Dusty Devil Dale Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 This is a hypothetical, but a situation which very nearly occurred at our last match. (an astute LTO caught the revolver) Shooter loads all three guns at the LT, under supervision. Discovers he has no SG shells. Lays his two loaded revolvers on the table to go to his cart. While away, somebody moves a rifle up the line and slides his revolver off the table. WTC? A dropped loaded revolver.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 The person who knocked the revolver off the table gets an MDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Quote somebody moves a rifle up the line Well, THAT SOMEBODY just bought himself a Match DQ. "Shooter" did everything correctly. Next feller on the loading table was extremely careless. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted July 29, 2019 Author Share Posted July 29, 2019 No call was made. The LTO did her job well and lunged/grabbed the gun, preventing it dropping over the front of the table. A few words were exchanged, but no penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said: No call was made. The LTO did her job well and lunged/grabbed the gun, preventing it dropping over the front of the table. A few words were exchanged, but no penalties. PWB may want to clarify, but if a TO stops a gun from falling the penalty still applies. I expect that might be true here where the LTO stopped the gun from falling. I don't particularly like that rule, but it's on the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 12 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said: No call was made. The LTO did her job well and lunged/grabbed the gun, preventing it dropping over the front of the table. A few words were exchanged, but no penalties. Good thing gun wasn't cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 "Any loaded firearm dropped during a stage will result in a Match Disqualification penalty assessment." SHB p. 17 "Stage – synonymous with “Course of Fire” from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to the last shot fired." SHB p. 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ) - Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line. SHB Pg 23 MATCH DISQUALIFICATION PENALTIES (MDQ) - Dropping a loaded firearm. SHB Pg 24 Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table. SHB Pg 44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Stump Water said: "Any loaded firearm dropped during a stage will result in a Match Disqualification penalty assessment." SHB p. 17 "Stage – synonymous with “Course of Fire” from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to the last shot fired." SHB p. 45 Interesting, Stump Water. So, a loaded firearm that is dropped prior to the beep is a "no call"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Seems like the SHB contradicts itself based on the above posts by Stump Water and Branchwater Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said: Seems like the SHB contradicts itself based on the above posts by Stump Water and Branchwater Jack. I don't think so. Just because SHB 17 says dropping a loaded gun during a stage is an MDQ that doesn't preclude a dropped loaded gun being an MDQ at some other time ie 'on the firing line'. Edited: I think it would be clearer if SHB 17 said on the firing line, which encompasses the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 Just now, Captain Bill Burt said: I don't think so. Just because SHB 17 says dropping a loaded gun during a stage is an MDQ that doesn't preclude a dropped loaded gun being an MDQ at some other time ie 'on the firing line'. I can see how both scenarios could apply, Captain. This is just another opportunity to consolidate the rules to prevent confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 The word "STAGE" is defined as the 'course of fire'. This is from the beep to the last shot. On the firing line is defined from LT to ULT. Atleast this is my understanding. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 1 minute ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: The word "STAGE" is defined as the 'course of fire'. This is from the beep to the last shot. On the firing line is defined from LT to ULT. Atleast this is my understanding. ..........Widder Stage – synonymous with “Course of Fire” from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to the last shot fired. SHB p. 45 Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table. SHB Pg 44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 11 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I don't think so. Just because SHB 17 says dropping a loaded gun during a stage is an MDQ that doesn't preclude a dropped loaded gun being an MDQ at some other time ie 'on the firing line'. Edited: I think it would be clearer if SHB 17 said on the firing line, which encompasses the stage. I totally agree, Captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 The shooter is responsible, period. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: The shooter is responsible, period. Phantom The shooter who put the guns on the table or the one who knocked them off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted July 29, 2019 Author Share Posted July 29, 2019 I'm glad I asked. There are a few different tentacles on this creature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted July 29, 2019 Author Share Posted July 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Yusta B. said: Good thing gun wasn't cocked. If the gun had left the shooter's hand, on the firing line (includes LT) in loaded and cocked condition = definite MDQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 13 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: The shooter who put the guns on the table or the one who knocked them off? or the small glass of takillya consumed back at the camper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said: or the small glass of takillya consumed back at the camper? Only after the match! Of course we know it was the guy who knocked it off, not the guy who put it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 4 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: The shooter who put the guns on the table or the one who knocked them off? The guy that left them there is responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 26 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: The guy that left them there is responsible. No. By your logic if a shooter finishes his rifle string, makes his rifle safe and a posse member subsequently causes it to fall the shooter gets the penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 So, he was supossed to unload both handguns before going to his cart to get shotgun ammo? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said: So, he was supossed to unload both handguns before going to his cart to get shotgun ammo? I think not. Worse than that, by Phantoms logic even if the shooter did as you said he would still get the SDQ for ‘dropping’ an unloaded gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 If guns were unloaded there would be no need to leave them on loading table. So....still confused on who gets MDQ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 My understanding is that once your guns are loaded, you must stay within arms reach of the loading table until instructed to go to the line! We are instructed that if we need or want something from our cart to ask someone to retrieve it for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: My understanding is that once your guns are loaded, you must stay within arms reach of the loading table until instructed to go to the line! We are instructed that if we need or want something from our cart to ask someone to retrieve it for us. My understanding as well if loaded pistols are holstered. However I've seen lots of folks put loaded pistols on the table and then go to their carts. That bringing us to the question at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: My understanding is that once your guns are loaded, you must stay within arms reach of the loading table until instructed to go to the line! We are instructed that if we need or want something from our cart to ask someone to retrieve it for us. SHB Page 29. Competitors shall not leave the designated loading area with a loaded firearm unless they are proceeding to the stage as the next competitor to begin the stage. In this case the shooter left his loaded guns on the LT under the supervision of the LTO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Rich Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 NO your guns may be placed on the loading table. You may go to your cart or even to relieve yourself if that's what you want to do. Your guns must stay at the loading table if loaded. Same at the unloading table, if you have a need to leave, your guns must stay until cleared. kR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 Check the "likes" on Garrison Joe's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: The guy that left them there is responsible. Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 So let's see Phantom, I decided I needed more shotgun shells and I "placed" my revolvers, shotgun, and rifle on the loading table in a safe manner. The shooter behind me is shooting in the same category I am, and we are at EOT, Winter Range or just a club match and I am so far "kicking his butt". So after I leave the table he "accidently" knocks one of my loaded guns off the table and I am supposed to get a MDQ? I normally don't disagree with you on calls, but this one is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 You don’t touch my wife or my loaded firearms without permission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 23 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: Check the "likes" on Garrison Joe's post. Indeed, interesting who liked that post. Though I do see what I presume Phantom is thinking. Yes, I know that is a dangerous thing to do. Ultimately, if I load a gun, I am responsible for it, no matter what. Yes, there is some presumption of safety leaving them on the table, but.... At the same time, the person who caused the pistol to fall is also responsible. And for the purpose of the rules of the game, should be the one to receive the penalty. I hate, I H A T E leaving loaded pistols on the table, load and holster is my routine. One of the few times I left them there, picking one up off the table and going to holster it, I caught the barrel on the table and it spun out of my hand, MDQ, too bad, so sad, sucks to be Grizz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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