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irish ike, SASS #43615

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Monthly shoot so a non running Yugo was on the line.

This is about an unsafe condition being corrected after some shooters have already shot it.

Table in the doorway, single shooting position so rifle and shotgun staged and restaged there. Table doesn't fill the width of the doorway and its about 20" wide. And yes we all know the shooter is responsible for their actions. Two shooters, a shotgun for one, a rifle for the other. Upon re-staging their long gun fell down between the gap of the table and door jamb. Guns were empty so they were given a SDQ,

 

The Posse Marshal determines it to be an unsafe condition. So they rotate the table which now is wider than the doorway, sits behind the storefront, to eliminate the issue. I'm the club TG. A shooter comes to me and explains what happened. I said since they corrected what was determined to be an "unsafe" condition the 2 shooters should get a re-shoot. As in sort of a prop failure.

 

The Posse Marshal didn't agree and wouldn't let them re-shoot.

 

What say you?

Ike

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We should strive to make sure all stage conditions IE props, starting position, and target placement is consistent for all shooters. I shot the stage after the table was reset. It was still tight. 

 

That being said we as shooters are responsible to ensure our guns are staged and restaged safely and the two shooters did not do that. So they earned the penalty. Sucks. 

 

The Posse marshal was boots on the ground and in my world it sucks to have leadership second guess my decision from an after the fact standpoint. 

 

I am am looking forward to reading the responses from the barracks lawyers. 

 

I would like to get Palewolfs input on this. 

 

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Moving the table alters the stage. No longer the same for everyone so I would want to allow the reshoot. Problem is, I don’t see any way to overlook the dropped gun.

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Yep, as Lead Monger said, the subsequent shooters are shooting a different stage, BUT, I don't see a way to overlook a dropped gun.  I don't see how it's prop failure either.  It's a table, it stood there while guns were placed on it.  The shooters shouldn't have placed their guns where they did and I wouldn't have moved the table after people had already shot the stage.

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Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Get another PM.........

It was a prop issue.

OLG

How? The prop failed to hold up guns that weren't placed on it?

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

How? The prop failed to hold up guns that weren't placed on it?

After re-reading what II posted, I now ask this.

Were these 2 shooters, the first 2 that shot this stage?

OLG

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

How? The prop failed to hold up guns that weren't placed on it?

 

Maybe if there was stiff carpet or whatever, stretched across the table that over hung on the ends that concealed the lack of support under the table, I could see the prop malfunction call. Otherwise, no reshoot for the ones with dropped guns. Safeties carry over. 

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Who was the Match Director?  He/she should have the final call.  My call - stage has been changed due to an unsafe condition.  Re-shoot for the two shooters.  Whether they were the first two shooters, middle two, or last two that shot before the stage was changed doesn't matter.  It was changed because of safety and this had a direct impact on the two shooters that were given a SDQ.

 

BS

 

 

 

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Was it the job of the PM to rotate the table and change the stage from the way it was originally set up in the first place?

 

How many other shooters shot the stage before the PM decided to change to change the configuration of the stage?

 

How many shooters who previously completed the stage without issue could have benefited from the new configuration?

 

Was the original configuration truly unsafe, or just deemed unsafe because two shooters had difficulty with it? 

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Generally on a reshoot, the safety penalties stay, so . . .

 

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Marauder beat me to it.

 

No reshoot..... and safety penalties carry forward  (unless its empties left in the revolver).

 

One other opinion:   Its my understanding that only the shooter can protest the call and should

be addressed by the MD........ not the TG at this point.

 

So basically, I see no grounds for a reshoot.  

But.....What did the MD rule?

 

..........Widder

 

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How is this a prop failure?

If I set up a 36" table and the shooter planned on a 38" table (and dropped a gun), should I have put a 38" table there and now change the stage for subsequent shooters? I don't think so. Could the set-up have been better, using a wider table to start with? Yes. Prop failure? No

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I should use 10' x 10' targets so no one (well, maybe) misses, but we have what we have and that's what you get

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I'm with the penalty stands, no reshoot side. If the table fell over when they restaged - then I would go for a prop failure.

