Tennessee Snuffy Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Need Some Help I have been working up some smokeless loads for my Shiloh Sharps 45-70, 30” barrel with 1-18 twist and have not been successful in getting 3 “groups at 200 yards. I have tried IMR 4198 and Varget powder with Federal rifle primers and bullet weights from 385, 405, 450, 500 and 535 grains. I have varied the powder charges for these bullets and have had mixed and very inconsistent results. I have also experimented with Accurate 5744 powder (29 to 33 grains) with 405 and 385 grain bullets. The velocity of these were 1550 to 1700 fps and could not keep them on the paper. The barrel is not leaded up – used Brownells lead removal system. I have been using a lead sled for gun support I have tried 0.458 and 0.459 bullet diameters and the 0.458” seem to be consistent. So here are my questions: 1. What velocity should I been attempting to obtain? 2. What powder/bullet weight combination have you had success with? 3. Am I asking too much from smokeless powder and should I just switch to black powder? 4. If I go to black powder what powder/bullet weight combination have you had success with? Thanks for your help Tennessee Snuffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Snuffy, I’m a new Sharps shooter as well. I’ve found a pretty good load for my Shiloh Sharps 535 grn bullet 25 grns 5744 1260 FPS 200 yd target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 What alloy are these bullets? Try 3031 powder. Why won't you give real BP a go? That's what they are made for....... Ditch that lead-sled I use Goex Old E 2f and a Creedmoor or Postel bullet of 30:1 alloy with DGL lube. PLEASE, buy this book to get you started. https://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Buffalo-Rifles-Old-West/dp/B000H7NBAM OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Have you slugged the barrel? Where are you getting your bullets? Any lube residue on the muzzle? What is your chronograph telling you? What sights do you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 I doubt I (the rifle maybe but not me) could shoot 3' at 200 but here is what I have come up with so far. The rifle is a Pedersoli Boss Sharps 34", 1:18 twist barrel, Lee Shaver mid range soule. 535gr proj ADI 2205 (similar to 5744)- 22gr- 1140fps. I am looking for some Unique to try but it isnt easy to come by down here. The range was 200m, 10 rounds. The spread is about 6" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, Major Crimes said: I doubt I (the rifle maybe but not me) could shoot 3' at 200 but here is what I have come up with so far. The rifle is a Pedersoli Boss Sharps 34", 1:18 twist barrel, Lee Shaver mid range soule. 535gr proj ADI 2205 (similar to 5744)- 22gr- 1140fps. I am looking for some Unique to try but it isnt easy to come by down here. The range was 200m, 10 rounds. The spread is about 6" I’ve used lots of Unique in 45-70, but nothing heavier than a 405 grn bullet. Mostly 330 grn bullet, 14.2 Unique in a Marlin 1895. And I use it in my 76 Win 45-60 with a 305 grn Bullet, 12 grn Unique. It’s a good load. However, I have heard that Unique builds too much pressure with a 535 grn Bullet. There is no load data that I can find for Unique with that heavy a bullet. Wish I could, I have plenty of Unique and it’s quite a bit cheaper than 5744! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Snuffy Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 Thanks for all the input and questions. I am going to try and answer them here: Have not slugged the barrel but 0.458 group better than 0.459 Chronograph indicates consistent velocity (+/-75 fps) on most loads Bullets have come from Acme and Missouri Bullets. Very little to almost no lube at end of barrel soule rear and globe front with level I got some 25 gr of 5744 behind 530 Lyman Posters and 24 to 26 grains of 5744 behind 405 Acme and Missouri bullets for tomorrow experiment. I will let you know TS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 +/- 75 fps is for how many shots? That is quite a bit of variance. You want to see 1/2 that for 10 rnd avg. What was the ave fps for 10 shots? Need load details-have you annealed the case necks? What brand of brass? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Snuffy Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 In response to OLG questions 75 fps variance is for 7 rounds I have been from the 2 grains below min to max published data for the grains of powder (4198, Varget and 5744) Mixed brass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 20 minutes ago, Tennessee Snuffy said: Chronograph indicates consistent velocity (+/-75 fps) on most loads If your ES extreme spread is +/- 75 FPS over a 5 shot string with the same powder, powder charge, and weight of bullet; THIS is your problem. Are you individually weighing each charge or using a powder measure? Have you verified the accuracy AND repeatably of your scale / powder measure.? Number 10 cases 1-10. Now Throw a charge in each case and record the weight of each case. Then starting with the first case reweigh each one and record the weights. repeat a third time, weighing each case in order. Each cases weight should not vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 12 minutes ago, Tennessee Snuffy said: Chronograph indicates consistent velocity (+/-75 fps) on most loads IMO, your loads are not close to being consistent until your ES is below 25fps... preferably a SD in the single digits. