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WTC? Dropped loaded revolver


Dusty Devil Dale

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SHB Page 29

 

All firearms will remain unloaded except while under the direct observation of a
designated person on the firing line or in the designated loading and unloading
areas.

 

You shouldn’t leave your loaded guns unattended at the LT. The OP stated that the LTO caught the gun before it could fall to the ground, therefore there was an LTO and the loaded guns were not unattended.

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1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

My understanding is that once your guns are loaded, you must stay within arms reach of the loading table until instructed to go to the line!  We are instructed that if we need or want something from our cart to ask someone to retrieve it for us.

Blackwater, that used to be a local rule but a few years ago we changed it. Now you can lay your loaded guns on the table and go back to your cart.

 

Thanks

Randy

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16 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

 

Indeed, interesting who liked that post.

 

Though I do see what I presume Phantom is thinking.  Yes, I know that is a dangerous thing to do.  Ultimately, if I load a gun, I am responsible for it, no matter what.  Yes, there is some presumption of safety leaving them on the table, but....

 

At the same time, the person who caused the pistol to fall is also responsible.  And for the purpose of the rules of the game, should be the one to receive the penalty.

 

I hate, I H A T E leaving loaded pistols on the table, load and holster is my routine.  One of the few times I left them there, picking one up off the table and going to holster it, I caught the barrel on the table and it spun out of my hand, MDQ, too bad, so sad, sucks to be Grizz.

Grizz, I agree that leaving loaded pistols or any guns on table is a bad idea. In 7 years of SASS avg 3 matches/month I’ve maybe done it twice. But, I’ve had lots of folks say”watch my guns” while they go to their cart or wherever. 

As much as I hate “new rules” I could support a “no leaving table once guns are loaded” rule. 

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

No. By your logic if a shooter finishes his rifle string, makes his rifle safe and a posse member subsequently causes it to fall the shooter gets the penalty.

Logic had nothing to do with it.

 

This is what was told to us by those making the rules before your time.

 

If things have changed, show me.

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1 hour ago, Hoss said:

Nope 

Really?

 

Okay big boy, this is what was told to us by the powers that be many years ago.

 

But you know all:lol:

 

Would love to hear that this has changed as I leave my guns loaded to take crap back to my cart.

 

Or we can do what you would like and add stoopid restrictions to protect us from ourselves.

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1 hour ago, Hoss said:

As much as I hate “new rules” I could support a “no leaving table once guns are loaded” rule. 

How about just a courtesy custom, if it already does not exist:

NEVER TOUCH OR MOVE ANOTHER SHOOTER'S FIREARMS AT THE LOADING OR UNLOADING TABLE, UNLESS ASKED TO DO SO BY THEIR OWNER. 

Or. (after thought edit) 

You may not leave firearms unattended at the loading or unloading tables until and unless the LTO or ULTO verbally reaffirms acceptance of temporary custody. 

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3 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

How about just a courtesy custom, if it already does not exist:

NEVER TOUCH OR MOVE ANOTHER SHOOTER'S FIREARMS AT THE LOADING OR UNLOADING TABLE, UNLESS ASKED TO DO SO BY THEIR OWNER. 

Or. (after thought edit) 

You may not leave firearms unattended at the loading or unloading tables until and unless the LTO or ULTO verbally reaffirms acceptance of temporary custody. 

Yes, I certainly don’t like others moving my guns. Or worse, sliding their guns over, pushing mine with theirs. 

 

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5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Logic had nothing to do with it.

 

This is what was told to us by those making the rules before your time.

 

If things have changed, show me.

 

5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Really?

 

Okay big boy, this is what was told to us by the powers that be many years ago.

 

But you know all:lol:

 

Would love to hear that this has changed as I leave my guns loaded to take crap back to my cart.

 

Or we can do what you would like and add stoopid restrictions to protect us from ourselves.

 

Not before my time little guy. Please show us the rule that says you can’t leave your loaded firearms on the loading table and go to your cart or tell us what mystery power told you this rule so we can assess the appropriate penalty  :lol:

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Been shooting in SASS since '93; never, ever heard that you couldn't leave loaded guns on the loading table.

In fact, been told many times that to leave the LT for any reason, that loaded guns stay on the table.

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6 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Really?

 

Okay big boy, this is what was told to us by the powers that be many years ago.

 

But you know all:lol:

 

Would love to hear that this has changed as I leave my guns loaded to take crap back to my cart.

 

Or we can do what you would like and add stoopid restrictions to protect us from ourselves.

I thought I made it clear that I’m not a fan of making new rules,  But some read into a post whatever they want. That being said, obviously when a shooter of your experience and  breadth of knowledge has this wrong, then perhaps some clarification is in order. And I’ve never claimed to know it all. But I try to learn. And when I’m wrong, I’ll admit it and move forward. 