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RO II pg 2

Quote

All stages shall be visually inspected for safety.  Any noted potential problem areas shall be discussed and any safety issues resolved at this time.  Also, any ―watch out areas should be pointed out so shooters can avoid safety problems.  Any changes necessary to make the stages safer shall be completed at this time—prior to any of the participants shooting the stage

 

RO II Pg 5

Quote

Remember, there are points of bad stage design and setup that cause the shooter or non-shooter to be at risk.    If a stage is found to have severe and hazardous safety flaws, the Chief Range Officer shall politely confront the Range Master or Match Director with the potential for problems.  If no safe and timely remedy is implemented, Range Officers should consider quietly dismissing themselves from the event.  Voting with one‘s feet is the ultimate way of communicating with an unresponsive organization. 

 

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6 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I should use 10' x 10' targets so no one (well, maybe) misses, but we have what we have and that's what you get

You use 10'x10'?  Right, when pigs fly.

 

I thought your match Saturday was fairly challenging, especially 5 and 6.  Then I went to a match Sunday that had playing card sized (maybe 3"x5") rifle targets at 20 yards.  That was challenging, and no I didn't miss them. 

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I just meant that we set up what we do and that's what the shooter has, not what they would WANT. (i.e. a larger table or larger targets)

And I knew you'd like the pistol KDs. I will never give those to ya without giving SG makeups. I know they were a challenge and I don't use em all the time.

I did rattle of a sub 20 time Saturday, which for me is outta sight. lol

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Having arrived after the fact I was told that both guns that fell were empty and pointing down range. This makes the call a minor safety violation instead of a stage DQ. 

From the RO pocket card - Empty long guns that slip and fall but don’t break 170 or sweep anyone is a MSV. 

The rest of the calls were a can of worms and something for our shooters to learn from. We have been using those same tables for years so If I was present during the problem I would have called a MSV if the guns fell pointing down range not breaking the 170 degree and told the rest of the shooters to beware and moved on. 

                                                     JA

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What you're describing Jaspar doesn't seem to agree with what the OP said. The slip and fall doesn't apply unless the guns were safely restaged then AFTER they have come to rest some failure of the prop caused them to slip and fall.  If you drop a gun on a prop and it falls off, that's a dropped gun.  So you're saying these shooters safely restaged their guns which subsequently fell to the ground without any input from the shooter?  What characteristic of the prop failed and caused these guns to slip and fall?

11 minutes ago, Jasper Agate said:

Having arrived after the fact I was told that both guns that fell were empty and pointing down range. This makes the call a minor safety violation instead of a stage DQ. 

From the RO pocket card - Empty long guns that slip and fall but don’t break 170 or sweep anyone is a MSV. 

The rest of the calls were a can of worms and something for our shooters to learn from. We have been using those same tables for years so If I was present during the problem I would have called a MSV if the guns fell pointing down range not breaking the 170 degree and told the rest of the shooters to beware and moved on. 

                                                     JA

 

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Im having a hard time understanding how this was deemed an unsafe condition, if the guns were staged on the table to begin with and just fell to the side when re-staged that blame lies solely on the shooter. The table may have not been wide enough for the shooter to throw their gun down and let it bounce around like many do, it might have required a little more finess to re-stage, that's not an unsafe situation, that's a responsibility of the shooter to re-stage them safely where they started. There are many stages that have smaller staging and restaging areas and that doesn't mean they are unsafe, it means its the shooters responsibility to take this into account and restage their guns properly. In my opinion, any table that you can stage long guns on, you can also restage them there also. Am I missing something? The correct call if the fallen guns did not break the 170 while falling would be a minor safety and no reshoot.

