Possible Squib in SG. How does TO handle?

[Hoss]

Here’s a kinda funny, kinda scary, but true story. 

Shooter shooing 97. Has had shotgun ammo issues, poor crimp allowing shot to leak out. He has a poof, shot dribbles out end if barrel more due to gravity than powder force. Wad definitely did not come out. TO and 1/2 the posse yell SQUIB. shooter goes to load another round. TO says no, you have a wad stuck in Barrel. Shooters says no problem, I’ll shoot it out. TO says no put gun down. By this time smoke is pouring out of ejection port. Apparent the plastic was was burning in the barrel! 

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Rowdy Ranger Rick said:

I think I was the shooter Captain Bill Burt referenced in his original post...and later as a 80'ish older gent...not quite, but knocking on the door of Elder Statesman Category. I was real interested in this thread. I shot 1st shotgun barrel, BOOM, 2nd barrel, pfft, TO (Captain Bill Burt) asked if barrel was blocked, I looked down barrels and replied it was (but somewhat ghostly, could see a little light, this to myself), did as TO instructed, loaded only unobstructed barrel, knocked down remaining targets. Went to ULT, looked down barrels and they were clear. When I received  my brass and hulls, one hull had the wad partially out. So, I made a mental note next time I will look on ground if wad is still in hull and maybe drop a pistol/rifle round down barrel to clear. Time difference though was probably negligible. Since I declared the barrel obstructed, I figured my stage was completed. Now, if TO had stopped me, and when checking barrels at ULT they might have been clear, a reshoot I guess. I do not know what that ghostly stuff in the barrel was but in process of shooting other barrel and walking to ULT it fell out unnoticed. This was at the Georgia State Match. Interesting.

 

RRR

I thought I remembered something like this happening more than once. The incident I recalled in this thread wasn’t you, it was a mutual friend who is in his eighties and who always shoots with his son. I don’t want to mention names and drag them into this but I expect you know them from DHI.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

3 hours ago, Hoss said:

By this time smoke is pouring out of ejection port. Apparent the plastic was was burning in the barrel! 

That is totally believable. 

Plastic used in wads is not formulated to endure excessive heat (witness their heat deformation after being fired).  If retained in a hot barrel, they can burn up or melt to the barrel wall, depending on material. 

When I had the earlier described squib that ruptured the Mossberg barrel 30 years ago, the second shot that blew out the barrel did not clear the original stuck wad, because it had melted and essentially welded to the hot barrel inside.  The barrel let go before the welded plastic did.  The pellets and second wad went out the side of the barrel.  

[Equanimous Phil]

1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

When I had the earlier described squib that ruptured the Mossberg barrel 30 years ago, the second shot that blew out the barrel did not clear the original stuck wad, because it had melted and essentially welded to the hot barrel inside. 

If I read things like that I don't think that a squib can be unerringly removed  on the line on the timer. Imho, the barrel should be properly cleared, cleaned and be declared safe at the ULT without time pressure. If a shooter pushes the wad (or some of it...) out with a rod, a bullet or whatever, I don't consider it easy for the TO to tell what kind of residues are in the barrel (especially after a couple of stages).

[Tennessee williams]

Oh good grief

[McCandless]

This SxS discussion has circled the drain...

Now we're going to stop a shooter because of "residue"??  That means no shooter with plastic "snot" and BP soot in the barrel could participate.  

This is getting to the point where we are "straining at gnats".  If a shooter sees that both barrels are clear, a T.O. affirms the barrels are clear...

 

Everybody here has the right to their views.  Fine.  But, in our search for the "lowest common denominator", must we presume that every shooter is stupid,

and every R.O. is incompetent?  This is where a two-person, double-check system works.  Just like a loading table that has Loading Table Officer... We load 5, and show an empty under the hammer.  The LT confirms it or tells you differently.  You presume that after this double-check that there is not a live round under a hammer, that when knocked, won't light off a cartridge.  (Yes, we should always have a double-check system at the LT)

 

With the SxS discourse, we are presuming that a shooter cannot tell left from right, a good barrel from a bad, has the mental capacity of a flea, and that the R.O. is also mentally incapacitated. 

 

Perhaps we should never get blood if we need it, since that is done with a two-person, double-check system also in the O.R., under time pressure.  You never know when you might get the wrong type and die. 

