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Creeker, SASS #43022

Guess I'm confused...

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Seems to come and go; but every so often, (like now, with two different threads running); the wire gets on a roll about leaving SASS or pining for the so called good ole days.

 

And I fully understand, interests change and apparently NOTHING is as good now as it was 20, 30 or however many years ago.

 

But if you read through the posts without the knee jerk reflex of "Please don't leave...  We will miss you...  etc.".

The posts mostly boil down to I don't want to play anymore because of how OTHERS play the game.

 

I don't get that.

How does someone else playing the game in their preferred method affect your enjoyment?

 

I see complaints about shooters being too into competition and using non stock guns.

So I assume the shooter is disappointed that they are not able/ no longer able to win; but NO, in the next breath, the shooter claims to have no interest in their placement.

 

I don't get that.

If you don't care about placements or awards - then how does another shooters competitive juices or choice of equipment affect your enjoyment?

 

I see complaints about target placements and size being too close or too easy. 

But the shooter doesn't state or mention any efforts of how they have modified their own behaviors to adjust, (shoot nothing but head shots, create one bullet splat groups, engage rifle targets with their pistols, etc.)

 

I don't get that.

If you don't care about awards or category placements AND you have the option to create your own challenges - how does anyone else performance affect your enjoyment?

 

I lied; I do get it.

Many (not all) of these posts are NOT simple announcements of tiring of the game or changing attitudes within the game; but basically threats that unless EVERYONE is shooting the game I want to play, (and only in the manner I want to play it) - I won't play anymore.

 

Games change.

Culture changes.

Participation within any interest ebbs and flows.

 

You adjust if you love it - you leave if you don't.

 

The only person responsible for your challenge, enjoyment or fun at a match is you. 

If your enjoyment is tied to someone elses action, performance or efforts then perhaps moving on is best.

 

The whole idea of the cowboy is rugged individualism; self sufficiency and the ability to adapt.

 

Take that attitude to the match; if the match doesn't provide the challenge you require - create it for yourself.

If another's equipment offends you; ignore it.

 

I hate to see anyone leave a game that I love; but if you wish to stay, you will have to find your own reasons to play and if you wish to leave...

 

Well, bye.

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Well said.

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It’s 2019. We live in the era of social media and the twitter verse. These type of people have always been around, but now they have a platform amplified to the nth degree to make it all about “me”. Humans have always acted like the universe revolves around us, but now it’s actually easy to believe it on an individual basis. 

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I just got home from a match where a shooter on my posse had established for himself additional challenges.

This shooter said that he was never going to be in contention for the Cadillac and therefore modified the game to suit himself.

 

He insisted on NOT reengaging shotgun targets - if he missed and left it up; he took it as a miss. 

His way of forcing his focus on each shot.

 

This event used an abundance of cowboy and buffalo shaped steel.

This shooter took deliberate aim and placed every shot in the head of the buffalo and hat of the cowboys.

 

Not fast; but outright speed was not his game or what brought him enjoyment.

 

And his manner of having fun did not negatively affect anyone else at that match.  I enjoyed watching his groups on steel and cheering for doubletaps that struck the exact same spot - just as much as faux coughing and marveling at seeing thru clouds created by the black powder shooters or whistling at the shooters with times in the teens.

 

My game, my fun is not compromised by shooters playing differently than myself.

As a matter of fact; it is enhanced, knowing that as I move thru this game - if my interests change, there will always be a place or manner for me to play.

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Creeker,

both of your post are well stated.

 

I hope many others read it.

 

..........Widder

 

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4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

If you don't care about placements or awards - then how does another shooters competitive juices or choice of equipment affect your enjoyment?

I agree with some of your points, but not all.  Shooters' enjoyment is a product of their own outlook, to be sure.  But it is also related to the kinds of shooting made available in match designs.   People like variety.   

So perhaps it isn't the other shooters' enjoyment that offends those considering leaving, but rather that the matches themselves are not fun to them any more, being set up to facilitate a different kind of shooting style from what they most enjoy and which they miss from the past. 

 

For example, looking at the results of the survey described here today, it looks like two to four times as many shooters (71% v. 15-30%) prefer targets set at the recommended SASS distances, over targets set closer in.  So maybe that 71% of CAS survey respondents is frustrated by having no way to enjoy their preferred shooting game,  given that the bigger matches and many smaller ones are moving toward close in targets in most, if not all stages, to produce faster stage times.  