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5 minutes ago, COLORADO JACKSON said:

Im having a hard time understanding how this was deemed an unsafe condition, if the guns were staged on the table to begin with and just fell to the side when re-staged that blame lies solely on the shooter. The table may have not been wide enough for the shooter to throw their gun down and let it bounce around like many do, it might have required a little more finess to re-stage, that's not an unsafe situation, that's a responsibility of the shooter to re-stage them safely where they started. There are many stages that have smaller staging and restaging areas and that doesn't mean they are unsafe, it means its the shooters responsibility to take this into account and restage their guns properly. In my opinion, any table that you can stage long guns on, you can also restage them there also. Am I missing something? The correct call if the fallen guns did not break the 170 while falling would be a minor safety and no reshoot.

That's if they were successfully restaged and then later fell through no fault of the shooter.  If the shooter tried to restage and they ended up on the ground it's a SDQ.

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

That's if they were successfully restaged and then later fell through no fault of the shooter.  If the shooter tried to restage and they ended up on the ground it's a SDQ.

You are correct...In the OP, he states, "upon restaging their long gun, fell down between the gap", I was referring more to it being deemed unsafe. He never was really clear exactly when they fell.

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3 minutes ago, COLORADO JACKSON said:

You are correct...In the OP, he states, "upon restaging their long gun, fell down between the gap", I was referring more to it being deemed unsafe. He never was really clear exactly when they fell.

I was in the same boat. I took upon to indicate that it was on restaging, or, by definition, in the course of. SDQ.

 

But I get back to the fact that a PM had no authority to take it upon his/herself and change the configuration of the stage for during the course of a match.

 

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Once again, I am lost on this issue.  If it is a prop failure, why would the shooter receive a penalty and not get a re-shoot?  Happened at Bordertown where a rifle was sit down and came to a rest.  It slipped off the prop with no interference and it was determined  the prop was not stable.  The shooter asked for a re-shoot which was taken to the match director who oked the re-shoot, and the prop was better stabilized.  No penalty was carried forward.  

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2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Was it the job of the PM to rotate the table and change the stage from the way it was originally set up in the first place?

 

How many other shooters shot the stage before the PM decided to change to change the configuration of the stage?

 

How many shooters who previously completed the stage without issue could have benefited from the new configuration?

 

Was the original configuration truly unsafe, or just deemed unsafe because two shooters had difficulty with it? 

It is NEVER the posse Marshal's job to alter a stage. That is the job of the Match Director.

Given it was a monthly shoot, it might have been just a single posse and the Posse Marshal = Match Director.

 

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I do think some clarity on the difference between a gun falling due to prop failure, with no resulting penalty, and a gun slipping and falling and earning an MSV, would be helpful.

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First off the posse marshal doesn't have the authority to change the stage. If he thinks it's unsafe stop shooting and get the MD.   

  If he changes it he just cheated every other shooter who shot the stage already.

  The dropped guns is on the shooter.  It stinks,  but 20" is more than enough room to safely stage all your guns

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Upon restaging their long guns fell down between the gap of the table and door jamb. This is the information we have and it sounds like a dropped gun to me. The shooters should have set the firearms down with more care. Moving the table later is a different issue.

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Long guns were to restaged on the table.  What is around the table is of no consequence.  Long guns slid off the table, SDQ.

 

I don't see a table without side rails or door jambs on each side as unsafe.  We use them all the time.

 

 

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Just my 2 cents, if the long guns fell and did NOT break the 170, it's just a minor safety under the current 2019 rules. Page 22 SASS Shooters' Handbook, "10 Second  Penalties", Minor Safety Violations. As far as the prop, sounds like poor stage design, the match official should have been consulted prior to moving the table. 

 

TB

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27 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Long guns were to restaged on the table.  What is around the table is of no consequence.  Long guns slid off the table, SDQ.

 

I don't see a table without side rails or door jambs on each side as unsafe.  We use them all the time.

 

 

How's about a table that's 12"X12" with no sides...?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

How's about a table that's 12"X12" with no sides...?

 

 

 

 

Sounds more like a plant stand and a very poor choice to be staging and restaging two long guns on.

 

 

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3 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I should use 10' x 10' targets so no one (well, maybe) misses, but we have what we have and that's what you get

I could miss 'em!

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