 

Shooters who do not feel competent or safe firing with an unobstructed barrel should not do so and may ground their gun and move on.  I am certainly not advocating that someone do something that they do not feel safe doing.  Perhaps they should not be participating in a shooting sport.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, McCandless said:

With the SxS discourse, we are presuming that a shooter cannot tell left from right, a good barrel from a bad, has the mental capacity of a flea, and that the R.O. is also mentally incapacitated. 

Mental capacity has little to do with performing under the stress of a competition...and "mentally incapacitated" has little to do with a T.O's ability to respond with an adequate command in a timely manner if the competitor reloads in the obstructed barrel...

1 hour ago, McCandless said:

Perhaps we should never get blood if we need it, since that is done with a two-person, double-check system also in the O.R., under time pressure.  You never know when you might get the wrong type and die.

We all know that mistakes never happen in O.R's or Hospitals...nope...never.

1 hour ago, McCandless said:

Shooters who do not feel competent or safe firing with an unobstructed barrel should not do so and may ground their gun and move on.  I am certainly not advocating that someone do something that they do not feel safe doing.  Perhaps they should not be participating in a shooting sport.

Really...hmmm...I'm sure that everyone here would be more than "competent" to break a shot with a SxS that has one obstructed barrel. Faulty premise. The question is, again in our quest to be consistent so that we have a valid competition, will mistakes happen and if they do, will the results be devastating/dangerous...etc.

 

Phantom

[Dusty Devil Dale]

7 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

If I read things like that I don't think that a squib can be unerringly removed  on the line on the timer. Imho, the barrel should be properly cleared, cleaned and be declared safe at the ULT without time pressure. If a shooter pushes the wad (or some of it...) out with a rod, a bullet or whatever, I don't consider it easy for the TO to tell what kind of residues are in the barrel (especially after a couple of stages).

It all just depends on the relative importance placed on safety (risk management) v. a competitors allowed options in playing the game. 

 

Having once exploded a barrel, there is no way in the world that I would ever just poke out a wad and continue.  Others here, I am sure, would differ (at least until they experience what I did).

 

I really doubt you will find very many  gunsmiths willing to endorse the practice of either shooting out stuck wads or even firing a post-squib shotgun without first properly cleaning and inspecting the barrel.  But that is really just colloquial hear-say information.  There is a technical side that has so far been ignored here.  I would bet that the industry or military has done some testing of the tenacity of steel barrels and adherence of double barrels when obstructed in different ways and to different degrees.  So rather than consult with a bunch of competitors here, I suggest the ROC take a thorough look at what objective information is out there to consider.   It's a technical question, not a popularity vote.  The choice to allow use of a second SXS barrel, or use of a possibly or partly obstructed barrel is pure risk management.   And it isn't just the shooter who is at serious risk.  

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, McCandless said:

Shooters who do not feel competent or safe firing with an unobstructed barrel should not do so and may ground their gun and move on

That's a concern too.  If the rules allow a shooter to continue, and a shooter elects to ground the questionable gun and move on, or to stop if it is the last gun, then what would be the penalty?  Spirit of the Game?  Failure to Engage?  Or just the misses?  Right now the rules require the shooter to finish the stage, once it is begun, unless he/she is stopped by the T. O. 

(not wanting this to go another ten pages - just asking) 

[McCandless]

8 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That's a concern too.  If the rules allow a shooter to continue, and a shooter elects to ground the questionable gun and move on, or to stop if it is the last gun, then what would be the penalty?  Spirit of the Game?  Failure to Engage?  Or just the misses?  Right now the rules require the shooter to finish the stage, once it is begun, unless he/she is stopped by the T. O. 

(not wanting this to go another ten pages - just asking) 

Misses if it's the last gun.  DNF if the shooter does not elect to go on and there's other guns to go.

 

The rules don't "require" a shooter to go on.  A shooter can elect to stop shooting at any time after the first shot and take a DNF.

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

14 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That's a concern too.  If the rules allow a shooter to continue, and a shooter elects to ground the questionable gun and move on, or to stop if it is the last gun, then what would be the penalty?  Spirit of the Game?  Failure to Engage?  Or just the misses?  Right now the rules require the shooter to finish the stage, once it is begun, unless he/she is stopped by the T. O. 

(not wanting this to go another ten pages - just asking) 

 

Neither SOG nor FTE apply to the situations being discussed on this thread.

REF: SHB p.24

[McCandless]

26 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Really...hmmm...I'm sure that everyone here would be more than "competent" to break a shot with a SxS that has one obstructed barrel. Faulty premise. The question is, again in our quest to be consistent so that we have a valid competition, will mistakes happen and if they do, will the results be devastating/dangerous...etc.