 

I'm offering target distance here, just as an example.   The survey showed that there are other match parameters  which could completely exclude the shooting preferences of many shooters. 

 

So my question to you would be this:

Would you just say "Bye" to 71% of CAS shooters, in order to have matches designed to favor the preferences of a substantial minority? 

 

 It seems to me that providing variety isn't so difficult.  Matches can have widely varied stages to give enjoyment to as many as possible.   

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point?  It just kind of surprised me to see you post that if people don't like it, their option is to leave.  Maybe they just need to be given a more proportional voice in the direction in which SASS and CAS are headed.  I think the survey referenced above was a start in that vein, if people will read it carefully and consider the info that it provides, and not just ignore the parts which happen to disagree with their own preferences. 

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8 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

Games change.

Culture changes.

Participation within any interest ebbs and flows.

CAS and SASS has done a pretty good job of flexing with the times. There is a time and a place for every approach and different applications are needed for different results at that time. Match philosophy can change depending on what  is “needed” at the time. The sport has come full circle. Swing back can and will happen. I always see a lot of talk about variety which always seems like a good idea until variety is actually used. 

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one variation that has taken hold at several Texas clubs is the "Sharpshooter" category.  Shotgun is the same, pistols are shot at rifle targets, rifle is shot at a second set of targets set further out, 30 to 75 yards or so.  best to have similar target arrays but some clubs use what they have, if they only have enough targets for 2-3 targets per stage, they make it work.  This category gives some shooters a different type of challenge.  

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I'm thinking..  Get involved in running your local matches.  Help write stages.  Help set up targets. Help maintain and upgrade stages and props.  You may be able to schedule some special matches in off monthly match dates.  Maybe set up special side events.  Take some hotdogs and grill and host a picnic after the match. 

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DDD, you're putting way too much weight in a survey that only 192 people participated in. 

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5 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I agree with some of your points, but not all.  Shooters' enjoyment is a product of their own outlook, to be sure.  But it is also related to the kinds of shooting made available in match designs.   People like variety.   

So perhaps it isn't the other shooters' enjoyment that offends those considering leaving, but rather that the matches themselves are not fun to them any more, being set up to facilitate a different kind of shooting style from what they most enjoy and which they miss from the past. 

 

For example, looking at the results of the survey described here today, it looks like two to four times as many shooters (71% v. 15-30%) prefer targets set at the recommended SASS distances, over targets set closer in.  So maybe that 71% of CAS survey respondents is frustrated by having no way to enjoy their preferred shooting game,  given that the bigger matches and many smaller ones are moving toward close in targets in most, if not all stages, to produce faster stage times.  

 

I'm offering target distance here, just as an example.   The survey showed that there are other match parameters  which could completely exclude the shooting preferences of many shooters. 

 

So my question to you would be this:

Would you just say "Bye" to 71% of CAS shooters, in order to have matches designed to favor the preferences of a substantial minority? 

 

 It seems to me that providing variety isn't so difficult.  Matches can have widely varied stages to give enjoyment to as many as possible.   

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point?  It just kind of surprised me to see you post that if people don't like it, their option is to leave.  Maybe they just need to be given a more proportional voice in the direction in which SASS and CAS are headed.  I think the survey referenced above was a start in that vein, if people will read it carefully and consider the info that it provides, and not just ignore the parts which happen to disagree with their own preferences. 

 

DDD,

with all the analytical stuff that some of our fellow Pards possess,  surely there are those statistics that also

show that surveys are flawed.

If the person doesn't know WHO is exactly taking the survey, then how do you know that the results are

valid?

 

What if 75% of the Pards who like the targets Big and Close didn't participate in the survey?

What if a high % of Pards who like the 7+ yard, small targets participated in the survey?

How can a person actually conclude that 71% of SASS Pards actually have the same opinion in anything?

 

If the survey ask how many Baptist are in SASS, you would probably only get 1  answer.

Does this mean that SASS only has 1 Baptist member?

 

All this % stuff means nothing unless EVERYONE participates.   And the participation of WIRE Pards

on this forum is a far cry from actual members.   And I doubt that many of the Wire pards even 

participated in the survey.    Or, is their another survey showing the % of participation of ALL

SASS members?

 

Basically (and I'm making these numbers up just for an example), if 71% of those who

participated is only representative of 2 or 3 % of all members, how is that a valid survey.