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I was taught to place the shotgun ahead of the rifle on the loading table. If you were first in line, and  If someone pushed the whole line of guns and your unloaded shotgun fell off the end, it would only be a SDQ "on you"....if the rifle was first, because it is loaded and fell off, that is a MDQ "on you"....not on the person that did the pushing.

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If I load guns and stage them on the LT and someone else pushes them off or causes them to fall off (loaded OR unloaded), I'm not taking the penalty.

If, for some reason, I was negligent in placing them on the LT, then I can see it but otherwise... you knock it off, you get the prize!

 

And maybe a nice "Gibbs" to the back of the head for knockin my gun on the ground. Watch what yer doin!

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Seems to me like the person that knocked it off would get the SDQ or it would be a no call. Capt Bill Burt made a great point what it a spotter knocks a long gun off the table or a brass picker? That can't be an SDQ for the shooter. 

 

I do know it gets really hard to try and make rules that cover every possible scenario......my hats off to the people that try. 

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3 hours ago, Wyatt said:

 

 

Not before my time little guy. Please show us the rule that says you can’t leave your loaded firearms on the loading table and go to your cart or tell us what mystery power told you this rule so we can assess the appropriate penalty  :lol:

Show me where I said you can't... Just said that it was stated years ago that the shooter that leaves their guns loaded on the loading table is responsible for them.

 

Try to comprehend...

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Maybe the easiest solution is in table design - - just a thought.  Perhaps a rim on the horizontal table with gun slots for long guns could solve all of this??? 

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6 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Betting on four pages.

 

Idunno!  Getting pretty contentious here.  Mods might just pull the plug!!:rolleyes:

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I am betting shut down this morning as soon as this thread gets read again.

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4 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

Idunno!  Getting pretty contentious here.  Mods might just pull the plug!!:rolleyes:

No need for it.  Let's just figure out the best course of action and get past it.   Overall, It's been a pretty good discussion IMHO. 

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While talking about this with my Young'un, he reminded me of his first ever MDQ.  It was on day 2 of a 2 day affair.  He was much shorter then and it was his 3rd or 4th shoot.

 

The loading table was up real high.

 

He was loading his pistol when some helpful cowboy slid his guns down the table for him. In the process, this well-meaning cowboy bumped into him, he lost his grip on the pistol he was loading, and it ended up in the dirt.

 

Couple important lessons learned that day, including that he now keeps his pistols over the table, no matter the height, when loading and unloading...

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7 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Maybe the easiest solution is in table design - - just a thought.  Perhaps a rim on the horizontal table with gun slots for long guns could solve all of this??? 

 

Good thought, but not cost effective to replace and/or modify the 1000's of tables in this sport. Much easier solution is to leave other folks guns alone.

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33 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Show me where I said you can't... Just said that it was stated years ago that the shooter that leaves their guns loaded on the loading table is responsible for them.

 

Try to comprehend...

 

Please tell us where this was stated so it can be researched 

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14 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The guy that left them there is responsible.

Sorry Pard. I disagree. The person knocking it off should receive the penalty. It just doesn't make sense that the shooter, who was not even there, should receive the penalty. He acted correctly when placing the pistols on the LT before retrieving SG shells. What else could he do? What would be the difference in you staging your rifle on a shelf before you shoot the scenario, and someone coming by and knocking it off the shelf. Both places are on the firing line.

 

Also.. just a comment about the Dropped Loaded gun on a "Stage" being a MDQ. Over the past few years I've noticed several times where the word Stage and Firing line have been interchanged. As WE ALL know, they are not the same.

 

Snakebite

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14 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Good thought, but not cost effective to replace and/or modify the 1000's of tables in this sport. Much easier solution is to leave other folks guns alone.

I agree with leaving others' guns alone.   

I think one or two able volunteers at the local club level could fix tables for very little cost and probably have some fun doing it.  I will probably do it at our club, if club leadership agrees.   It's not a big job or time commitment.   To a lot of us, working together on club projects gives a lot of enjoyment.  

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4 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I agree with leaving others' guns alone.   

I think one or two able volunteers at the local club level could fix tables for very little cost and probably have some fun doing it.  I will probably do it at our club, if club leadership agrees.   It's not a big job or time commitment.   To a lot of us, working together on club projects gives a lot of enjoyment.  

How many clubs have you run Dale?  How many work days have your organized?  How many club budgets have you been responsible for?

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40 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Maybe the easiest solution is in table design - - just a thought.  Perhaps a rim on the horizontal table with gun slots for long guns could solve all of this??? 

 

Dale - I appreciate your enthusiasm.  Judging from your SASS number you are fairly new to the sport, welcome!