 

Phantom

 

I agree with the need for consistency, and to err on the side of safety...  

 

But, judging from some of the responses here, it is disallowed to use a barrel that has been verified clear because of residue or the need for cleaning and inspection by a "qualified", (who qualifies?) gunsmith before proceeding.  Then we need to have the ROC do a feasibility/Industry Safety Standard study because obviously there must be a consensus standard somewhere, by someone, (?)  and the ROC are so highly paid and have nothing else to do...  

 

If a shooter doesn't think their gun is safe to use after an obstruction has been cleared, then, by all means, they should not proceed.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

10 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

I agree with the need for consistency, and to err on the side of safety...  

 

But, judging from some of the responses here, it is disallowed to use a barrel that has been verified clear because of residue or the need for cleaning and inspection by a "qualified", (who qualifies?) gunsmith before proceeding.  Then we need to have the ROC do a feasibility/Industry Safety Standard study because obviously there must be a consensus standard somewhere, by someone, (?)  and the ROC are so highly paid and have nothing else to do...  

 

If a shooter doesn't think their gun is safe to use after an obstruction has been cleared, then, by all means, they should not proceed.

Well...yeah, the idea that residue would be a question of safety is silly...as well as having to get a "Qualified Gunsmith" involved...

 

Again, the only question that I see worth addressing is whether we treat a SxS with one obstructed barrel (which pretty much means there's a wad stuck in there),  as a firearm that is not safe to shoot in a SASS match. Not whether someone CAN shoot it safely in other conditions (ie: Not a SASS competition). 

 

Think of it this way. Would YOU feel safe letting a competitor shoot a SxS in a match if that person told you at the beginning of the match that his/her SxS had a barrel that had one of the chambers plugged with an obstruction? 

 

Phantom

 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

That does it! I'm taking up knitting, this is too dangerous!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

IMO

Considering how complicated and contentious this entire discussion seems to be, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the ROC came to the conclusion that ALL firearms with a "suspected squib" be handled in the same manner (as directed in the SHB); regardless of any perceived "safe" options for SxS shooters.

Simply saying "NO" would certainly be much easier than adding an entire new section in the rules to cover all of the shooter's and T/O's choices; particularly in regard to the competence and "comfort level" factors involved in handling a squib situation mid-stage.

(I can hear the howls of outrage and sighs of relief already).

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

I like to think I am very tolerant. However, some of the comments I have read make me think we need some kind of an aptitude test. Or we could all just play marbles.

[Captain Bill Burt]

23 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

IMO

Considering how complicated and contentious this entire discussion seems to be, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the ROC came to the conclusion that ALL firearms with a "suspected squib" be handled in the same manner (as directed in the SHB); regardless of any perceived "safe" options for SxS shooters.

Simply saying "NO" would certainly be much easier than adding an entire new section in the rules to cover all of the shooter's and T/O's choices; particularly in regard to the competence and "comfort level" factors involved in handling a squib situation mid-stage.

(I can hear the howls of outrage and sighs of relief already).

 

 

Here's something to stir the pot a bit more PWB.  What if the first round fired from the shotgun is a squib?  We know the second barrel is OK, but if we go with all firearms must be handled the same the shooter should be instructed to make the firearm safe without firing that second round.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

11 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Here's something to stir the pot a bit more PWB.  What if the first round fired from the shotgun is a squib?  We know the second barrel is OK, but if we go with all firearms must be handled the same the shooter should be instructed to make the firearm safe without firing that second round.

 

I've noted that scenario.

IMO

Considering both the shooter's and the T/O's possible reaction time factors, there should be no issue with firing the 2nd barrel.

(i.e. no penalty for doing so if neither party involved can react fast enough to stop firing immediately after the squib...and the shot/hit should count) 

[McCandless]

20 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Here's something to stir the pot a bit more PWB.  What if the first round fired from the shotgun is a squib?  We know the second barrel is OK, but if we go with all firearms must be handled the same the shooter should be instructed to make the firearm safe without firing that second round.

 

... and what happens if that second round is fired before shooter realizes the first shot is a squib and before the T.O. can get a word out, and it's a hit.  Is that scored as a Miss, a P, an SDQ, or just time?  It has to be handled the same whether it's the last gun or the first gun... curiouser and curiouser.

 

*edit - ok, I see PWB just answered that.  He's quick on the draw!