 

Have a great day.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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What I find troubling is the perceived negativity and criticism of our sport. We live in a time that the buzzards are growing in number and keep circling. They are trying anyway possible to remove our second amendment rights. Division amongst us does not help, while constructive criticism is necessary and healthy, negativity does nothing. I started shooting because I love playing cowboy and shooting. Nothing has changed about that, if anything has grown stronger. I was not at EOT but I bet that Duece and Lassiter gave variety and a lot of fun. I think Blackjak at WR offered something for everyone, was a fantastic shoot. Our monthly shoots are great for young and Older alike. Those who set up these matches have to think about what will keep everyone focused, challenged, and still fun. That is a big role to fill. That kind of planning takes a lot of time. Just as a side note the planning and stage design for these is already starting to take place so is not a spur of the moment make it quick and easy type of deal. They do not deliberately try to upset people but have to find the best balance. Going back to the old way as some advocate is simply not an answer. Duece said it, have to adapt. Our common age is going up and we have to keep bringing in new shooters if we want to keep this alive and if they are younger we need to keep them interested and challenging enough for them to stay and hopefully tell their friends. I marvel at the likes of Matt Black, etc, at what they can do, and they do it everywhere. Makes me wonder what would have been like if played when I was young. I do not pine for the good ole days as looking back they were not always so good. Same with Sass, I believe our leadership understands and tries to please all which is an impossible task. I want SASS to continue into the future in a big way and that will take creativity and determination and unity within ourselves, not blind loyalty but doing what we love, playing cowboy, shooting, making great friends for life. The Sass wire is a place to voice concerns and try to work through things, it is the opinions of the republic so to speak. I guess try and think about what made you want to play Cowboy and shoot and go forward and enjoy yourself. I respect and admire all my fellow shooters and the vast array of differing skill levels and personalities. Want to see all of you stay with the sport. Just my opinion and cowboy on!

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For myself I've found that shooting different

10 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

Games change.

Culture changes.

Participation within any interest ebbs and flows.

 

You adjust if you love it - you leave if you don't.

 

Creeker, you are correct in everything you said.

 

Everything changes, so find a way to adjust with the changes.

 

What I love about SASS, is the options available to the shooter. If I find that I'm getting "bored" at matches I'll shoot a different category. Currently it's GF, but Duelist, 49er and Frontiersman are great! I have everything for CC, but haven't tried it as of yet. Don't pigeon hole yourselves, find a challenge within the rules to challenge yourself.

 

Shooting different categories, adds flexibility, new skills and builds confidence in your abilities. 

 

Match directors are never going to make everyone happy. Many times it's up to the shooter to either find away to enjoy the match or find another match or sport to shoot.  

 

Tully 

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10 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

 

And I fully understand, interests change and apparently NOTHING is as good now as it was 20, 30 or however many years ago.

 

 

The future sure ain't what it used to be either.  ;)

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45 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

with all the analytical stuff that some of our fellow Pards possess,  surely there are those statistics that also

show that surveys are flawed.

If the person doesn't know WHO is exactly taking the survey, then how do you know that the results are

valid?

Pls re-read my last sentence.  

 

Yesterday, by all reviews here, the survey was just wonderful.... Whatever?!

 

I never said that this, or any survey, is the last word.  It's just a survey, and a small sample at that.  But it shows what it shows.   It was done right here on the wire, so all here had a chance to participate, if so motivated.  

 

All that I'm saying is that everyone (particularly a strong apparent majority) perhaps ought to have a PROPORTIONATE voice in our sport's future direction.   

 

Recall the S&G song "Boxer" 

--"but a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

...... Well??? 

 

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39 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Recall the S&G song "Boxer" 

--"but a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

...... Well??? 

 

Perhaps you should heed your own advice.

 

You have been repeatedly given good information; and yet insist on cherry picking to support your positions.

 

Claiming to understand analytics and then assigning significant weight to a 192 person survey is a non starter.

 

Surveys are notorious for respondent bias; only those interested in the question respond strongly.

Nortorious for respondent self obfuscation; people answer in the "correct" response instead of how they actually feel to appear more reasonable or mainstream.

 

Surveys can be interesting and debate starters; but they are never an end all.

If you wish to truly see what shooters want; don't trust surveys, trust the shooters pocketbooks. 

The market is incredibly democratic and cash is honest.

Bordertown sells out in three days.

