Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Sign in to follow this  
irish ike, SASS #43615

WTC Guidence

Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

 

 

Sounds more like a plant stand and a very poor choice to be staging and restaging two long guns on.

 

 

The point being that your statement regarding tables that lack side rails or door jambs not being unsafe is actually dependant on the table size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The point being that your statement regarding tables that lack side rails or door jambs not being unsafe is actually dependant on the table size.

 

True 'nuff.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could too. Haha

 

Back to the table... If the table was unstable, tilted or in some other way not a flat, stable platform, I could buy the re-shoot.

But if the long guns were safely staged there and nothing was said prior to the start of the stage and in the process of restaging, they fell... SDQ!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

slip and fall does not equal bounce and fall,,,,

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK a bit of clarity...maybe. Table was flat and covered with carpet. Two Posse's. Each with a PM. There was a gap big enough for a long gun to fall between the table and the door jamb if, if, if the shooter restaged the gun OK it shouldn't have been an issue. The dropped gun occurred when the shooter was re-staging the long gun, let it go and it went between the table and door jamb, 170 wasn't broken and the gun was empty. So Minor safety? They earned it, but not a MDQ?

 

My bigger issue was the PM decided to move the table and eliminate the gap. Thereby changing the stage for all the shooters that followed. I was suggesting a re-shoot because the condition of the stage changed and the risk for a dropped gun was eliminated!

Ike

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dropped unloaded gun = SDQ

 

Table should not have been moved. A warning to following shooters maybe, but not changing the stage.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jasper is on target. From the shooters handbook;

Minor Safety Violation (MSV) infractions include: - Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine, action, or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded. - Open, empty long guns that slip and fall – but do not break the 170° safety rule or sweep anyone.

So no SDQ!

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so the shooter dropped it, he let it go and it fell between the table and door jamb,,,  that is NOT a slip and fall,,,,   sdq

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

so the shooter dropped it, he let it go and it fell between the table and door jamb,,,  that is NOT a slip and fall,,,,   sdq

Or MSV

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The dropped gun occurred when the shooter was re-staging the long gun, let it go and it went between the table and door jamb, 170 wasn't broken and the gun was empty.

 

As the gun never came to rest at the intended restaging position, it was, by definition, a dropped gun.

 

SHB pg 44

 

Quote

Dropped  firearm  –  a  firearm  that  has  left  the  shooter’s  control  and  comes  to  rest  at  a location  or  position  other  than  where  it was  intended. 

 

SHB pg 23

 

Quote

SDQ

Any  dropped  unloaded  firearm  on  the  firing  line. 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

As the gun never came to rest at the intended restaging position, it was, by definition, a dropped gun.

 

SHB pg 44

 

 

SHB pg 23

 

 

Without actually being there...or seeing the act/setup/etc, we cannot make a determination here on the WIRE as to whether the penalty should have been a SDQ or MSV.

 

Phantom

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Without actually being there...or seeing the act/setup/etc, we cannot make a determination here on the WIRE as to whether the penalty should have been a SDQ or MSV.

 

Phantom

I'll agree with that.

 

I'll also agree that since I was not assigned as one of the ROs on that stage at the time, it was not my call to make, either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ike was on the other posse with myself. We shot the stage after the table was moved. We did not have any trouble. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would it make any more sense to anyone, if we make believe there was no door jam..... Just wide open spaces....

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As Phantom said, "It depends."

 

And Jewish law required at least 2 witnesses for good reason.  Not that the individual witness was intentionally "wrong" or dishonest.  Just that our observvations and memories can be in error.

 

SO the folks that were there had to observe and make the best decision they could - and they may possibly wish they had changed it.

 

But WE can all learn from it!!

 

Isn't that great!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The how and why the guns fell is just that the shooters re-staged and the empty gun fell to the ground, no prop failure so SDQ.

The thing I'm trying to reconcile is the fact the table was turned eliminating the gap where a gun could fall between the table and the door jamb. If left alone potentially other shooters may have had the same SDQ and  the playing field remained the same.  Even a warning to the other shooters would have changed the way the following shooters shot the stage.

