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Slow Mo Dern

SDQ question and proper procedure?

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Posted (edited)

 

SDQ question and procedure…

 

Hello,

    

     I would like to know the standard operating procedure after a shooter drops his gun.  Please tell me how this action would be handled if it happened at an actual SASS match. 

    

     A small group of friends were shooting a small informal match for fun over the weekend and a shooter dropped his gun.   The shooting order was pistols, rifle, and shotgun.

    

     The shooter started the stage with 5 rounds from the first pistol, holstered the gun, drew the second pistol, shot 5 rounds and missed the holster and the empty gun fell to the ground. 

    

     The shooter continued to shoot 10 rounds with the rifle, re-staged the rifle and continued to the shotgun for 4 rounds.  He wanted to finish the stage.

    

     The pistol was picked up by the “match director/brass picker” and taken to the unloading table and cleared while the shooter was shooting the rest of the stage. 

    

     The shooter received a SDQ. 

    

     At an official SASS match, would the shooter be stopped after the gun was dropped, ending the stage or does he keep shooting? 

    

     Is it Ok for the shooter to finish the stage, verify the gun is empty, and award the proper SDQ penalty?

    

     Thank you in advance for your explanation, advice, and opinions.

    

     Sincerely,

     Slow Mo Dern

Edited by Slow Mo Dern

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The gun is dropped - the stage is over.

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At official matches, I've seen the TO stop the shooter immediately - every time.  Eliminates additional stuff happening if the shooter continues - it's all a downside from there, there is no benefit to continuing.

 

At a "practice/fun" match, probably let the shooter have a mulligan and start again.   If he's your friend.  :lol:

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Slow Mo Dern said:

 

SDQ question and procedure…

 

Hello,

    

     Is it Ok for the shooter to finish the stage, verify the gun is empty, and award the proper SDQ penalty?

    

     Thank you in advance for your explanation, advice, and opinions.

    

     Sincerely,

     Slow Mo Dern

 

As Chief Rick stated..... shooter is 'fini waaloo'.   Stage is over.

As to verifying if the gun is empty or not will only determine if the penalty is a SDQ or MDQ.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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Doesn't have to be stopped ... Truly depends on what is the safest action.

 

Sometimes the safest action is to let the shooter continue.

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Say, you are TO for Matt Black or anyone that fast and he wasn't aware he'd missed his holster. Not all TOs could keep up to safely stop him.

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13 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Doesn't have to be stopped ... Truly depends on what is the safest action.

 

Sometimes the safest action is to let the shooter continue.

+1000

If the shooter is aware they dropped a gun; they will likely stop themselves.

If the shooter has already proceeded to the next gun AND there is no pressing safety reason to stop them (an empty gun lying untouched in the dirt is not a pressing reason) - it is often easier and safer to allow them to complete the shooting string than to try to stop them mid string.

After stopping the shooter; direct them to unloading -  when the stage is cleared and controlled appropriately to do so; another posse member may safely retrieve the dropped firearm and take it to the unloading table for exam and clearing.

Record the penalty; calm and reassure the shooter if needed, (they are not a pariah; they have simply joined a large fraternity within the SASS family).

 

Next shooter.

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37 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Say, you are TO for Matt Black or anyone that fast and he wasn't aware he'd missed his holster. Not all TOs could keep up to safely stop him.

 

There’s not anyone else that fast!

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IMO, the proper action is to stop the shooter... yep, someone really fast may be able to get a shot or two, maybe several before that happens... the dropped gun may be a trip hazard if the stage calls for movement... as in the case for a dropped loaded gun, the TO should retrieve the dropped gun.  My general reaction as the TO is to have the shooter then clear the gun in hand, while I retrieve the dropped gun, ensure its cleared and either place on a safe table or surface, holster it for the shooter, and have them proceed to the unloading table.  The RO3 manual needs to be applied.  Not all circumstances are the same.

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o A shooter should not be allowed to pick up a dropped firearm. The CRO/TO should recover the firearm, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the appropriate penalty.  SHB Vers 23.2 pg 17

 

Stop the shooter as soon as it is safe to do so.  Which depends a lot on the shooter and the T.O.

 

 

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Being careful of muzzle direction when retrieving the dropped gun is also important. Don’t sweep anyone. We had a shooter a while back lose control of his hammered double after the first shot. Hit the ground pointing back at the posse with a live round under a cocked hammer. MDQ obviously, but the TO started to pick it up without first clearing everyone out.

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If he knows it fell and stops himself and is not cocking or loading another gun, yes, shut him/her down. If the shooter has another cocked or loaded gun in his hands just let them finish the stage and inform him of the penalty. The confusion of trying to stop a shooter when their in race mode just adds fuel to the fire. 

 

If they drop a loaded gun they get a MDQ, what's the penalty for picking up your own dropped gun? You've already been MDQ'd. 

 

I had an old toy pistol that looked real if you squinted real hard. Many years ago I threw it out next to a shooter after he shot the best stage of his life and he'd thought he dropped a gun. He called me a few choice words after he figured it out. 

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Depends 

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Stop the shooter as soon as it is safe to do so.

 

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Quote

If a shooter commits an SDQ violation, the CRO/TO should stop the shooter as soon as it is safe to do so.  (In cases where there is doubt as to whether or not the violation occurred, or it is deemed unsafe at that point in time to stop the shooter, it is reasonable to allow the shooter to finish the stage.)

EoT 2019 TG MEETING Minutes

 

Quote

A shooter should not be allowed to pick up a dropped firearm. The CRO/TO should recover the firearm, examine it, clear it (if necessary), return it to the shooter, and assess the appropriate penalty. 

