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.357 mag case to help with blackpowder blow by


Dead_Head

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I shoot in the Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter category and shoot .38 Special cases full of Triple 7 powder with either 125 gr or 147/158 gr bullets. 

 

I take my Uberti 1873 Winchester rifle apart every time after a shoot to clean it as everyone knows about the residue that blows by and gets in the action.  I don't see that a heavier bullet helps very much with the residue probably because the .38 special case is shorter than the .357 mag case and has no chance to seal the chamber with that extra space in front of it.

 

Yes, I realize I could buy a .44-40 or .38-40 rifle to get a better seal and I may get rid of my .45 Colt rifle that I use for Wild Bunch and do that.  But in the mean time ...

 

 

Question 1:   If I bought some .357 mag cases and used a 147 gr or 158 gr bullet and inside chamfered the cases, do you think it would seal better as the case would a least fill the chamber?  Has anyone done it and how well does it work?

 

Question 2:  Do you think there will be any lead build up in the front of the chamber from shooting years of .38 special in a .357 mag chamber?  Will a brass brush get it out so a .357 mag cartridge will chamber?

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Hey Dead_Head:

I'm thinking along similar lines with my 38 rifles that don't like real black powder.

I bought some 357 cases and will anneal them.

Then they should seal the chamber and prevent most of the blow-by that locks up the action.

My friend Coffinmaker has had very good success with annealed cases preventing blow-by in his 45 rifles (shooting short C45S cases)

So, I think this will work, even with light bullets.

However, I won't get to this until September, so I can't give you positive results now.

But, I think I will be able to shoot these with real BP & not have the rifle gum up.

I'll let you know, & if you try it, please let me know.

Have a good week.

--Dawg

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Might work.  I shoot 38 Specials with Triple Seven in one Marlin and get lots of blow-by.  I shoot 357s with Triple Seven in another Marlin and get no blow-by.  I don't anneal my cases.  This may not be a test of the ammo as these are two different rifles.  Nevertheless my experience with the 357 cases is better.

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Redding dual ring sizer die.

 

https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/176-dual-ring-carbide-sizing-die-sets

 

I use this with .45 Colt cases, and it works real well for cutting down blowback and GREATLY extending case life (with conventional sizer die, I loose 3-5% of cases every firing due to mid-case lengthwise splits in the big chambers that Uberti and Marlin uses on .45 Colt rifles).

 

This is essentially a "neck sizer" die already made up by one of the best die companies.   No adjusting and partial sizing required.

 

Yes, they make this dual ring sizer die for the .38 special AND the .357 Mag case.    In order to get the lower ring (the larger diameter of the two sizing rings) to reach as far down the case as possible, you should pick the sizer die for the brass size that you want to work with.   

 

Personally, I would not change over from .38 to .357 cases just to clean up blowback, when there are other ways to solve the problem.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

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I tried this a while back & didn't see much difference - still have about 350 pieces of virgin Starline 357 brass in a box somewhere in my shop.  Full case of Goex 2FG, 158 gn bullet.  You may have better luck.

 

Holler

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

  Personally, I would not change over from .38 to .357 cases just to clean up blowback, when there are other ways to solve the problem.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

I agree. I've always shot 38 in Uberti and Marlin with 3F Schuetzen and 158gr Big Lube. 3F Schuetzen is a cleaner burning powder. Even with the blow by I still only break down once or twice a year. I spray and clean what I can with Murphy's mix followed by Ballistol. No need to worry about rust, the Murphy's oil and Ballistol will keep the fouling soft and inert. Good Luck:)

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WHne changing from 38spl to 357mag, you should cleaan the chambers to nmake sure your gt all the carbon build up out.

This build up will hang the 357 mag case up making extraction a little harder.

This build up also will hold the case up away from the chamber wall allowing blow by.

 

Next you will want to check all the chambers of all the guns you plan to shoot in a match.

You need to find the smallerest chamber.

Adjust your press sizing die to allow easy chambering in the smallerest chamber.

In all other chambers the rounds will just drop in.

This makes the cases a large as they can be and still function in all chambers.

The case will require less expansion to seal.

 

You need a good crimp on your rounds to get the case to expand behnd the bullet to seal the chamber.

 

Note: if the tightest chamber is in a revolver,  mark that chamber and size to fit the next smallest chamber.

Try not to use the tightest one which will allow you to resize a little bit larger and have less case expansion needed.

 

Of these fixes, clean chambers and tight crimping will do the most to correct the blow by.

 

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Howdy D-H.

Something that might help with question #2.

 

When Montana Anna was shooting black powder with Vaqueros and her Marlin rifle I made a scraper out of a 357 brass by just belling the open end and silver soldering a brass rod to the end of it. Attached a file handle would push it into the pistol cylinders and rifle chamber a couple of times. I could feel the crap from the blow back pushing on the 357 brass.

Follow up with an oiled patch and you could see the crud and some lead deposits.

I found that Starline Brass was a problem too. The wall thickness is just heavier enough than Winchesters and did not expand as well both in 38s and my 45 colts.

Hope this helps.

B.P.

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18 hours ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

WHne changing from 38spl to 357mag, you should cleaan the chambers to nmake sure your gt all the carbon build up out.

This build up will hang the 357 mag case up making extraction a little harder.

This build up also will hold the case up away from the chamber wall allowing blow by.