The other side of this  is the same table is used as a stand alone shooting position and the shooters stage and re-stage guns on this table all the time!

 

By guidance I was looking for a way to tell the shooters who act as PM's to leave stuff alone in the middle of the shoot. Unless it poses a clear safety violation to all. Which I guess should be discovered before shooting starts but you can't always fid this stuff until shooters start shooting.

Shooters did earn SDQ, it was the after action that got everyone scratching their heads.

Ike

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The how and why the guns fell is just that the shooters re-staged and the empty gun fell to the ground, no prop failure so SDQ.

The thing I'm trying to reconcile is the fact the table was turned eliminating the gap where a gun could fall between the table and the door jamb. If left alone potentially other shooters may have had the same SDQ and  the playing field remained the same.  Even a warning to the other shooters would have changed the way the following shooters shot the stage.

The other side of this  is the same table is used as a stand alone shooting position and the shooters stage and re-stage guns on this table all the time!

 

By guidance I was looking for a way to tell the shooters who act as PM's to leave stuff alone in the middle of the shoot. Unless it poses a clear safety violation to all. Which I guess should be discovered before shooting starts but you can't always fid this stuff until shooters start shooting.

Shooters did earn SDQ, it was the after action that got everyone scratching their heads.

Ike

Well there should be no scratching of the head. They shouldn't have moved the table without talking to the MD. 

 

If the table position was deemed un-safe because it would lead to dropped guns, then those that had their guns fall to the ground would get a reshoot.

 

Changing a stage layout in any way makes for two separate matches...not good. And folks should KNOW this!!!!

 

Phantom

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well there should be no scratching of the head. They shouldn't have moved the table without talking to the MD. 

 

If the table position was deemed un-safe because it would lead to dropped guns, then those that had their guns fall to the ground would get a reshoot.

 

Changing a stage layout in any way makes for two separate matches...not good. And folks should KNOW this!!!!

 

Phantom

I agree with Phantom. The stage design should not have been unilaterally changed.

 

I do wonder, however, why should we not offer a reshoot to everyone who previously shot the stage? As the stage design was changed after they shot it, those folks' performance could have just as easily been affected by the previous design, i.e. they slowed down to make sure their guns didn't hit dirt. As he correctly states, the changed layout has now made for 2 separate matches.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

By guidance I was looking for a way to tell the shooters who act as PM's to leave stuff alone in the middle of the shoot. Unless it poses a clear safety violation to all. Which I guess should be discovered before shooting starts but you can't always fid this stuff until shooters start shooting.

 

RO II pg 2

All stages shall be visually inspected for safety.  Any noted potential problem areas shall be discussed and any safety issues resolved at this time.  Also, any ―watch out areas should be pointed out so shooters can avoid safety problems.  Any changes necessary to make the stages safer shall be completed at this time—prior to any of the participants shooting the stage

 

RO II Pg 5

Remember, there are points of bad stage design and setup that cause the shooter or non-shooter to be at risk.    If a stage is found to have severe and hazardous safety flaws, the Chief Range Officer shall politely confront the Range Master or Match Director with the potential for problems.  If no safe and timely remedy is implemented, Range Officers should consider quietly dismissing themselves from the event.  Voting with one‘s feet is the ultimate way of communicating with an unresponsive organization. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

As the gun never came to rest at the intended restaging position, it was, by definition, a dropped gun.

 

SHB pg 44

 

 

SHB pg 23

 

 

 

So all the shooters had to say was that they INTENDED for the rifle to be on the ground in the gap and it's no penalty?  Cause unless the stage instructions say different, the ground is a legal staging surface.  If it does say they have to use the table, then it's just a P for staging in the wrong place. 

 

The only legitimate reason for moving the table was if there was a safety concern.  We can argue that there wasn't a real safety concern and that he didn't do it correctly, but the clearly the PM thought there was one.  Assuming the PMs reason was because of the dropped rifles, that was a prop failure and the shooters should have had the SDQ removed (or a reshoot if they didn't get a time recorded). 

 

Now, maybe the PM had another reason that had nothing to do with the rifles that slipped and fell, but I can't think of any. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

So all the shooters had to say was that they INTENDED for the rifle to be on the ground in the gap and it's no penalty?  Cause unless the stage instructions say different, the ground is a legal staging surface.  If it does say they have to use the table, then it's just a P for staging in the wrong place. 