 

Eldorado sold 200 slots last year.

A number of other shoots known for big and close continue to sell big numbers year after year.

 

I don't know of ANY successful shoot that advertises themselves as smaller and further...

As harder and more challenging...

When you find one; let me know.

 

Before you trot out the numbers at WR and EoT - You cannot truly count participation at Winter Range or End of Trail as representative of shooter desire because those are commodities (Nationals, Worlds) that if you want to experience that product; you simply have to shoot what they offer.

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14 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

You have been repeatedly given good information; and yet insist on cherry picking to support your positions.

I guess you could call using the only survey available "cherry picking".  

Whatever. 

 

And if you want to advocate that people who disagree with you should just leave,

 

and if you want to disagree with me, that all deserve to have a voice, that's up to you.  Sorry for suggesting it. 

 

But do be careful what you ask for.  

 

As for me, I don't see why stages cannot offer variety.  Aren't we trying to give people the shooting that they say they enjoy? 

Personally, I just shoot whatever stages come at me in matches.  I'm mediocre at best, but it's all fun to me.   So if longer ranges are a hot-button to you, that's OK.  

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Well it's all moot.... If you like the match, go back. If you don't like the match, don't go back.  It's just about that simple. Sure, you can try to play your own game within the match that is presented to you, but for me it is much more enjoyable to simply attend a match that follows the same style that I enjoy. I try to find out a little about a match before attending it. 

 

Snakebite

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Just now, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I guess you could call using the only survey available "cherry picking".  

Whatever. 

 

And if you want to advocate that people who disagree with you should just leave,

 

and if you want to disagree with me that all deserve to have a voice, that's up to you. 

But be careful what you ask for.  

The only survey available?

 

There are 30 years of history in this game.

Years of seeing which products sell and which products fail...

 

And I'm not advocating anyone leave - I'm advocating that when the game is not exactly to their liking; that INSTEAD of whining - they cowboy up and adapt.

 

Or they step up and make changes.

 

I ran clubs for nearly 20 years - I started my efforts because I didn't like what my local clubs were offering. 

And I knew if I wrote the stages and I set the steel - I would never have to shoot a match that I didn't like.

 

And contrary to the current Kum by ya political correctness - I don't believe EVERYONE deserves a voice. 

Everyone's vote/ opinion is not equal.

 

When making strategic and game altering decisions; an educated and experienced voice is always preferable to a newbie without the background to support their ideas.

 

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4 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

And I'm not advocating anyone leave

Re-read the last sentence of your OP. 

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23 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

When making strategic and game altering decisions; an educated and experienced voice is always preferable to a newbie without the background to support their ideas.

So is Longcolt not an experienced voice?  How about Long Hunter? Snakebite?  

There seem to be lots of experienced opinions out there. 

I was trying to look at the objective data placed on the table yesterday, and as I recall, I only used it as an illustration, not as gospel.   I think you overreacted a tad.  

 

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1 - everyone has an opinion.  I may not agree with you nor may you agree with me.  However, it is something we are all entitled to have, an opinion.

2 - the internet has opened a Pandora's box of anonymity and folks tend to say more than they would in a face to face conversation.  For some

reason the tongue is loosened and in many times courtesy and logic take a back seat.  The has begun to be entitled cyber bullying and arguing for the sake of arguing.

3 - it is very easy to take portions of a conversation and twist what is being said in the whole into something not even close to what was originally meant.  To do this is unfair to the originator of the thought and sheds a negative light on the person doing so(how much do you love the press and what they do with comments from folks?)

 

Creeker's comments are valid and to the point.  In a nutshell he is saying - "you can exercise your right to stay or go, your choice  - If you choose to stay  great - if you choose to go, well again,  your choice".  It is an individual's responsibility to choose and do one or two of several things; Stay and adapt or stay and work to change the activity, stay and enjoy what is going on or simply leave.  Badgering and belaboring a subject or an individual because of a difference of opinion is counterproductive and plainly - rude. We all see enough of that in the day to day world around us all.

 

Ok, end of my rant and my participation in this discussion(?).

 

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7 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I agree with some of your points, but not all.  Shooters' enjoyment is a product of their own outlook, to be sure.  But it is also related to the kinds of shooting made available in match designs.   

Creeker is saying he makes his own personal challenges in whatever match design is laid out before him. 

Quote

People like variety.   

