expense of Sd for powder rearward. My test results were good, so good that I forgo testing with the Winchester SP that was next on my list.

 

Velocity Av

607/623.5

Es

9.7/ 14.19

Sd

4.6/5.1

Shots

5>/5<

 

Testing on paper confirmed it as being good ammunition. 

 

Power factor is just under 80 and it shoots well in my pair and the spare. Crud build-up is not bad, after 30 rounds I was able to slip a cylinder full of 357 Mag into it with no issues. I do not like the crud ring, but the 80 PF makes it easier to live with.

 

The picture is of my 357 Long Colt ammo, and some 357 Mag ammo for size comparison, along with my 125 grain bullet. The bullet is commercial cast, coated with Hi-Tech.

 

M49dxGnm.jpg

 

   

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Trail Boss has the highest loading density of all powders with a VMD=0.2172.
The lowest published TB load I've seen is 2.0 grains in 38SP cases for the 148 grain Hornady #10208 LHBWC bullet.
OAL is 1.16" with a PSI=15,100 for this published load.

These numbers don't work in Quickload, so I will believe the Hodgdon published loads for PSI and not Quickload.

#10208 is identified as having a seating depth of 0.620", with a usable case volume of 9.139 grains / 0.593 cc.
QL shows 2.0 grains of TB at a max pressure of only 5241, so QL does not agree with Hodgdon.

Are you certain you are not under-charging your case by using 2.1gr of TB?
As I understand the load charts, the Min and Max are the linear charge range.
Above or Below is exposure to detonation or other risk.

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For the record, you don't have to use heeled bullets in .38 Long Colt.   Yes, the oldest guns in this caliber did have a larger bore, but they actually changed that at one point to use the same size bullets as the .38 Special.

 

For example, my Colt 1877 Lighting revolver made in 1884 has the older larger bore.  My other Lightning made in 1902 has the smaller one.   

 

You can run .38 Long Colts with the smaller bullet in any modern gun chambered for .38 Special, or .357 Magnum with no problems.

 

And even if you have some older Long Colts that have the larger bore, you still don't need the heeled bullets.   Since I have guns in both configurations, I use a 350 grain round nose hollow point bullet of .358" diameter that I load inside the case, just like a .38 Special.   I use 2.0 grains of Trail Boss for smokeless, BP for the older guns I have in this caliber.   It is a very mild shooting load that should fit your needs quite well.   And if you want, you can use the same regular bullet you are already using.   If you can't find a listing for the bullet you want you use, just use the "formula."  Find out where the bottom of the bullet sits in the case.  When the powder just touches the base of the bullet with no compression, that is your max load.  Your starting load would be 70% of that.

 

For that matter, you can even use .38 Short Colts if you really want to go even lower power.   1.2 Grains of Trailboss behind the above mention 150 grain RNHP works very well.  It's just slightly above "mouse fart" levels, but works great in my .38 Special derringer, for example, as well as my 1884 Colt DA revolver (Army Surplus!)

 

Good luck

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1 hour ago, Warden Callaway said:

Will the "Long Colt" cycle in a Marlin 1894?  

 

Sawmill Mary shot 38 Short Colt in her Cattleman for years before traiding up to 44WCF.  Loaded with TiteGroup. 

 

I am gonna guess probably not.   Last year I got my brother a Rossi 92 in .357 Magnum.  Out of curiosity, I tried to see if Long Colts would cycle in it.   Two came out of the magazine when I tried it.  Or, one and half, but you get the idea. 

 

I don't know for sure, but I'd wager that the Marlin would experience the same issue.

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10 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

I am gonna guess probably not.   Last year I got my brother a Rossi 92 in .357 Magnum.  Out of curiosity, I tried to see if Long Colts would cycle in it.   Two came out of the magazine when I tried it.  Or, one and half, but you get the idea. 

 

I don't know for sure, but I'd wager that the Marlin would experience the same issue.

 

Not necessarily.   I have a 1894 "adjusted" (with help from a friend) to feed C45S.  Marlin 1894 will often feed 38 Special and 357 Magnum or 44 Special and 44 Magnum.   I've tried loading 38 Short Colt but they are just too short to even feed into the tube. 