 

Next you will want to check all the chambers of all the guns you plan to shoot in a match.

You need to find the smallerest chamber.

Adjust your press sizing die to allow easy chambering in the smallerest chamber.

In all other chambers the rounds will just drop in.

This makes the cases a large as they can be and still function in all chambers.

The case will require less expansion to seal.

 

You need a good crimp on your rounds to get the case to expand behnd the bullet to seal the chamber.

 

Note: if the tightest chamber is in a revolver,  mark that chamber and size to fit the next smallest chamber.

Try not to use the tightest one which will allow you to resize a little bit larger and have less case expansion needed.

 

Of these fixes, clean chambers and tight crimping will do the most to correct the blow by.

 

 

Where do you find an adjustable sizing die? Every set of dies I have are full length and the only adjustment they have is how deep you set the depriming pin. If there is one out there, it would be great to have! My wife's Marlin has the tightest chamber I have ever seen and there have been several times that rounds that chamber just fine in my son's 92 and my 73, will either drag like crazy in her marlin or just won't chamber at all. 

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My suggestion is to load for your rifle chambers if you shoot the same calibers in both rifle and revolvers.

The rifle is where you will notice the blow by.

The revolvers have blow by by design at the cylinder gap.

 

Another issue will show itself when trying to down load.

My commercial loads where down loaded for the old rules of 650'/sec rules.

I found the most accurate rounds had a velocity near 700'/sec. (this would be smokeless rounds)

 

My black powder loads where set to about 740'/sec.

------------------

Check for over spec chambers diameters.

The early Ruger .44 where under spec and in most cases needed to be recut.

Older Colts needed over sized rounds because they were either over diameter or just worn out.

 

I had issues with my 6 early Vaqueros.

After loading 3 different diameters, I had my gunsmith recut them all to match and for the .452" bullet.

After that I could load all the ammunition the same for all my .45 guns.

My .38/.357" guns where all set p to accept .358" bullets.

------------------

Getting the large caliber guns 44 and 45 to expand their cases to seal need more energy.

Light loads are a problem then add a light bullet and sealing becomes near impossible unless your reload specifically for that.

My commercial black powder load was 28 gr Goex or equivilant other brands for velocity in 44 and 45.

I used instant grit for filler.

Good roll crimp with an overall length of 1.58”.

So many guns and I can say there is not a One Size fits all.

There is a One Sizes fits most.

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Hi Dead Head  :mellow:

 

Above are all manner of possible and maybe solutions that for the most part .... don't work.  Some may mitigate it, some may not solve anything.  We are talking about straight wall cases.  Straight wall cases suffer Blow-By.  Some worse than others, depending on the individual manufacturers case wall thickness.  Neither 38s nor 357s loaded for this game are going to expand to seal the chamber.  To run clean, you will need to anneal your cases.  Annealed cases will expand to seal the chamber.

 

Depending on the specific powder you have been using, you may well have a carbon ring in your chamber at the depth of the 38 case mouth.  It will need to be removed to run 357 cases.  The folks at Slix make a nifty tool for this little job.  Some powders don't leave "ring around the chamber" so I suggest you run a factory new 357 case in your chamber to check.  You may not need to do anything except change over.

 

Simply changing to 357 cases will not solve the blow-by problem.  You'll need to learn annealing.  It's a nuisance.  It's Skull Numbing Boring.  It works a treat.

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I am going to get some Winchester .357 mag cases, anneal them, inside chamfer them, get a  Redding Dual Ring Carbidge Sizing Die, load them up with a 158 bullet and see if I can get satisfaction.  All this after a ten day trip coming up for my 50th high school reunion in Virginia.

 

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Ray,

 

You have shot with me many times.  I use a full case of real black powder in that highly scratched up model '66 "Girly Rifle"  which is 38 special.  I get minimal blowback using 38's, my only option. I do not anneal cases.   I do not have to disassemble the rifle after each match.  Matter of fact, the last time I disassembled it to clean it, I found ZERO blow back  debris in the action.  I liberally apply spray ballistol to the carrier when it begins to drag a tad and the big lube bullets that I cast and lube with my homebrew beeswax BP lube keep the rifle running with no hiccups for the entire shoot.  My suggestion is to try getting away from using the BP substitutes and go to a full case of the real black powder.  You will solve all your problems.  My success using real BP cannot be denied.

 

Grizz

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Howdy Dead Head

 

I heard through the grape vine you were thinking of changing to 44-40. Let me know if you need any help with that.

 

Otherwise, I would just follow our old friend Grizz Henry's advice and do what ever he does.

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Ray,

Forgot to mention that the bullet I use is a  "Snakebite" designed  1 58 grain big lube that I cast from a Lee 6 cavity mold.  As you have mentioned the heavier bullet is important in that it creates more chamber pressure than the 125 grain or lighter bullets and must result in better 38 special case expansion helping to seal off the chamber minimizing if not stopping rearward escape of gases & crud into the action.   At least with my rifle this appears to be the case.  My rifle is not a 38/357 so there is no unfilled case space in the chamber as there would be if it were a .357.  I would experiment with some real BP and the subs that you are now using with your  heavier bullets and annealed .357 cases and see what gives you the best results. ( DO NOT go out and buy .357 cases.  I have jugs full of them, brass and nickel, that you are most welcome to have for your experimentation - free.  Email me if you are interested in them).

 

Grizz

 

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