That's kind of open ended. Variety in what? Some peoples variety is shooting a set of guns on one stage and a different set on another stage. Maybe varying their attire from match to match. Some do like variety and some don't like it. For me it depends on the day. 

Quote

So perhaps it isn't the other shooters' enjoyment that offends those considering leaving, but rather that the matches themselves are not fun to them any more, being set up to facilitate a different kind of shooting style from what they most enjoy and which they miss from the past. 

May not be the match layout they don't enjoy. As you know, some people just like to argue and facilitate discord.

Quote

 

For example, looking at the results of the survey described here today, it looks like two to four times as many shooters (71% v. 15-30%) prefer targets set at the recommended SASS distances, over targets set closer in.  So maybe that 71% of CAS survey respondents is frustrated by having no way to enjoy their preferred shooting game,  given that the bigger matches and many smaller ones are moving toward close in targets in most, if not all stages, to produce faster stage times.  

I don't think it is done to produce faster stage times. That is a small byproduct. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. The popularity of some of the big and close matches speaks for itself.

Quote

 

I'm offering target distance here, just as an example.   The survey showed that there are other match parameters  which could completely exclude the shooting preferences of many shooters. 

I like Chevy trucks. If there were no Chevy trucks, you would not see me walking down the road. I'd be in a Ford or some other vehicle.

Quote

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point?  It just kind of surprised me to see you post that if people don't like it, their option is to leave.  Maybe they just need to be given a more proportional voice in the direction in which SASS and CAS are headed.  I think the survey referenced above was a start in that vein, if people will read it carefully and consider the info that it provides, and not just ignore the parts which happen to disagree with their own preferences. 

Yes, you are grossly misunderstanding his point.

And statistically speaking. At present count, Creeker has 25 likes and 6 thanks compared to your count of 0.

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I've always said give me $5,000 and tell me what you want as far as outcome of my research or survey and I'll get you there. Assuming 25,000 active member shooters, 192 response means its .00768% of the membership! It's like the Democrats  going into a Democrat saturated neighborhood. "We've determined Hillary will win by a landslide"! Just proposing that those responding had an agenda about the good ole days. The rest of us are like, 'the sports changed I'll shoot whats in front of me, get over it'.

Ike

P.S. And with my short stroked, action job, cross draw  gamer stuff!

 

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53 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

So is Longcolt not an experienced voice?  How about Long Hunter? Snakebite?  

There seem to be lots of experienced opinions out there. 

I was trying to look at the objective data placed on the table yesterday, and as I recall, I only used it as an illustration, not as gospel.   I think you overreacted a tad.  

 

You have proven to me by your statements that you know zero about market research.

 

Please put the shovel down.

 

Phantom

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It's easy to define gun mods, target distance, average number of misses per shooter, etc.  The thing that is harder to define is attitude.  Some used to refer to it as the Fun Factor.  The highly focused and very serious in the posse may not care about that.  I'm not saying every good shooter is necessarily a humorless jerk, many love a good laugh here and there during a match.  But individual clubs as well as major matches have an attitude or even what could be considered a personality.  Some clubs foster and encourage the Fun Factor and some don't.  Targets up, tables out, here's the gun placement, here's the target order, shoot.  Repeat 5 more times, let's get out of here.  No storefronts, no props, no lines, no theme to the match - a slightly tense, efficient machine of 20 people all trying to get it over with as fast as possible.  "I shot terrible but I had a GREAT time." is now too often replaced with "I shot terrible."   Maybe we should tinker with out attitudes instead of the target placement...……..

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2 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Pls re-read my last sentence.  

 

Yesterday, by all reviews here, the survey was just wonderful.... Whatever?!

 

I never said that this, or any survey, is the last word.  It's just a survey, and a small sample at that.  But it shows what it shows.   It was done right here on the wire, so all here had a chance to participate, if so motivated.  

 

All that I'm saying is that everyone (particularly a strong apparent majority) perhaps ought to have a PROPORTIONATE voice in our sport's future direction.   

 

Recall the S&G song "Boxer" 

--"but a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

...... Well??? 

 

DDD, if surveys meant anything we would be dealing with President Clinton right now. 

 

Randy

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10 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I agree with some of your points, but not all.  Shooters' enjoyment is a product of their own outlook, to be sure.  But it is also related to the kinds of shooting made available in match designs.   People like variety.   