 

I may shorten a few 38 Special to Long length and try.  Not so much interested in mouse fart loads but would like to have a shorter round for my 1894c. 10 rounds of 38 Special gets real crowded in the short tube.

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On 8/1/2019 at 9:59 PM, bgavin said:

Trail Boss has the highest loading density of all powders with a VMD=0.2172.
The lowest published TB load I've seen is 2.0 grains in 38SP cases for the 148 grain Hornady #10208 LHBWC bullet.
OAL is 1.16" with a PSI=15,100 for this published load.

These numbers don't work in Quickload, so I will believe the Hodgdon published loads for PSI and not Quickload.

#10208 is identified as having a seating depth of 0.620", with a usable case volume of 9.139 grains / 0.593 cc.
QL shows 2.0 grains of TB at a max pressure of only 5241, so QL does not agree with Hodgdon.

Are you certain you are not under-charging your case by using 2.1gr of TB?
As I understand the load charts, the Min and Max are the linear charge range.
Above or Below is exposure to detonation or other risk.

 

yWcETScl.jpg

 

The bullet I loaded is not the same as the one used by Hodgdon. My OAL is 1.225" and not the 1.400" listed in the Hodgdon data. Pressure is low, however the cases are not overly smoked, not shiney, but not black. Another indicator, the less than subtle variations when changing primers tells me that the charge is a bit low for the volume and that ignition is nearing erratic. I plan on completing some more tests at a later date. I'd like to load to just shy of 1000 fps with some other powders, for S&G mostly. Hodgdon doesn't list pressure. My bullet has a seating depth of 0.32" (0.52 long). I measures the usable volume, and it is app. 0.78 cc. (12 gr avg of water).

 

It's my experience that velocities of a shorter case in a 357 Mag chamber are a bit lower than those listed in a shorter chamber. My chrono is generous as well, IMHO.

 

BTW, the 357 Long, @ an OAL of 1.225" won't cycle in a stock '66. Too short.

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I run 38 short colt ammo loaded with Vihtivouri N-310 and 38 special ammo in my USFA revolvers with no problem switching to the longer ammo. 

The short colt ammo chronos around 700 FPS with single digit standard deviation 

the 38 special is about 900 in rifle and 575 in pistol with SD in the 50-60 

 

38 Long Colt won’t feed in my rifle without a new Carrier 

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In your chart above, Hodgdon doesn't list pressure, but you know they won't use a max load that exceeds SAAMI specs for that cartridge.
That gives you some idea of the upper end of these loads.

My initial thoughts are figuring out what Hodgdon is using for a net case volume for their Min/Max loads.
These would be my guides for avoiding detonation.
I've not had much luck with this because Hodgdon just specifies "cast LRN" or some such.

If you need more velocity, take a peek at IMR Red.
It is a new powder (2016) with a VMD=0.1423 which is only about 65% of the packing density.
It is a fast powder nearly identical in burn rate as Clays.
As a new powder, pressure is in PSI, not CUP.
This might be a viable option in the shorter 38 Long Colt case (1.0310")

It will be interesting to see what you come up with...
My problem is the opposite of yours... the Marlin 1894 cycles better with 357 OAL at 1.59" unless the carrier is Widderized.

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I had not considered using the 38 Long Colt in a rifle, but the posts mentioning it got me to thinking and doing a bit of research. It does look like this is a thing in the Marlin. The lifter needs a bit of modifying, and complete instructions are readily found online. I just searched Widder(ized)

 

That got me here https://marauder.homestead.com/Rifles.html

 

Now it looks like an 1894 Marlin is back on the bucket list. 

 

IMR Red or Red Dot were on the radar for my next try. I'll hold off further experimenting until my Starline brass arrives. Red Dot worked well in my 44-40 rifles, however, some of my testing in 357 was a bit discouraging. 

 

I have a Winchester 1873 ordered, and have a few ideas on ammo for it. 

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I had a long and productive conversation with Widder about this very topic.

He said I can pull the extractor bobby-pin and run a test.
Load two dummy rounds or Snap Caps
Chamber the first.

Roll the gun so the first cartridge falls out.
This lets you see the 2nd round and how it sits on the claw.
If the claw is up near the primer pocket, this length of round will chamber correctly.
If the claw is too low / far away from the primer pocket, the carrier needs Widderizing.

