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Was there ever a time in SASS


Scrub Oak Willie 53737

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I've never shot a Match, but I have shot some stages with no SG makeups allowed.

 

The problem with the no-makeup situation is that there were some KD's that refuse to fall

on occasion even with a good hit of pellets.

One moment it might fall, the next shooter might not get so lucky because of some lead lodged

in its mechanism caused by the previous shooter.

 

It wouldn't bother me to shoot a match with NO MAKEUPS until one failed to fall..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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I've shot at a club with a no makeup match.   It wasn't bad but a little different.  

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We've had stages written where it was allowed to make up any pistol or rifle misses with extra shotgun rounds.  Pretty funny when the first guy took that advantage and blasted the closest handgun target with a shotgun.  Needed some retraining. <_<

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We typically don't make up pistol or rifle targets, so shotgun makeups are no big deal to me.

Makeups do allow me to shoot more....

 

Duffield

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What kind of shot gun make up do you mean?

we typically can make up a missed pistol/rifle with the shot gun if it is written in the stage. For example on a Texas Star or knock down. 

Shot gun knockdowns, shoot til down. I never payed much attention to missing a hanging shot gun target. 

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I think it would be okay, it could ruin some possible “clean” shoots though!

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Yep. years ago there was no make up and at one point in time you hit the SG target and you had to see  red or orange as it fell over & sprung back up if you did not see the color it was a miss. (The targets had a spring  when you hit it,  It sprung back up & you had to see color.)

 

That was quite a few years back. Spotters had to pay close attention as to if they did or did not see color. If seen color it was a hit . If no color seen it was a miss..

 

Good Old Days Yeeeeeeh, Haaaaaaaw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and Mercy, Mercy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Today's Way Is better.

 

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We had big, heavy home built knockdowns that were awful. They wouldn't stay adjusted so may not want to reset or get too hard to knock down.  We replaced them with reaction targets. Any shot that looked close is a hit.

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In Wild Bunch Action Shooting the stage conventions do NOT allow the shooter to re-engage shotgun targets.  That, plus the fact that we load the magazine of the shotgun at the loading table, led to the observation that the shotgun is treated like a rifle in Wild Bunch.

 

I can’t recall shooting a cowboy action stage in which the “Comstock Rule” did not apply.

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My raw times would be great if we didn't allow shotgun makes ups, but my stages times would be terrible with all the miss penalties.   :)

 

Need proof?  Just look at any Wild Bunch match I have shot. :D

 

Totes

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i'm not fast at loading or shucking a sxs so i'm further ahead to just leave it standing if it dont fall with the first shot. It doesnt bother me either way. I always keep going until down or out of ammo. 

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Many Clubs use the same type hanging targets as they do Rifle and Pistol.  Hit or miss.  No Make up.  I'm fine with it.  If it don't wiggle, you missed.  Most places with reactive targets require you shoot until the target goes down, or you run out of ammunition.  I'm fine with that too.  One BIG benefit to hanging shotgun targets is no time lost to "resetting."

 

Shot answer.  Sure I'd shoot matches with NO shotgun make-up.  Why not??

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I have to wonder how it is a clean match when say 24 rounds is needed to hit every target and you use 25 rounds.  When I started SASS the way matches were done is sure different than today.  One club I shot with let me shoot a single LaMatt loaded with 9 rounds of .44 and an about .70 cal ball in the shotgun for the 10th round. They could sure count the number of rounds shot, makes you wonder what our schools teach today.  I sometimes think that SASS isn't as much fun today.  Way to many rules as to many shooters started gaming the shoots.  With that BS lets go have fun and enjoy what we have shooting 30 rounds in a 24 round stage saying we had a clean match.

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There definitely was a time.  I've been told it's the Carolina RoughRiders you have to thank for the shotgun makeup.  It was before my time, so I wasn't around for the reasoning, but boy howdy did it catch on quick.

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It’s dealer’s choice.  If the stage directions say shoot em till they fall, I do.  If it says no make ups, I do that.  Not a big deal either way.  One thing no make ups has going for it is that it gets shooters though a stage faster, if that is an issue for a match. 

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I started shooting cowboy action in 1992 and our shotgun targets were stationary.   Just like the rifle pistol targets you listened and watched for ding.   We called it the golden BB and it got to be we just assumed when the shotgun went off it was a hit.   Then it got to be where people called hits for their friends and miss for people they wanted to beat.    Very subjective,  we came up with the knockdown concept.    We then found it took to long the reset the targets and you had do shut down the entire range to reset.   We then designed targets we could reset more easily.  The shotgun targets were still hit or miss no makeup.  Several years later we heard of other clubs doing the shotgun Comstock and did the shoot till they falls.   Bullett 19707

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10 hours ago, MizPete said:

There definitely was a time.  I've been told it's the Carolina RoughRiders you have to thank for the shotgun makeup.  