So perhaps it isn't the other shooters' enjoyment that offends those considering leaving, but rather that the matches themselves are not fun to them any more, being set up to facilitate a different kind of shooting style from what they most enjoy and which they miss from the past. 

 

For example, looking at the results of the survey described here today, it looks like two to four times as many shooters (71% v. 15-30%) prefer targets set at the recommended SASS distances, over targets set closer in.  So maybe that 71% of CAS survey respondents is frustrated by having no way to enjoy their preferred shooting game,  given that the bigger matches and many smaller ones are moving toward close in targets in most, if not all stages, to produce faster stage times.  

 

I'm offering target distance here, just as an example.   The survey showed that there are other match parameters  which could completely exclude the shooting preferences of many shooters. 

 

So my question to you would be this:

Would you just say "Bye" to 71% of CAS shooters, in order to have matches designed to favor the preferences of a substantial minority? 

 

 It seems to me that providing variety isn't so difficult.  Matches can have widely varied stages to give enjoyment to as many as possible.   

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point?  It just kind of surprised me to see you post that if people don't like it, their option is to leave.  Maybe they just need to be given a more proportional voice in the direction in which SASS and CAS are headed.  I think the survey referenced above was a start in that vein, if people will read it carefully and consider the info that it provides, and not just ignore the parts which happen to disagree with their own preferences. 

 

Totally disagree.  Read the wording of the choices... SASS recommended or "feel the splashback".  That type of question writing automatically reinforces what you perceive to be negative.  If the question was SASS recommended vs. "Big and Close" the answers would have been different.  It was worded like a political survey to give the answers that were wanted.  How about if it was worded, "SASS recommended" vs. "More Fun"?  Answers would change, wouldn't it?  How about just shooting and stop trying to change a game you've barely gotten into.

 

Do all the respondents even know what SASS recommended distances are?  A lot of people think 7 yd. pistol targets are too close and we are "feeling the splashback".  (That's from actual Wire posts).

 

Or, as Creeker suggested, start writing stages, advertise them as "further out and more challenging"  and then tell us your results after 6 months or so and then after 1 year.  Complaints? Compliments? The trend in shooter numbers?  That's a survey worth the time.

 

I can tell you the results from one large annual match out this way that tried targets placed at further than SASS distance, or stages full of small targets at 7 yds.... a lot of unhappy shooters and a substantial number who said they wouldn't be back.

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9 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I agree with some of your points, but not all.  Shooters' enjoyment is a product of their own outlook, to be sure.  But it is also related to the kinds of shooting made available in match designs.   People like variety.   

So perhaps it isn't the other shooters' enjoyment that offends those considering leaving, but rather that the matches themselves are not fun to them any more, being set up to facilitate a different kind of shooting style from what they most enjoy and which they miss from the past. 

 

For example, looking at the results of the survey described here today, it looks like two to four times as many shooters (71% v. 15-30%) prefer targets set at the recommended SASS distances, over targets set closer in.  So maybe that 71% of CAS survey respondents is frustrated by having no way to enjoy their preferred shooting game,  given that the bigger matches and many smaller ones are moving toward close in targets in most, if not all stages, to produce faster stage times.  

 

I'm offering target distance here, just as an example.   The survey showed that there are other match parameters  which could completely exclude the shooting preferences of many shooters. 

 

So my question to you would be this:

Would you just say "Bye" to 71% of CAS shooters, in order to have matches designed to favor the preferences of a substantial minority? 

 

 It seems to me that providing variety isn't so difficult.  Matches can have widely varied stages to give enjoyment to as many as possible.   

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your point?  It just kind of surprised me to see you post that if people don't like it, their option is to leave.  Maybe they just need to be given a more proportional voice in the direction in which SASS and CAS are headed.  I think the survey referenced above was a start in that vein, if people will read it carefully and consider the info that it provides, and not just ignore the parts which happen to disagree with their own preferences. 

I think you are missing Creekers point or at least one of them. Create your own shooting style. I get to matches all the time where I may get bored or want to do something different. Almost always enough latitude is allowed to change things up a bit. In warmup stages I will shoot "mutt" using a mix of BP and smokiless rounds. If you have to place 2 shots on every target I may put one on every odd target and double tap the evens then back to the odds. Unless the MD is completely controlling and specifies how every stage must be shot I can find a dozen different ways to shoot it. I have had TO's tell the spotters to be quiet, that I'm just having fun.