 

As others have stated, there are many many tables being used in this sport.  To consider modifying all of them to 'fix' a one in a million occurrence isn't practical, nor is it necessary IMO.  

 

Please do volunteer to help out with your local clubs.  There are always many projects that need to be done, some obvious, some not so obvious.  

 

Grizz

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11 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

How many clubs have you run Dale?  How many work days have your organized?  How many club budgets have you been responsible for?

Hey, Relax.  Chill a bit and go enjoy a morning donut or something. 

 

I didn't commit anybody else to do anything.  It really doesn't take a resume of  experience to put a wooden rim on a couple dozen tables, or weld a padded metal rim on steel ones, after clearing it with the club leaders.  I'm certainly qualified to do that, and in our particular club, I'm sure I'd have lots of fun and help.   I guess I thought other clubs worked like that.  

 

Did I miss something? 

 

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Hey, Relax.  Chill a bit and go enjoy a morning donut or something. 

 

I didn't commit anybody else to do anything.  It really doesn't take a resume of  experience to put a wooden rim on a couple dozen tables, or weld a padded metal rim on steel ones, after clearing it with the club leaders.  I'm certainly qualified to do that, and in our particular club, I'm sure I'd have lots of fun and help.   I guess I thought other clubs worked like that.  

 

Did I miss something? 

 

Yes.  Perspective.  Take a few years and get some. I mean that in the nicest possible way.  You clearly like the sport and want to be a part of it which is great.  BUT, you're offering solutions and proposing changes (not just on this thread) when you lack a clear picture of how things really work.  It's a common thing for newer shooters, I went through it too.

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I prefer that others leave my guns alone. If necessary, the next shooter can usually just go around without moving someone's equipment. I don't think it is necessary to change all the loading tables, although DDD could and would certainly do it. In my 25 yrs I've never run into anyone that does more work fixing, modifying and building stage props and range equipment than DDD. He has given untold hours of work and THOUSANDS of dollars in material to our club. He has logged the tress, loaded them, hauled them, took them to his mill and milled them into 1000s of board feet of lumber, delivered them to the range, and assembled them into new structures. He spends at least 2 days a week and usually more, up at the range doing everything from building new props to distributing DG, digging trenches, building retaining walls, setting up all the target stands the week before the match and much more. We don't always agree, but nobody can fault him for his total involvement and dedication to our club.

 

Snakebite  

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8 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

 

Dale - I appreciate your enthusiasm.  Judging from your SASS number you are fairly new to the sport, welcome!

 

As others have stated, there are many many tables being used in this sport.  To consider modifying all of them to 'fix' a one in a million occurrence isn't practical, nor is it necessary IMO.  

 

Please do volunteer to help out with your local clubs.  There are always many projects that need to be done, some obvious, some not so obvious.  

 

Grizz

I agree with the practicality and rarity of this kind of occurrence.  No problem if tables don't get rebuilt nationwide.   I wasn't trying to create expectations.  But there's nothing wrong with local club members fixing stuff at their clubs.   If ten tables get fixed, that's ten more good tables.   I think that kind of attitude is why our particular club (Kings River Regulators) has such a well kept range to shoot at.   We have a lot of willing and able help in our ranks.  

 

Certainly volunteering to fix up tables is easier than fighting amongst ourselves over need for new rules.  IMHO. 

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10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Yes.  Perspective.  Take a few years and get some. I mean that in the nicest possible way. 

I would take a few years if I could, but my age ( 70) is fast catching up with me physically.   But thanks for the advice.   I do agree.  

 

I do hope ideas from new shooters are welcome in CAS.   A high SASS number doesn't mean there is no life experience, any more than a low number makes anyone a genius.  EVERYONE here has good knowledge, and much interest.  Otherwise they wouldn't log in here.   Bringing that breadth of background together here ought to make us stronger as a sport and organization.  This forum can be, and usually is, a great synthesis of thoughts.    If we could all sit around a fire and chat about this stuff, the discussion would be kinder and probably a lot more productive.   But unfortunately geography separates us.  The Wire is an attempt to overcome that separation.  I do applaud the effort put into this by everyone.  

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26 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

He spends at least 2 days a week and usually more, up at the range

Thanks for the generous comments, Doug.  

Seldom is the work at KRR lonely.   There's a great group of people, including yourself, participating with everything, which makes it fun enough to displace the other work on my schedule (to my wife's chagrin at times). 

I literally love every minute spent at the range, both working and playing cowboy.  It's truly a GREAT club to be a part of.   

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So, some are saying it's the guy who left the guns on the tables fault?

How about when someone expedites a long gun from the stage to the ULT and drops it along the way. Is it the shooters fault then?

 

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