 

And the ten second miss.  :ph34r:

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12 hours ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

It’s dealer’s choice.  If the stage directions say shoot em till they fall, I do.  If it says no make ups, I do that.  Not a big deal either way.  One thing no make ups has going for it is that it gets shooters though a stage faster, if that is an issue for a match. 

negative, ghostrider, doesn't need to be in the stage directions. Shotgun until down is a SASS convention.

 

SHB Pg 14

Quote

- All shotgun knockdown targets may be reengaged until down.
- All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count.
o Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss.
o EXCEPTION: For Buckaroo/Buckarette shooters knockdown targets do not have to go down to count.

 

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33 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

negative, ghostrider, doesn't need to be in the stage directions. Shotgun until down is a SASS convention.

 

SHB Pg 14

 

A convention is not a rule and I have shot stages that have no shotgun make ups specified.  How the stage is shot is defined in the stage directions.  My point was simply that I do whatever the stage calls for. I don’t see a problem either way.  

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4 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

A convention is not a rule and I have shot stages that have no shotgun make ups specified.  How the stage is shot is defined in the stage directions.  My point was simply that I do whatever the stage calls for. I don’t see a problem either way.  

Negative, Ghostrider.  SASS Conventinos are rules...Stage Conventions may be overriden in the stage descriptions. Safety Conventions cannot.

 

SHB pg 14

Quote

“Conventions” refer to standard range behaviors and rules that every shooter is expected to know and follow at all times. ALL SASS Safety conventions are not negotiable and shall never be overruled by match design or shooting course descriptions. Stage Conventions are standard default rules unless otherwise directed by stage design/description (e.g., knockdown targets must go down to count).

 

STAGE CONVENTIONS
The following stage conventions (stage defaults) should be followed in all SASS matches, unless otherwise directed in the stage descriptions.

 

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2 hours ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

A convention is not a rule and I have shot stages that have no shotgun make ups specified.  How the stage is shot is defined in the stage directions.  My point was simply that I do whatever the stage calls for. I don’t see a problem either way.  

Hi Doc,

 

I think Jack is just pointing out that stages conventions exist so that if the stage instructions don't cover a topic we have a default we go with.  In this case if the stage instructions don't mention whether the shotgun targets can be made up, the default is that they can.  The same for starting position, if the stage instructions don't mention what it is, we go with SASS default, standing upright hands at sides not touching guns or ammo. 

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2 hours ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

A convention is not a rule and I have shot stages that have no shotgun make ups specified.  How the stage is shot is defined in the stage directions.  My point was simply that I do whatever the stage calls for. I don’t see a problem either way.  

They key is, what is called for in the stage instructions. Stage instructions direct you for that specific stage and can override conventions.

Conventions are just there so stage writers don't have to keep writing the same instructions over and over.

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On 7/22/2019 at 8:48 AM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I've never shot a Match, but I have shot some stages with no SG makeups allowed.

 

The problem with the no-makeup situation is that there were some KD's that refuse to fall

on occasion even with a good hit of pellets.

One moment it might fall, the next shooter might not get so lucky because of some lead lodged

in its mechanism caused by the previous shooter.

 

It wouldn't bother me to shoot a match with NO MAKEUPS until one failed to fall..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

Widder, I shot a Match with my shotgun once, Blew the head rite off that sucker too..... ;)

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11 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Negative, Ghostrider.  SASS Conventinos are rules...Stage Conventions may be overriden in the stage descriptions. Safety Conventions cannot.

 

SHB pg 14

 

This topic is pretty clearly about stage conventions, which the section of the rule book you quote clearly states can be overridden by the stage descriptions.

 I don’t think whether you have to knock down all the shotgun targets or not on a stage or for a whole match has much to do with safety rules, but hey these days who knows.  

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On 7/22/2019 at 8:44 AM, Scrub Oak Willie 53737 said:

Sorry wanted to no if SASS ever had a no shotgun make up rule, and how you would feel shooting and match with no shotgun makeups.

Short answer:  Yes... hope to never see those days again.

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6 hours ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

This topic is pretty clearly about stage conventions, which the section of the rule book you quote clearly states can be overridden by the stage descriptions.

 I don’t think whether you have to knock down all the shotgun targets or not on a stage or for a whole match has much to do with safety rules, but hey these days who knows.  

As I have already stated, stage conventions can be overridden by stage instructions. However, if the stage conventions are not specifically overridden by stage instructions, the SASS rule already states that all shotgun knockdown targets may be reengaged until down. There is no need to write the stage directions to say shoot em till they fall because that is already the rule.

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