What prevents anyone from saying that anytime a gun hits the dirt?

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

What prevents anyone from saying that anytime a gun hits the dirt?

 

Integrity 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for the record, if I ever expect my long gun to hit the dirt restaging it, I'll call my shot....

 

After the last shot I'm gonna open the lever and skip it off the table, bounce it off the door frame and have it fall between them to the dirt.  If the lever inadvertently closes in that process, I'll come back and open it at the end of the stage to see if any penalty has been incurred.

 

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

So all the shooters had to say was that they INTENDED for the rifle to be on the ground in the gap and it's no penalty?  Cause unless the stage instructions say different, the ground is a legal staging surface.  If it does say they have to use the table, then it's just a P for staging in the wrong place. 

 

The only legitimate reason for moving the table was if there was a safety concern.  We can argue that there wasn't a real safety concern and that he didn't do it correctly, but the clearly the PM thought there was one.  Assuming the PMs reason was because of the dropped rifles, that was a prop failure and the shooters should have had the SDQ removed (or a reshoot if they didn't get a time recorded). 

 

Now, maybe the PM had another reason that had nothing to do with the rifles that slipped and fell, but I can't think of any. 

Your not understanding the difference between a dropped gun and a gun that falls off of a prop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

So all the shooters had to say was that they INTENDED for the rifle to be on the ground in the gap and it's no penalty?  Cause unless the stage instructions say different, the ground is a legal staging surface.  If it does say they have to use the table, then it's just a P for staging in the wrong place. 

 

The only legitimate reason for moving the table was if there was a safety concern.  We can argue that there wasn't a real safety concern and that he didn't do it correctly, but the clearly the PM thought there was one.  Assuming the PMs reason was because of the dropped rifles, that was a prop failure and the shooters should have had the SDQ removed (or a reshoot if they didn't get a time recorded). 

 

Now, maybe the PM had another reason that had nothing to do with the rifles that slipped and fell, but I can't think of any. 

WHAT? The PM was WRONG!!! In moving the table, he changed the whole match. No one ever said anything about the table being unstable or unsafe at all, just not as wide as the door. Be more careful, don't DROP your long guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, COLORADO JACKSON said:

Your not understanding the difference between a dropped gun and a gun that falls off of a prop.

hmmmm,,,, there isn't,,, if you weren't careful putting it down in the first place!!       slip and fall is not a get out of a sdq free card,,,,,

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

What prevents anyone from saying that anytime a gun hits the dirt?

 

Like Cypress said, Integrity.  But also, most of the time when the gun falls it sweeps someone or breaks the 170.  In this case it didn't do any of those things.  At least from the description, it sounds like if he had bent down and placed the gun there, it wouldn't have broken any rules. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, COLORADO JACKSON said:

Your not understanding the difference between a dropped gun and a gun that falls off of a prop.

 

Actually, I think you're not understanding it.  People are making a distinction between "dropped" and "fallen", but I can't find a definition for 'slip and fall' in any handbooks.  The definition for dropped hinges on the gun coming to rest in a place other than where the shooter intended.  Well, how much leeway is there in that phrase?  If the gun bounces once and stays on the shelf, it's clearly not EXACTLY where the shooter intended.  What if the shooter intended before the stage to stage it at position 2, but forgets and stages it at position 1 after the shooting string?  That's not where he intended either, but no one would call either of those a dropped gun.  We can have a lot of fun with getting into the shooter's intentions again if we want.  But I submit that as long as the gun comes to rest in a spot where it's safely staged and didn't break the 170 or sweep anyone on the way there, then we can say he intended to safely stage the gun and that's close enough.  From what we've been told, that's what happened here. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I know from what I just said it might sound like I think it should have been a no call.  But I don't, I just don't think it was dropped.  It should have been an MSV because even though I can't find the definition for slip and fall, it seems to me that the gun touching the prop then moving off of it fits the classic Webster's definition of slip much more closely than Webster's definition of drop. 