 

*another edit - with that possible ruling, we'd have astute shooters quickly firing off the second barrel to beat the R.O. and saying, "I didn't realize it was a squib!"   

 

 

[Tyrel Cody]

{joking}

Perhaps the only answer is to ban double barrel shotguns and everyone has to shoot 87s, 97s, or single shot break action shotguns.

{/joking}

[Captain Bill Burt]

8 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

{joking}

Perhaps the only answer is to ban double barrel shotguns and everyone has to shoot 87s, 97s, or single shot break action shotguns.

{/joking}

We could just move to air guns.

[Tyrel Cody]

Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

We could just move to air guns.

 

If we do that I'm going back to golf and/or tournament bass fishing...

[Tennessee williams]

Cant we just delete this thread and act like it never happened? I hope nobody starts talking about the dangers of using reloaded ammo or breathing the paint when we do targets. Some people dont even have sites on their firearms. How can we be sure they know what they're shooting at? As a matter of fact, Widder shoots his shotgun so fast it's probably a safety hazard. After all, that barrel is gonna get real hot. It may not totally melt the wad but its gonna melt part of it, and it'll add up every shot. Maybe we need to set a minimum speed he can shoot it. Or make him stop and show the TO the barrel aint cloggin up too much. These liberal ideals are pretty good. I think we need to adopt them so everybody can be rainbows and sugar plums. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

13 minutes ago, McCandless said:

 

... and what happens if that second round is fired before shooter realizes the first shot is a squib and before the T.O. can get a word out, and it's a hit.  Is that scored as a Miss, a P, an SDQ, or just time?  It has to be handled the same whether it's the last gun or the first gun... curiouser and curiouser.

 

*edit - ok, I see PWB just answered that.  He's quick on the draw!

 

*another edit - with that possible ruling, we'd have astute shooters quickly firing off the second barrel to beat the R.O. and saying, "I didn't realize it was a squib!"   

 

IMO.

Immediately after the 2nd barrel has been fired, the shotgun should then be handled the same as any other "squibbed" firearm.

(getting back to having to add another page of "handling procedures" specific to SxS shotguns)

[Griff]

I find it rather humorous that after many years of playing this game...  an apparent ambiguity came up and was discussed here ad nasueum.  Mainly how a squib that "wasn't" was treated.  With some TOs offering a reshoot when it was determined that the barrel of the either pistol or rifle was clear.... While other TOs didn't offer said reshoot.   A ruling was made that provided guidance and the SHB was amended...  in 2017.   In all of that discussion I don't believe that a shotgun squib was ever mentioned... they ARE rather rare... To my recollection they never entered into any discussion participant's radar...

 

Now, a scant 2-½ years later, someone reads a line in a rule book, and assumes it was written for application across the board.  While other more experienced TOs have been following what for them has been the common sense approach from since well before the turn of the century.  

 

I firmly see the distinction between fixed, single barrel firearms and a break open design where an obstruction can be seen... and an immediate determination made whether it is safe to continue or not.  

 

Making a ruling based on someones fears of what could, might, may, or thinks will happen is akin to forcing the rest of us to quit playing in major league baseball and reverting back to T-ball.

 

getting up and driving to work has risk associated... 

 

I definitely see the allure of 3-Gun... vs the game this is headed for.  I no longer wonder why we're not experiencing any growth.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I'm bet'n we go for at least 10 pages...........

PWB-will need a large bottle of Aspirin.......

OLG

[Widder, SASS #59054]

4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Cant we just delete this thread and act like it never happened? I hope nobody starts talking about the dangers of using reloaded ammo or breathing the paint when we do targets. Some people dont even have sites on their firearms. How can we be sure they know what they're shooting at? As a matter of fact, Widder shoots his shotgun so fast it's probably a safety hazard. After all, that barrel is gonna get real hot. It may not totally melt the wad but its gonna melt part of it, and it'll add up every shot. Maybe we need to set a minimum speed he can shoot it. Or make him stop and show the TO the barrel aint cloggin up too much. These liberal ideals are pretty good. I think we need to adopt them so everybody can be rainbows and sugar plums. 

 

Please allow me to dispelled any malicious rumors about my 97.

It IS NOT true that I still have the wad of the previous shot in my barrel at the same time I am 

firing my follow up shot.   Not a word of that is true.

 

Truth is that the 1st wad has exited the barrel and is in mid-flight towards the target before I fire

my follow up shot..... 

 

Now I know where these rumors come from............... TN W.    

 

..........Widder

 

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