SHB Vers 23.2 pg 17

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Posted (edited)

Our rules require a shooter to be able to safely stop when a Cease Fire command is issued. 

 

Some posters have opined that we may have shooters who would be "unsafe to stop."  If so, we should prevent them from shooting until they are able to respond to a "Cease Fire" command safely, because they would be in violation of our safety rules if they could not.

 

I would say from my experience that our fastest shooters are not "unsafe to stop"

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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1 minute ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Our rules require a shooter to be able to safely stop when a Cease Fire command is issued. 

 

Some posters have opined that we may have shooters who would be "unsafe to stop."  If so, we should prevent them from shooting until they are able to respond to a "Cease Fire" command safely, because they would be in violation of our safety rules if they could not.

 

I would say from my experience that our fastest shooters are not "unsafe to stop"

 

Good luck, GJ

Totally misrepresenting what is being said.

 

Sometimes not stopping a shooter is safER than stopping the shooter.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Totally misrepresenting what is being said.

 

Sometimes not stopping a shooter is safER than stopping the shooter.

Once again +1000

I'm a pretty decent timer operator.

IF the situation dictates - I will pretty much guarantee my ability to stop any CAS shooter.

Verbally or by physical intervention if the situation were to warrant it.

 

An errant school child running into the course of fire...

The shooters hair bursting into flames...

Etc. and so on.

 

These instances require an immediate cease fire and TO response.

But IF it is safER to allow the shooter to continue (to complete a movement, finish the shooting string, etc.) than to interfere - then that is the correct path.

 

A startled, confused or agitated shooter with a cocked fiream and live ammo is INFINITELY more hazardous than an empty unhandled firearm lying in the dirt.

 

You handed me the timer because you trust my abilities/ judgement/ decision making and reactions to safely guide the shooter thru the stage (and by extension, keeping the safety of everyone at the match in mind).

If you trust me; allow me to do my job as I see best for the individual and specific circumstances as they are presented to me.

 

If my immediate decision making and judgement is not to be trusted (with that shooters safety, safety of the posse, etc); you should have never handed me the timer.

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Totally misrepresenting what is being said.

 

Sometimes not stopping a shooter is safER than stopping the shooter.

 

22 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Once again +1000

I'm a pretty decent timer operator.

IF the situation dictates - I will pretty much guarantee my ability to stop any CAS shooter.

Verbally or by physical intervention if the situation were to warrant it.

 

An errant school child running into the course of fire...

The shooters hair bursting into flames...

Etc. and so on.

 

These instances require an immediate cease fire and TO response.

But IF it is safER to allow the shooter to continue (to complete a movement, finish the shooting string, etc.) than to interfere - then that is the correct path.

 

A startled, confused or agitated shooter with a cocked fiream and live ammo is INFINITELY more hazardous than an empty unhandled firearm lying in the dirt.

 

You handed me the timer because you trust my abilities/ judgement/ decision making and reactions to safely guide the shooter thru the stage (and by extension, keeping the safety of everyone at the match in mind).

If you trust me; allow me to do my job as I see best for the individual and specific circumstances as they are presented to me.

 

If my immediate decision making and judgement is not to be trusted (with that shooters safety, safety of the posse, etc); you should have never handed me the timer.

 

I agree, once a shooter is on the line, many times the safest way to unload guns is to fire them safely downrange.

 

Randy

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every time ive witnessed this - granted only twice - it was immediate stop and trip to the unloading table with the RO handling the dropped firearm , 

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Posted (edited)

I dropped my first pistol at our state match last weekend. I had already begun my rifle string when the pistol left leather. I was allowed to continue the stage, as the pistol didn’t cause any safety concerns. Also SDQ’s were addressed during the safety meeting. The match director asked times be recorded but the SDQ be clear. 

 

I would assume this this clears up any situation that would arise if the SDQ would be overturned. 

Edited by P.R. Undertaker
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Posted (edited)

Stop the shooter as soon as it is safe to do so.

 

Judgement call by the TO.

 

I've seen it both ways, and stopping an inexperienced shooter can be more problematic than an experienced one.  Saw a hard of hearing fairly new shooter turn to the TO with cocked pistol in hand saying 'what?' when told to stop, TO kept the pistol from sweeping him.  Shooter was so rattled when told to fire into the berm and set the gun down, he fired and cocked again.

 

I would caution the 'peanut gallery' from hollering out as long as it's clear the TO is aware of the situation.  Multiple people yelling out at a rattled shooter will likely make the situation worse, not better.

 

Only had it happen once when I was running the clock, lady shooter missed the holster with first pistol and had second one out and cocked before it hit the ground.  I put my non timer hand out to the side to let the posse know I knew it had happened and let the lady finish the second pistol before stopping her.

Edited by Grizzly Dave
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10 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

I would caution the 'peanut gallery' from hollering out as long as it's clear the TO is aware of the situation.  Multiple people yelling out at a rattled shooter will likely make the situation worse, not better.

 

 

This is true in a LOT of situations.  People's desire to be helpful can sometimes cause more problems than it solves.

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Posted (edited)

Hello, the Wire,

 

     I thank you all for your advice, comments, references, and input.

 

     I always ask you folks on the SASS Wire about events at matches that I can’t find in any of the Shooter’s Handbooks and I have always received a good answer or the right answer along with intelligent input.

 

     Thank you again, you guys are the best!

 

     Slow Mo Dern

Edited by Slow Mo Dern
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Slow Mo Dern said:

 

:rolleyes:

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973

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SMD,

You said a mouthful... "as soon as it is safe to do so".

This can vary greatly and depends on several factors.

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