Anyone who has shot with me knows to expect something different. I shoot a lot of matches, since April I have shot a multi-day match almost every weekend. Also a survey done on the wire is not really representative of SASS shooters as a whole, it just represents the ones that participate on the wire, the majority do not. The ones who participated in the survey are also a small portion of the wire participants.

kR

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WOW, you guys this is POO.   My little girl and I travel to matches far and wide all summer for the last 10 years.  While that doesn't make us experts, whatever that is, we see a lot of happy and unhappy shooters.  What we have found( a 2/25000 survey) and therefore not very meaningful.   Is that Lou Graham hit the nail on the head, target distance or placement matter but not as much as some would think.  It's the atmosphere the match creates, matches are fun when the workers care about their match, know the rules and deliver a uniform product year after year.   Creekers matches were fun and successful because he cared and it showed.  Border Town would be successful regardless of the target placement because the preparation shows the professionalism of those leading the charge. Winter Range, well it just drips those qualities.  If you don't like your local matches then get off your delicate fannies and offer some help or if your opinion really matters try lots of help.  Until then " you set them up, take them down, and score the match and I'm a satisfied customer" 

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53 minutes ago, McCandless said:

Totally disagree.  Read the wording of the choices... SASS recommended or "feel the splashback".  That type of question writing automatically reinforces what you perceive to be negative.  If the question was SASS recommended vs. "Big and Close" the answers would have been different.  It was worded like a political survey to give the answers that were wanted.  How about if it was worded, "SASS recommended" vs. "More Fun"?  Answers would change wouldn't it?  How about just shooting and stop trying to change a game you've barely gotten into.

Valid point about the survey wording.  Question wording is always difficult to make impartial.  I didn't get the sense that the "Bootstraps" survey was intentionally biased. 

 

And again, I only cited its numbers as an illustration, trying to make two points that: 1)  people can't just individually make a match their own preferred contest, if their preferred target types aren't anywhere in the match, and 2) that folks seem to like variety.  Obviously both of those points  were dead wrong in many eyes here.   You've apparently convinced the original survey respondents to change their minds or at least remain silent, judging from their absence here.  So Fair Enough.  

 

If a market analysis is a better tool, then I'm all for it.  But a market analysis may hold some surprises too.  It might not show a decisive preference for any particular style of match, and there are confusing non-shooting factors to consider there too, like weather, location, timing, promotional effort, and the draw of belt buckles associated with National and World  Championship Matches. 

But I think there actually is a reasonably good response to a wide range of match designs, from Bordertown and the CA State Match, to Fort Miller and others like it.  That's because down deep, all of us just like to shoot.  If we can get there, we go.  I hope that is the case. 

 

The other point I was trying to make is that there are people out there (apparently more than just a couple of them, based on the survey example) who prefer the old shooting match styles, with emphasis on cowboy lifestyles, props, etc., and not focused so exclusively on enablement of speed.  Those folks (e. g., OP by Longcolt and follow ups by Long Hunter and Snakebite) are examples of folks who've been brave enough to risk the personal attacks here to comment that they miss that historical flavor in the present matches-- and they have considered quitting.   

 

 Some of those folks are long-in-tooth in CAS, and have earned their voice here, at least I would hope so.   They're delivering a message that some here obviously prefer to discredit.   I just didn't feel that showing them the door option, rather than considering their points of view, was exactly the Cowboy Way.  

 

Whatever you folks want is fine with me.  I'll keep on shooting every time I get a chance.  I hope everyone else does too, including those mentioned above.   I hope they stay and remain outspoken.   

 

Like it or not, they aren't alone in their views.  The (originally described as "great", but now, apparently terribly flawed) Bootstrap Survey somehow empiracly found at least 130 others like them out of about 200 total survey respondents.   If  folks here and at SASS want to pick apart the survey methodology, rather than consider those 130 peoples' input,  they certainly are free to do so.

Go for it! 

 

  

 

 

 

 

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WOW,

Creeker's got 34 'Likes' and 10 'Thanks' outa 2 post.

 

I don't think I ever got that many in a week ..... maybe even a month.....  :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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41 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

WOW,

Creeker's got 34 'Likes' and 10 'Thanks' outa 2 post.

 

I don't think I ever got that many in a week ..... maybe even a month.....  :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

Well, I got 2 likes and 1 thanks. On ballance,  considering my few words,  I did good. :rolleyes:

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