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the larger diameter bullet is too hard for the rifling and velocity you're shooting 'em at. A softer & slower bullet should improve your SD & accuracy in one fell swoop. Segregate your brass by maker (even by stamp within brands), and size, trim and ream out (conform), primer pockets. Then weigh your empty brass, segregate them by weight... If you want excellent accuracy, then you have to be willing to do the work to ensure that your ammo is as consistent as the most anally-retentive bench-rester would make his. Same goes for segregating your bullet... If there are variances in bullets weight by as little a couple of grains, you're going to see a degradation of accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Snuffy Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 In reply to Sedalia Dave questions yes I individual weight each powdeercharge yes the balance beam scale has been calibrated with 10 grains weights before use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 24 minutes ago, Tennessee Snuffy said: In reply to Sedalia Dave questions yes I individual weight each powdeercharge yes the balance beam scale has been calibrated with 10 grains weights before use But is it repeatable? Do the 10 charge test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 I’ve had good accuracy in my Browning 1886 with 12 grains of Red Dot behind a 300 grain Missouri Bullet, sized .458. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 that is the first pistol powder load i have ever seen for a rifle cartridge 4570 , not that i object at all but i question only because i really want one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Here ya go Watab Kid, here’s some more: http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 13 hours ago, Tennessee Snuffy said: In reply to Sedalia Dave questions yes I individual weight each powdeercharge yes the balance beam scale has been calibrated with 10 grains weights before use Do you have known ck weights to confirm the scale reads 'rite'? Your FPS variance, is telling me your scale reading is not repeating. 75 fps is way to much. Again I ask-What was the average FPS reading? Can you try another scale? Like I said-Try some 3031 powder. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 I'm a big fan of 3031. Very versatile for most of my rifle loads. You will see a big difference in SD using mixed brass. Try just one maker for your testing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Michigan Slim said: You will see a big difference in SD using mixed brass. THIS X 10 OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Quote ....have not been successful in getting 3 “groups at 200 yards. Snuffy, have you considered that your lack of 2" MOA groups is not the reloads but tricking out the rifle and how you shoot is the issue? * Start with the best reload you have used so far and use it after you have done this to your rifle 1. Remove the forearm and shave the wood the width of a playing card from the back of the forearm. This will eliminate the forearm binding against the action on ignition 2. With the forearm off, point the muzzle down holding the stock and with a brass hammer - start tapping the barrel towards the muzzle. You will hear the sound of a 'ting' as you progress down the barrel. When you have a "BONG" - mark the spot. This is harmonic vibration up and down equalization point of your barrel. Paint a white line on the top off the barrel. This is where you place the barrel on the shooting sticks or bench rest when shooting 3. Place a thin rubber "O" ring under the forearm screw and attach the forearm back on the barrel. You now have a free floating barrel with having to do a glass bedding job When you are shooting the rifle rifle - Do Not Wrap our thumb around the stock wrist, Place your thumb only up the side of the stock wrist to prevent torquing the barrel when you shoot 2" MOA groups are easily obtained shooting this distance with proven 500 & 535 grain bullets with vernier sights - and compensating for the wind with 70grs BP or standard smokeless powder charges by bullet weight Gut Zeil with Practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee Snuffy Posted July 20, 2019 Author Share Posted July 20, 2019 Thanks for all the help Here are to answers to various questions: My calibrations weighs are certified known weights I have been shooting mixed headstamp brass I have some new starling brass that I will used on my next rounds of shots I will check my scales with another before reloading any more bullets Today I tired some 540 & 530 grain bullets with 25 and 24 grains of 5744. Velocities were in the 1250 range for 25 grains and 1200 for the 24 grain of 5744. It seemed that at this velocities the 530 bullets were tumbling. Going to repeat again with 20 and 22 grains of 5744 behind these bullets. Also tried some 405 acme and Missouri bullets behind 25 and 27 grains of 5744. Velocities were 1380 for the 25 grain and 1475 for the 27 grains of 5744. These were way too hot. It took a few shots to get the elevation correct. Will try these again with 18 and 20 grains of 5744 Again thanks for all the help Tennessee Snuffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Anneal the case mouths of those S'line cases before you load! Get some 3031............ How about details on your loading proceedure. If the slugs tumble-You may well have a 'lead-mine' in that bore. What is the dia of your case expander?-You want .456-.457 for lead bullets. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Increase your smokeless powder charges for the 405's and 500's http://stevespages.com/458_1_500.html Make up some 1.5 or FFg black powder reloads for comparison: 62gr for the 405 and 68-70gr for the 500grain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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