 

 

15 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

WHAT? The PM was WRONG!!! In moving the table, he changed the whole match. No one ever said anything about the table being unstable or unsafe at all, just not as wide as the door. Be more careful, don't DROP your long guns.

 

As I thought I said, we agree the PM was wrong.  My point is that clearly the PM THOUGHT the table was unsafe because that's the only legitimate reason to move it once the match has started.  If the table was unsafe, it was the right thing to do to fix the table.  Don't get hung up on whether it was really a prop failure.  I wasn't there, I won't argue that point.  I think we've all agreed that it probably wasn't.  But safety issues can be subjective and I like to always err on the side of safety.  So the only part of this that I'm willing to speak on is that the PM should have removed the SDQs from the 2 shooters once he 'fixed' the table.  Since it sounds like he stopped them and they didn't get a recorded time, that would mean a reshoot.  I'm not positive if the MSV would carry over.  I thought that a prop failure would negate a slip and fall penalty, but I can't find it in the handbook. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Like Cypress said, Integrity.  But also, most of the time when the gun falls it sweeps someone or breaks the 170.  In this case it didn't do any of those things.  At least from the description, it sounds like if he had bent down and placed the gun there, it wouldn't have broken any rules. 

 

Really??

:wacko::blink:

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Actually, I think you're not understanding it.  People are making a distinction between "dropped" and "fallen", but I can't find a definition for 'slip and fall' in any handbooks.  The definition for dropped hinges on the gun coming to rest in a place other than where the shooter intended.  Well, how much leeway is there in that phrase?  If the gun bounces once and stays on the shelf, it's clearly not EXACTLY where the shooter intended.  What if the shooter intended before the stage to stage it at position 2, but forgets and stages it at position 1 after the shooting string?  That's not where he intended either, but no one would call either of those a dropped gun.  We can have a lot of fun with getting into the shooter's intentions again if we want.  But I submit that as long as the gun comes to rest in a spot where it's safely staged and didn't break the 170 or sweep anyone on the way there, then we can say he intended to safely stage the gun and that's close enough.  From what we've been told, that's what happened here. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I know from what I just said it might sound like I think it should have been a no call.  But I don't, I just don't think it was dropped.  It should have been an MSV because even though I can't find the definition for slip and fall, it seems to me that the gun touching the prop then moving off of it fits the classic Webster's definition of slip much more closely than Webster's definition of drop. 

 

 

 

As I thought I said, we agree the PM was wrong.  My point is that clearly the PM THOUGHT the table was unsafe because that's the only legitimate reason to move it once the match has started.  If the table was unsafe, it was the right thing to do to fix the table.  Don't get hung up on whether it was really a prop failure.  I wasn't there, I won't argue that point.  I think we've all agreed that it probably wasn't.  But safety issues can be subjective and I like to always err on the side of safety.  So the only part of this that I'm willing to speak on is that the PM should have removed the SDQs from the 2 shooters once he 'fixed' the table.  Since it sounds like he stopped them and they didn't get a recorded time, that would mean a reshoot.  I'm not positive if the MSV would carry over.  I thought that a prop failure would negate a slip and fall penalty, but I can't find it in the handbook. 

 

 

 

I don't think there is any consensus that the table was in fact unsafe.  I certainly don't agree with that statement and many others on the thread don't either.   IIRC slip and fall requires that the gun have actually come to rest, then later fell through no input of the shooter.  I don't believe that is what happened here, at least not based on the OP's description.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ramblin Gambler, it may help to put the 'slip and fall' rule into its historical context.

 

Back in the 'Good Ole' Days', we used to do a lot more vertical staging. Prop it up in a cleat on the wall, prop it in the corner of the building, whatever, there was a lot of it done. It was from here that the slip and fell rule really grew. Cowboy put his rifle in the corner on the boardwalk, nothing really holding the butt in place, gravity takes over, the gun slipped from where it was staged and ended up on the boardwalk. If someone tossed it in the corner and it bounced out, it was a DQ. But if it sat there and the center of gravity pulled enough, or other factors took hold and it slipped out of where it was staged, then it was a different scenario - for whatever reason.