Gunner Gatlin in Michigan is the smith who does this work.
He brazes in a piece of hardened steel with another 0.10" +/- on the carrier.
This also solves the premature wear problem, as I understand it.. an underlying cause of the "Marlin jam"

I plan to do in the near future a high-resolution set of photographs to demonstrate this test procedure.
This is a sample image.
 

2019.05.31-Vaquero-Bisley-008-048.levels.960.sfw.jpg

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Interesting thread, several different subjects.

 

I think Marlins are more 'lenient' in accepting shorter OAL than '92's and Uberti's. I have 3 Marlins that will run .38 Long Colt just fine ( Widdermatic  1972 .357, minor gunsmithing 1979 .357, Spur Marlin .357/.38). On some Marlin Forums it was discussed how some older .357's (not .357/.38, as stamped on barrel) would not run smoothly .38 Spec.

 

Sometimes when shooting my .357/.38 Vaqueros I will shoot .38 SC loaded with 1.5-1.7 gr. Trail Boss, 125 gr bullet. 

 

In pistols (all calibers), when I load with Clays, I use recommended minimum load for Clays, and freely interchange powders of Clays, Red Dot, Clay Dot, and IMR Red without changing settings on reloader. Also in the rifle, but slightly higher powder charge. I do this also with shotgun, and found the IMR Red is more dense and will weigh about 1.0 grain more than Clays/Red Dot/Clay Dot out of same MEC #25 bushing. No difference in felt recoil.

 

RRR

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3 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

Will the 38 Long Colt hold enough  black or subs to qualify?  

 

This quote is from http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.3.html :

"If you shoot one of the smaller cartridges, .38 Special of one of the .32s, you should not have to do this. A .38 Special filled with APP FFFg to the base of the bullet is a very mild shooting load that smokes realistically. Reducing the powder charge significantly on a .38 Special or less is not appropriate except for people with handicaps. Reducing the powder charge on a strongly recoiling .45 to make shooting more comfortable and to make up a little for the superiority of small calibers is reasonable. It costs less than a new set of expensive guns in .38 or .32. Loading .38s with the standard Dillon setup and 15-17 gr. of powder is a snap, and you can make volume production loads easily. If you want them mild, use APP FFFg. If you want them hot, use 777 FFg.

A .38 Special with 5 grains of 777 and a lot of filler will smoke less, but eliminating smoke is certainly against the spirit of the Black Powder categories. If your rounds don't smoke, you shouldn't shoot them in BP categories. Current rules require that rounds smoke as much or more than a 1 cc./15 gr. black powder load. If you load 15 gr. volume of any of the substitutes they will smoke at least as much as 1 cc./15 gr. Goex FF, the standard used to produce "smoke standard" loads."

 

And also from...

 

If you read down into the thread .38 LC, .38 SC, BP, and smoke is discussed. Very interesting.

 

RRR

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Topic got a bit off the rails, but that's good too. Seems like about 15 gr of BP is just what the 38 Long Colt was loaded with "back in the day".

 

My Starline 38 Long Colt brass arrived today, so I felt compelled to load some up. But first I did a bit more research and discovered some interesting data, thanks to Castboolits and an older Hercules pamphlet.

 

Cartridge

Bullet

Min. OAL in

Bullseye

Red Dot

Green Dot

Unique

Herco

Wt gr. / Type

c.w. gr

Vel. Fps

c.u.p.

c.w. gr

Vel. Fps

c.u.p.

c.w. gr

Vel. Fps

c.u.p.

c.w. gr

Vel. Fps

c.u.p.

c.w. gr

Vel. Fps

c.u.p.

38 Long Colt

150 / L

1.31

2.8

785

10,100

3

795

10,450

3.3

820

10,290

4

830

10,200

4

820

10,380

 

What I found interesting is the pressure; 10,000 CUP is pretty much the max. across the board. To that end I decided to do a bit of testing with Trail Boss.

I went as high as 2.8 gr and that was just about the limit for the Fed 100 primer. Es/Sd started to climb.

 

Velocity Av

726/736

Es

46.5/19.3

Sd

17.3/8.25

Shots

5>/5<

             

 

Previous tests have indicated a WSP (Winchester Small Pistol) primer is better at powder forward than a Fed 100. So I sub'd in a WSP

 

Velocity Av

737/724

Es

25.2/18.5

Sd

10.24/7.42

Shots

5>/5<

 

Interesting results. In this combo, 2.8 gr of Trail Boss is the limit for either the Fed 100 of the WSP. If I were to continue to increase the charge, perhaps a magnum primer would be in order. Given that I'm not on a velocity quest, and 3.2 gr is at or near compressed, I went no further. 

 

As stated before, I use an old Lyman Accumeasure. The next lower step is 2.6 gr of Trail Boss, (rotor 5L). It worked well, low Es/Sd for both powder forward and rearward. 

 

Velocity Av

714/714.6

Es

38/15.4

Sd

13.3/6.7

Shots

5>/5<

 

Perhaps a WSP may work better, but at that point I'd be splitting hairs or Hares for you hunters.

 

When I bought these 125 grain bullets 2 years ago my goal was to drive them @ around 700 fps, for a P.F. < 90. I was unable to find a load that would do that in 357 brass. However I wasn't into matching primers to the load at that time. I may revisit that quest. However it's hard to argue with how clean this combination burns, and the primer pockets are clean. 5 loads on 10 new bras and they are a bit tarnished, not filthy, and the cylinder and bore are decent. A bit of fine tuning to the load and I think I'll be good to go. I think one has to expect a bit of velocity loss, firing a 38 LC in a 357 Mag, but I'm not far off the mark. I'm using 2.6 gr for 715 fps and Hodgdon data lists 2.4 for 705 fps. I don't think their max is much more than 10,000 CUP, below 38 Spl and a lot less than my Ruger hip guns can handle.

 

BTW, my '73 arrived today, happy birthday to me, LOL.

 

Gbdx7Cgm.jpg

 

BB

Hercules_1987.pdf

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13 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

I put my thinking cap on..  wouldn't a wadcutter achieve nearly the same results in a standard 38 Special case as a standard bullet in a 38 Long case. 

 

Precisely what I was thinking when I started down this rabbit hole, except the other way around. A standard bullet in a 38 LC case should be able to duplicate a 38 Spl wadcutter. I'm satisfied that it does. Half empty vs half full I suppose.

 

Only now I can tell my purest friend to go stuff it when he comments that my cartridges weren't even around during cowboy times. 38 LC was there, and did it.

 

After 7 firings the brass is pretty grungy, but the primer pockets are still nice. The brass was not wiped or cleaned at any point, nor were the primer pockets touched. 

 

iFSlHBXm.jpg

 

HZikLBEm.jpg

 

Time to clean the cases and gun. 

 

I have a good starting load. 

 

 

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The problem with 38 Special wadcutter loads is feeding through the Marlin action.  I loaded up 10 dummies with 105 g bullet seated backwards and crimped in lube groove so no lube was exposed just to replicate a wadcutter round.  I could load them into the magazine on my Marlin but they jammed when the next one followed.  Maybe a proper wadcutter with some chamfer would work.  They would chamber if aligned just right.  Maybe a round ball would work on top of a full case of black or BlackMZ. 

 

Wadcutter would work fine in revolvers.   I see some cowpokes using them.

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On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 5:25 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Colt is a copyrighted name-Hope you got their approval to use the name.

OLG

You just said Colt! I can say Colt if I want to... Colt, Colt, Colt!

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9 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

The problem with 38 Special wadcutter loads is feeding through the Marlin action.  I loaded up 10 dummies with 105 g bullet seated backwards and crimped in lube groove so no lube was exposed just to replicate a wadcutter round.  I could load them into the magazine on my Marlin but they jammed when the next one followed.  Maybe a proper wadcutter with some chamfer would work.  They would chamber if aligned just right.  Maybe a round ball would work on top of a full case of black or BlackMZ. 

 

Wadcutter would work fine in revolvers.   I see some cowpokes using them.

 

Not that I'm against the concept, but so far my hipgun ammo and rifle ammo is different. Mostly because my '66 has a much larger chamber than any of my hipguns and I prefer to use a different FL sizer for it. I've tested WC bullets in my hipguns, but never even tried to load any in my rifle, way too short. Hard to beat a RNFP for ease of slipping them into the cylinder.

 

BB

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