 

As SASS has matured, vertical staging has given way to horizontal staging on tables. As horizontal tables have become the norm, folks have changed the way they stage guns.  Throwing or dropping a gun to a vertical surface, and the gun either missing the surface, or bouncing off the surface and ending up in the dirt is not a gun slipping off the surface. If you staged the gun precariously on part of the table and it balanced there for a while and later it took a tumble, then that would be a slip.

 

Finally, if you safely staged a long gun and then later inadvertently knocked it off the table, it did not slip and fall.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the whole discussion on slip vs. fall can't be resolved in this case. I didn't see how the long guns left the table. I will find out.

 

But having the PM change the stage after its already in the process of being shot is what needs to be addressed. Monthly match, who cares? Well we do. The table in question is a sturdy steel frame with a sturdy top. We have several of them We use them in stand alone shooting positions all the time. Then there is nothing but the table to stage your guns and they work.  

 

The outcome for this is to;

1. Tell all the shooters you own the stage and be aware of the staging conditions.

2. Tell all the shooters that the stage is not to be modified once shooting has started unless something fails on the prop or tables causing an unsafe condition. The two dropped guns in this instance were not prop failures, but more than likely shooter re-staging the gun too close to the edge or literally while not looking placing the gun into the gap. All speculation on my part but we do know the table wasn't the issue.

3.  Tell the shooters that when a situation comes up like this come get the TG or match director and discuss it.

 

How's that?

Ike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Actually, I think you're not understanding it.  People are making a distinction between "dropped" and "fallen", but I can't find a definition for 'slip and fall' in any handbooks.  The definition for dropped hinges on the gun coming to rest in a place other than where the shooter intended.  Well, how much leeway is there in that phrase?  If the gun bounces once and stays on the shelf, it's clearly not EXACTLY where the shooter intended.  What if the shooter intended before the stage to stage it at position 2, but forgets and stages it at position 1 after the shooting string?  That's not where he intended either, but no one would call either of those a dropped gun.  We can have a lot of fun with getting into the shooter's intentions again if we want.  But I submit that as long as the gun comes to rest in a spot where it's safely staged and didn't break the 170 or sweep anyone on the way there, then we can say he intended to safely stage the gun and that's close enough.  From what we've been told, that's what happened here. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I know from what I just said it might sound like I think it should have been a no call.  But I don't, I just don't think it was dropped.  It should have been an MSV because even though I can't find the definition for slip and fall, it seems to me that the gun touching the prop then moving off of it fits the classic Webster's definition of slip much more closely than Webster's definition of drop. 

 

 

 

As I thought I said, we agree the PM was wrong.  My point is that clearly the PM THOUGHT the table was unsafe because that's the only legitimate reason to move it once the match has started.  If the table was unsafe, it was the right thing to do to fix the table.  Don't get hung up on whether it was really a prop failure.  I wasn't there, I won't argue that point.  I think we've all agreed that it probably wasn't.  But safety issues can be subjective and I like to always err on the side of safety.  So the only part of this that I'm willing to speak on is that the PM should have removed the SDQs from the 2 shooters once he 'fixed' the table.  Since it sounds like he stopped them and they didn't get a recorded time, that would mean a reshoot.  I'm not positive if the MSV would carry over.  I thought that a prop failure would negate a slip and fall penalty, but I can't find it in the handbook. 

 

 

 

I understand it just fine...look at it this way, if the shooter restages the gun on the table, it bounces around a little, never stops moving, and slides off the table and hits the ground, never breaking the 170, the shooter lost control of the gun, and earns a SDQ, i.e...it came to rest somewhere other than intended. This is a dropped gun. In the same scenario, the shooter restages the gun, it bounces around a little but stops, and for whatever reason later in the stage slides off the table never breaking the 170, this is a gun falling off of a prop, shooter earns a minor safety, it doesn't necessarily mean its a prop failure just because it fell off the table. If it breaks the 170 in the this scenario, shooter earns a SDQ. The only way for a shooter to get a reshoot is if it was called a prop failure, meaning one leg of the table might have broken or some other part of the stage caused it to fall. In the original post it sounds like it was restaged a little rough and fell off the table, hence the DQ for the dropped gun.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.